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The books and... one model IF you play UM or WS. Two if you play both?

I mean on the one hand, it'll be nice to look the codex over for a week or so - assuming the rest of the models (full Infiltrator/Impulsor/Eliminator kits, etc) go on pre-order next Saturday when you pick up your codex. You can pick up the 'Dex read over it for a couple days and still preorder Monday for a Saturday delivery. But given all the hype/leaks, I was really expecting at least the Impulsor and the Infiltrator kit.

Be sure to check the upcoming pre-orders post on Warhammer Community that goes up on Sundays, 1PM Eastern time. They'll accurately tell you what goes up for pre-order on the following Saturday and give you a little forewarning.

It's not much, but at least it puts the rulebooks in people's hands first so they can make informed decisions before buying the new models, even if they want them right away. I can't complain about that.

As for myself, since I'm waiting for what Imperial Fists get (I'm hoping for dice most of all), I'm not bothered either way by what happens in the meantime. I like the new Khan, though, so it's certainly good that he'll be out immediately.

I like having the codex in hand before pre-orders of the new units come out TBH let's me make my decisions on hwat to order fully informed.

If you buy digital, and don't get any sleep, you'll get a few hours to look it over before the model pre-orders go up.

I'm mostly annoyed that Khan lost his bike. That's kinda the WS whole thing and it shows once again the problem of no model no rules decision that GW took from the chapter house lawsuit.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm mostly annoyed that Khan lost his bike. That's kinda the WS whole thing and it shows once again the problem of no model no rules decision that GW took from the chapter house lawsuit.

Frankly, I'm kinda relieved that he did.

Between the Khan on Bike and Shrike with Jump Pack things, the actual flavors of White Scar(huntsmen and rapid assault) and Raven Guard(guerilla warfare specialists) was diluted to the point of "Here's one thing they're all really, really good at".
Read some of the fluff out of the Heresy stuff, there was a fairly cool piece with some White Scars hunting the Mournival(Horus' personal council) to see them more in the huntsman guise.

In any case, down the road there's room for Khan to get a sweet new Bike Prime just like Shrike could get a Jump Pack Prime or whatever.

Primaris are going to be getting bikes later. Its just a matter of time.

HoundsofDemos wrote:I'm mostly annoyed that Khan lost his bike. That's kinda the WS whole thing and it shows once again the problem of no model no rules decision that GW took from the chapter house lawsuit.

Didn't the old Khan also have an on-foot model?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:I'm mostly annoyed that Khan lost his bike. That's kinda the WS whole thing and it shows once again the problem of no model no rules decision that GW took from the chapter house lawsuit.

Didn't the old Khan also have an on-foot model?

It wasn't even an "also" thing. If you bought the Khan for Bike conversion kit--it came with the on-foot version too.

To clarify, I'm annoyed he lost the option for a bike. Every bit of fluff and BL novel has him in the saddle for the most part. It wouldn't kill GW to break the no model, no rules every once and a while.

 Kanluwen wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm mostly annoyed that Khan lost his bike. That's kinda the WS whole thing and it shows once again the problem of no model no rules decision that GW took from the chapter house lawsuit.

Frankly, I'm kinda relieved that he did.

Between the Khan on Bike and Shrike with Jump Pack things, the actual flavors of White Scar(huntsmen and rapid assault) and Raven Guard(guerilla warfare specialists) was diluted to the point of "Here's one thing they're all really, really good at".
Read some of the fluff out of the Heresy stuff, there was a fairly cool piece with some White Scars hunting the Mournival(Horus' personal council) to see them more in the huntsman guise.

In any case, down the road there's room for Khan to get a sweet new Bike Prime just like Shrike could get a Jump Pack Prime or whatever.

The bike was part of their huntsman thing. Most of the chapters fluff is a mishmash of historical stuff. The WS were mongol horsemen, and they added the fox hunting from horseback chasing down the quarry to double down on it. Shrike is batman. Only instead of a grapple gun to appear and disappear he uses a jump pack.

and now we have grapnal guns so jump pack is unneeded?

BrianDavion wrote:
and now we have grapnal guns so jump pack is unneeded?

Only if the gun gives 12" move, FLY, and Deep Strike. That's one of the problems with Reivers. They get - at best - only 2/3 of of the Jump Pack Utility - Move, Deep Strike, FLY - for double the price.

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are going to be getting bikes later. Its just a matter of time.

Will we have to buy a new codex for that as well?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are going to be getting bikes later. Its just a matter of time.

Will we have to buy a new codex for that as well?

if we do no big worry chances are they'll be 2 or so years off minimum.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are going to be getting bikes later. Its just a matter of time.

Will we have to buy a new codex for that as well?

if we do no big worry chances are they'll be 2 or so years off minimum.

That's both too far away for the plastic and too soon for the book for my liking.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
That's both too far away for the plastic and too soon for the book for my liking.

If they didn't come out with Bikes for White Scars, they're not coming soon. If we don't see a Primaris-ified Shrike with Supplement Raven Guard, I doubt we'll see Jump Assault Primaris either. The next time we can potentially see Primaris Bikes will be the next SM or DA codex which is likely 9th at the earliest. Jump Assault Primaris - Raven Guard or Blood Angels.

I would hope/expect to see a lot of new special characters, some Primaris, and some older ones will continue to cross the Rubicon Primaris. I'd expect to see a Chapter Master, Captain, Libby, and Chaplain for each chapter, even the successors (except a Libby for BT) who get folded into their Primogenitor book. The lack of spoilers and leaks from the White Scars supplement suggests I'm going to be disappointed. But not half as disappointed as the people who bought that supplement to get one datasheet, some psychic powers, and a couple pages of stratagems. I mean they could have instructions to build Jubal Khan with a Captain on Bike kit, and the White Scars upgrade pack but I doubt it. There are 12 data sheets in Supplement: UM If the Salamanders, White Scars, Ravenguard and Iron Hands all get only 1 - if if it's the first one for the Iron Hands - they're going to be pissed.

Once again:

Raven Guard != Jump Packs. That's lazy writing from the Bad Old Days.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Once again:

Raven Guard != Jump Packs. That's lazy writing from the Bad Old Days.

Once Again, it's their bat-cape. Unless they're scouts, then it's their Camo Cloak. Each chapter usually gets identified with a couple of basic units for their theme- DA are Bikes and Termies, BA are Dreads and Jump Marines. SW are/were Devs, Termies, and maybe Jump Marines. IF are Cents and Devs. BT are Tacs and Scouts. White Scars are bikes and Rhinos. RG are Jump Marines and Scouts. And their only special character is wearing one. If they're going to release jump assault primaris, its likely going to coincide with at least one of the current Jump Assault 1.0 Marines crossing the Rubicon Primaris. So they can sell the Special Character models.

If they're going to release jump assault Primaris, it's going to be with Blood Angels.

Why? As mentioned, they literally stripped everything jump pack from the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics. Non-Primaris Shrike currently is the only booster for Jump Packs in their list of stuff.

And the model for Shrike is from when he was a Captain, supposedly running around behind Ork lines with little in the way of ammo or resupply.

Now, if we're likely to see anything? It might be that since he's a Chapter Master--Shrike will come with his own 'bodyguard' unit of Primaris'd Jump Packs if they go that route.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If they're going to release jump assault Primaris, it's going to be with Blood Angels.

Why? As mentioned, they literally stripped everything jump pack from the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics. Non-Primaris Shrike currently is the only booster for Jump Packs in their list of stuff.

Jump Infantry don't get the cover, -1 to hit bonus for when they're between melee? Man that sucks.

And the model for Shrike is from when he was a Captain, supposedly running around behind Ork lines with little in the way of ammo or resupply.

All SC models are a snapshot of one place in time. That doesn't mean they aren't the face of the franchise.

Now, if we're likely to see anything? It might be that since he's a Chapter Master--Shrike will come with his own 'bodyguard' unit of Primaris'd Jump Packs if they go that route.

They may change him up away from a Jump Pack, even if they don't they may change him up to an Inceptor SC and he'll end up with Relic Bolt/Plasma guns. If they move away from the Jump Pack, they'll likely move to Phobos - because as mentioned their deal is Jump Infantry and Scouts. He could turn into a SC/Relic Chapter Master Phobos Captain for the Camo Cloak and sniper rifle, or a Chapter Master Phobos/Reiver Lieutenant for the Double Combat knifes to keep that aesthetic.

I'd guess they're torn between keeping him, and them, in assault-y jump packs as a Vanilla Marine parallel to Blood Angels, or going scout/phobos/sniper for something unique other chapters don't have for a theme.

You are aware that the previous iteration of Raven Guard's Chapter Tactics had a secondary component strictly devoted to Jump Pack related units yeah?

Winged Deliverance: Raven Guard units with the Jump unit type may use their jump packs in both the Movement and Assault phases of the same turn. Furthermore, when they make Hammer of Wrath attacks, Raven Guard models can re-roll failed To Wound rolls.

That's what I'm referring to when I said "they literally stripped everything jump pack from the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics". If you want to be disingenuous and pretend that I was referring to "jump pack units can't benefit!", that's your perogative--but it really makes you look bad.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You are aware that the previous iteration of Raven Guard's Chapter Tactics had a secondary component strictly devoted to Jump Pack related units yeah?

Winged Deliverance: Raven Guard units with the Jump unit type may use their jump packs in both the Movement and Assault phases of the same turn. Furthermore, when they make Hammer of Wrath attacks, Raven Guard models can re-roll failed To Wound rolls.

That's what I'm referring to when I said "they literally stripped everything jump pack from the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics". If you want to be disingenuous and pretend that I was referring to "jump pack units can't benefit!", that's your perogative--but it really makes you look bad.

It was Reductio Ad Absurdum. If you want to talk disingenuous, we can talk about claiming Raven Guard aren't about Jump Infantry when they ONLY SC they get is... Jump Infantry.

Except my argument is, and always has been, predicated upon Bad Design.

It's hard to accurately represent a "guerilla warfare" oriented faction in a wargame which is played on a pick-up game to pick-up game basis rather than a campaign related basis.

Somewhere down the line(around the time of introduction of then-Captain Shrike and the Ultramarines' Telion), they started pushing Jump Pack related stuff hard for Raven Guard while doing very little to differentiate it from Blood Angels and their Jump Pack related stuff and ignoring the Scout side of things entirely. It wasn't until Kau'yon/Angels of Death that the Scout side of things really started showing back up in full with a whopping two Formations that used Scouts(Shadowstrike Kill-Team and Pinion Demi-Company) and a single Relic(the Sniper Rifle Nihilus) that required it be placed on a Scout Sergeant or Veteran Scout Sergeant.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Except my argument is, and always has been, predicated upon Bad Design.

It's hard to accurately represent a "guerilla warfare" oriented faction in a wargame which is played on a pick-up game to pick-up game basis rather than a campaign related basis.

Somewhere down the line(around the time of introduction of then-Captain Shrike and the Ultramarines' Telion), they started pushing Jump Pack related stuff hard for Raven Guard while doing very little to differentiate it from Blood Angels and their Jump Pack related stuff and ignoring the Scout side of things entirely. It wasn't until Kau'yon/Angels of Death that the Scout side of things really started showing back up in full with a whopping two Formations that used Scouts(Shadowstrike Kill-Team and Pinion Demi-Company) and a single Relic(the Sniper Rifle Nihilus) that required it be placed on a Scout Sergeant or Veteran Scout Sergeant.

I think they have been pretty consistent.

Scouts gather intelligence through stealth, then the Raven Guard execute sudden decapitating strikes on enemy command or logistics. They favor jump troops, land speeders, and flyers because they provide the speed and precision needed.

Debatable.

Scouts gather intelligence, provide sabotage work, interdiction and assassination.

Raven Guard were one of the Chapters, alongside of Space Wolves, said to employ full Battle-Brothers or Veterans in their Scout Squads. That mention vanished when Shrike and Korvydae(the Master of the 10th...who for whatever reason is running around with a jump pack and a thunder hammer?) got introduced however.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Debatable.

Scouts gather intelligence, provide sabotage work, interdiction and assassination.

Raven Guard were one of the Chapters, alongside of Space Wolves, said to employ full Battle-Brothers or Veterans in their Scout Squads. That mention vanished when Shrike and Korvydae(the Master of the 10th...who for whatever reason is running around with a jump pack and a thunder hammer?) got introduced however.

Not sure if you saw, but in spite of being Squatted at the beginning of 8th, Korvydae is actually back in Apocalypse and has his own datasheet. His special rule is +1 to hit for jump units and scouts. He still has his thunderhammer, but has lost his jumpback.

This leads me to strongly suspect he may end up in the Raven Guard supplement.

if one space marine chapter got redefined by the introduction of primaris it'd be raven guard. prior to shadowspear, the only stealthy recon etc marines where scouts. not full armor clad battle brothers. with vanguards we now have an entire subline of marines suited for the task. I could see ravenguard slowly being made "the vanguard marine faction"

 Valentine009 wrote:

Not sure if you saw, but in spite of being Squatted at the beginning of 8th, Korvydae is actually back in Apocalypse and has his own datasheet. His special rule is +1 to hit for jump units and scouts. He still has his thunderhammer, but has lost his jumpback.

This leads me to strongly suspect he may end up in the Raven Guard supplement.

If he were in the standard GW collection? I'd be inclined to agree--but he's still caged under the FW setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
if one space marine chapter got redefined by the introduction of primaris it'd be raven guard. prior to shadowspear, the only stealthy recon etc marines where scouts. not full armor clad battle brothers. with vanguards we now have an entire subline of marines suited for the task. I could see ravenguard slowly being made "the vanguard marine faction"

And the more interesting part is that Vanguard aren't "just" from the 10th Company. Any Company can have them--theoretically.