Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since Apoc is objectively better than normal 40k, but also aimed towards more "casual" play, what additional matched play rules do you think would make more "competitive" play more palatable?

Problem
Deep Strike allows you to put a low number of extremely powerful units (e.g. Obliterators) and have multiple weak units on the Battlefield.

Solution
Deep Strike Addendum: No more than half the total Power Level of your army can be set up in Tactical Reserves, even if every unit in your army has this ability.

Problem
DKOK Patrol Farming allows you to draw 20-30 cards per turn and is viable (i.e. doesn't 100% cripple your army) to do in 150PL matches.

Solution
Special Detachments (Option 1): The Commander of a Patrol detachment never gains the WARLORD keyword, even if they are a CHARACTER.
Special Detachments (Option 2): You can include one Special Detachment in your army for every Core Detachment in your army.

Problem
Like non-Matched 40k, there is no faction restriction across detachments.

Solution
Faction Restriction: Your army must always generate a Warmaster trait for your Warmaster. i.e. Your Warmaster must be a WARLORD and share at least one Faction keyword with every other unit in your army (excluding units that have the Fortification Battlefield Role).

Problem
30 card Asset Deck increases RNG and incentivises armies that can tear though the deck and refresh it with Multiple Tiny Detachments.

Solutions
Option 1: Reduce the deck down to 15 cards. No other changes.
Option 2: Reduce the deck down to 15 cards. The deck does not refresh when depleted.
Option 3: Reduce the deck down to 20 cards. Each turn each player draws 4 command assets instead of 1 per WARLORD plus 1. Abilities that "generate one extra Command Asset" still do so.
Option 4: Reduce the deck down to 15 cards. Each player begins with their Command Asset deck drawn and do not discard down to 10 cards. The deck does not refresh when depleted.
Option 5: Reduce the deck down to 20 cards. If you would ever draw a card that would bring your hand to above your hand limit, you instead discard it.

Problem
Warmaster Traits are always random.

Solution
You may pick a Warmaster Trait, or roll two D12 and get both random traits (if the dice rolls are the same, you only get the trait once).

Problem
If the some of the changes to Command Asset generation are made above, the "Master Stratagest" Warlord Trait becomes useless. Also, it's pretty useless regardless.

Solution
Change Master Stratagest to read "Once per battle, if your Warmaster is on the battlefield at the start of the Orders phase, you may take a Command Asset from your Discard pile and add it back to your hand."

And because I know some people will kick up a stink, I am not proposing to use these as House Rules, I am simply brainstorming and hoping GW introduce some form of Matched Play rules.

I agree with all of your points (Special Detachments (Option 1) for sure) except for

Problem
30 card Asset Deck increases RNG and incentivises armies that can tear though the deck and refresh it with Multiple Tiny Detachments.

This, I feel, is solved by removing warlords from patrol detachments and having missions that give VPs for killing detachments. It gives players a tough choice between getting cards and giving up VPs.

Problem
Warmaster Traits are always random.

I don't think that this is a problem. There are some insanely strong warmaster traits on that list. Imagine giving Knights the stealth master trait by choice.

Problem
If the some of the changes to Command Asset generation are made above, the "Master Stratagest" Warlord Trait becomes useless. Also, it's pretty useless regardless.

I don't think this is a problem.

I would add:

Problem: You get too much of an advantage if you use the Twist rules in the random mission generation if 1 player is only 1-2 PL under their opponent.

Solution: Always assume both players are bringing the same agreed upon PL.

Fair enough, the Stealth Master trait needs to be made LIGHT only if not randomly generated. Or just keep the trait random, but that smacks of the old 6th edition random everything.

I agree that there is too much advantage given to the defender. That would need some sort of re-write to equalise effects where the defender wins by default.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fair enough, the Stealth Master trait needs to be made LIGHT only if not randomly generated.

Or made LIGHT only regardless. If something is too powerful to be chosen freely then it's design to have it sometimes appear by RNG and give you the overpowered thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Problem
DKOK Patrol Farming allows you to draw 20-30 cards per turn and is viable (i.e. doesn't 100% cripple your army) to do in 150PL matches.

Solution
Special Detachments (Option 1): The Commander of a Patrol detachment never gains the WARLORD keyword, even if they are a CHARACTER.
Special Detachments (Option 2): You can include one Special Detachment in your army for every Core Detachment in your army.

Remember that "codex" IG can take a 5 point core detachment that has the same card draw. The DKoK patrol is somewhat more efficient in terms of cost per card (and bad at everything else), but even banning it entirely just increases the cost of the card farm a bit. If you really want to deal with the problem then you need a much more comprehensive solution.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fair enough, the Stealth Master trait needs to be made LIGHT only if not randomly generated.

Or made LIGHT only regardless. If something is too powerful to be chosen freely then it's design to have it sometimes appear by RNG and give you the overpowered thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Problem
DKOK Patrol Farming allows you to draw 20-30 cards per turn and is viable (i.e. doesn't 100% cripple your army) to do in 150PL matches.

Solution
Special Detachments (Option 1): The Commander of a Patrol detachment never gains the WARLORD keyword, even if they are a CHARACTER.
Special Detachments (Option 2): You can include one Special Detachment in your army for every Core Detachment in your army.

Remember that "codex" IG can take a 5 point core detachment that has the same card draw. The DKoK patrol is somewhat more efficient in terms of cost per card (and bad at everything else), but even banning it entirely just increases the cost of the card farm a bit. If you really want to deal with the problem then you need a much more comprehensive solution.

Both good points. What if Matched Play only allowed for 5 cards to be drawn at most per turn, and any drawn above five are discarded instead? Or just gave each army a fixed draw? Change the Generate One Command Asset to reshuffle one card in hand and draw a replacement so those abilities don't not work anymore.

Okay. I finally got some time to really sit down and dig into these. Here are my thoughts.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Problem
Deep Strike allows you to put a low number of extremely powerful units (e.g. Obliterators) and have multiple weak units on the Battlefield.

Solution
Deep Strike Addendum: No more than half the total Power Level of your army can be set up in Tactical Reserves, even if every unit in your army has this ability.

The way detachments work puts a pretty big hamper on bits of this. For starters if your detachments commander is in reserves and his units are not then they start the game out of command and risk being removed automatically. Also they cannot be issued an order. So those units stand there doing nothing unless you deepstrike in the commander immediately. Further, while in reserves they do not generate a command asset. So then lets pretend you start the game with the commander on the field and the other units in reserve. Well that commander is now a MASSIVE target and once it dies there goes, presumably, a warlord and no more card is being drawn.

You either need to build entire detachments of weak units which means they will get killed off and loose you card draws or you need to split up your detachments which has it's own draw backs depending on how you split them up.

This seams to be a non issue to me. It has it's own pros and cons that make the choices both good and bad for different reasons.

Problem
DKOK Patrol Farming allows you to draw 20-30 cards per turn and is viable (i.e. doesn't 100% cripple your army) to do in 150PL matches.

Solution
Special Detachments (Option 1): The Commander of a Patrol detachment never gains the WARLORD keyword, even if they are a CHARACTER.
Special Detachments (Option 2): You can include one Special Detachment in your army for every Core Detachment in your army.

1) I am KIND of okay with this. But I would say it would be better to say that Warlords that do not match all Faction Keywords with your Warmaster do not generate command assets. It doesn't hinder a army from making valid patrols with thier own units while hindering others from souping in factions just to generate cards.

2) I would say you can include 3 special detachments still but no more than 1 of any type of special detachment. That way your main detachment can still allow you to bring a patrol and a fortification but not 2-3 patrols.

Problem
Like non-Matched 40k, there is no faction restriction across detachments.

Solution
Faction Restriction: Your army must always generate a Warmaster trait for your Warmaster. i.e. Your Warmaster must be a WARLORD and share at least one Faction keyword with every other unit in your army (excluding units that have the Fortification Battlefield Role).

I think it would be more fair to simply say No more than 2 factions in an army. Combined with what I said above where the warlords that do not share all faction keywords with your warmaster do not generate cards you have a pretty heavy incentive to keep detachments that do not match your warmaster to a minimum.

Problem
30 card Asset Deck increases RNG and incentivises armies that can tear though the deck and refresh it with Multiple Tiny Detachments.

Solutions
Option 1: Reduce the deck down to 15 cards. No other changes.
Option 2: Reduce the deck down to 15 cards. The deck does not refresh when depleted.
Option 3: Reduce the deck down to 20 cards. Each turn each player draws 4 command assets instead of 1 per WARLORD plus 1. Abilities that "generate one extra Command Asset" still do so.
Option 4: Reduce the deck down to 15 cards. Each player begins with their Command Asset deck drawn and do not discard down to 10 cards. The deck does not refresh when depleted.
Option 5: Reduce the deck down to 20 cards. If you would ever draw a card that would bring your hand to above your hand limit, you instead discard it.

1) This just gets you recycling the best 15 cards often. When 2 of my 5 cards are bringing back a dead unit my Nids will be bringing back A LOT of units.
2) Better, but again, I just want the best 15 cards in there and I will get to the things I want faster.
3) This just lets everyone tear through the deck lighting fast. While evening the playing field it evens it on the wrong side of the line, imo.
4) 3 and 2 apply here.
5) Why not do this keeping the deck at 30 cards? Why force the extras into the discard?

I think 5 is your best suggestion but I think it should simply be you can never draw your hand above 10 cards. A hard limit on hand size is a good thing.

Problem
Warmaster Traits are always random.

Solution
You may pick a Warmaster Trait, or roll two D12 and get both random traits (if the dice rolls are the same, you only get the trait once).

I am actually fine with it being random. A little amount of randomness like this can mix up your own strategy at game start.

Problem
If the some of the changes to Command Asset generation are made above, the "Master Stratagest" Warlord Trait becomes useless. Also, it's pretty useless regardless.

Solution
Change Master Stratagest to read "Once per battle, if your Warmaster is on the battlefield at the start of the Orders phase, you may take a Command Asset from your Discard pile and add it back to your hand."

I would change it to the generate command assets phase. Also, why not make it so you can search for any 1 card in your discard or deck and add it to your hand instead of drawing a card. Shuffle your deck if you searched your deck when you are done.