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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 07:24:17
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Guarding Guardian
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As of right now, there's almost no reason to take wraithcannons over D-scythes. Not only do D-scythes do similar damage vs tanks to the wraithcannon, but they are also fantastic at killing infantry. While Wraithcannons are kinda left with nothing to do once they shoot at the enemies big bad tank.
My idea is this: On a wound roll of 6+, the wraithcannon deals d6 mortal wounds INSTEAD of d6 regular damage. This would allow them to not be completely useless vs infantry since mortal wounds spread out between models, and give them a small boost to damage vs tanks that have an invuln, which would give us a reason to potentially take them over a D-scythe if you expect your opponent to have a lot of armor with invuln saves. Vs tanks with no invuln however, there damage output remains the same, which tbh isn't bad considering they are already pretty good tank busters, they just are not versatile enough, however, for their points cost. And D-scythes are still dealing 2x the damage vs MEQ and GEQ (Where as before it was 4x) so they'll still have plenty of reason to be taken.
Math for a unit of 5:
D-scythes: vs GEQ = 8.33 wounds, MEQ = 8.33 wounds, TEQ = 5.56 wounds, Knight EQ = 3.33 wounds
Old wraithcannons: vs GEQ = 2.78 wounds, MEQ = 2.78 wounds, TEQ = 3.4 wounds, Knight EQ = 3.89 wounds
New wraithcannons: vs GEQ = 4.17 wounds, MEQ = 4.17 wounds, TEQ = 4.66 wounds, Knight EQ = 4.86 wounds
This also fits thematically since these wraithcannons are literally ripping holes into the warp and sucking people inside. So having a small chance to inflict mortal wounds fits the lore IMO.
What do you all think?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 08:48:30
Eldar 6000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 07:49:43
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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This is a terrible idea. Like, seriously?
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 08:42:07
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Guarding Guardian
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Care to actually give an explanation rather than just act like a dick?
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Eldar 6000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 16:56:05
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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1. Mortal Wounds are already a bad mechanic and we don't need more.
2. No gak the Cannon is supposed to be worse than a Flamer for killing hordes. Why would you try and make it better at that?
You could give a fixed damage profile instead.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 17:03:11
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Fixture of Dakka
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The idea being "still not great vs hordes, but not worthless", I assume?
After all, the WraithFlamer is much closer to the WraithCannon vs the big targets (Knights and such).
As a whole, the numbers you're getting aren't problematic - it's still roughly half what the Flamer gets. But Mortal Wounds are just bad as a mechanic. Even on a roll of 6 to-wound.
You might get more buyin from "Cause an additional D3 wounds" or "Cause an additional 3 Wounds" than "Does D6 MW instead of W". Even if your suggestion doesn't math out better, those sorts of things are already in-game and as such are more pallateable.
Now, beyond balance, I'm also not a fan of Wraithcannons getting better vs Hordes. CWE are the specialization faction (less so on Wraiths, but still). So their weapons being worse vs non-optimal targets is ideal. If anything, the Scythes punch too hard against heavy targets. I'd rather the Wraithcannon be attractive for the "Must kill big thing" role, although they pay a premium for the firepower they bring.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 18:41:48
Subject: Re:Wraithcannon idea
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Guarding Guardian
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Tbh all 4 wraithguard/blade variants hit hard vs tanks. It's just that 3 of the 4 also hit hard vs infantry which leaves wraithcannons out in the cold. I though about some way to fix that.
One way would be to boost the wraithcannons number of shots, however that would also boost the tank damage they do which tbh would make them way too good, and it doesn't really fit their lore/theme. If you boost strength that really won't help vs the majority of infantry, but will again unintentionally boost damage vs tanks again. And if you boost damage that won't help against the vast, vast majority of infantry but will certainly make them annihilate tanks. So I figured mortal wounds would be the best option since that will increase infantry deaths a decent amount while hardly impacting their already good damage vs tanks.
And the reason these units need to have at least some versatility unlike most of Eldar's other options is because these guys are extremely expensive in comparison to a lot of our other units. If you spend points on wraithcannons as well as the wave serpent needed to transport them, and then show up to a game and kill the enemies only tank, now you have 329 points of useless guys walking around. D-scythes, wraithswords, and wraithaxes can all decimate that tank nearly as efficiently and then still contribute in other ways. Wraithcannons would need a drastic points decrease in comparison to the other variants im order to be worth taking over the other 3.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 18:43:33
Eldar 6000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 19:38:04
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Fixture of Dakka
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That's where, if you were to do this, the "D3 MW on a to-wound of 6" would be the better option. Still not good vs Hordes, but better. And the weapon is still that one really deadly single shot.
They used to have ID on a 6-to-wound. There aren't many weapons in the game that are supposed to be deadlier (per shot) than a Wraithcannon. Maybe a Railgun, probably a Volcano Cannon or a Pulsar, but not much else. And not just in the "Absolutely destroy the target, physically" sense either - they actually distort *reality itself*, damaging the barrier between the Materium and the Warp.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 20:35:17
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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If it was ID on a 6 (everyone only remembers them getting S: D) a simple rule saying the weapon is now D6 instead of rolling for the damage. I'd rather just a straight damage profile of 4 though. Kills most minor characters and bigger critters.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 21:04:14
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Fixture of Dakka
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Wraithcannons were always Strength D - as in Distort!
More seriously, they were S10 ID-on-6 in a game that didn't have 'Strength D' - the highest legal S was 10. When S D became a legitimate rule in 40k (7th Ed), they were written as S D. Automatically Appended Next Post: (It might be more reasonable to say S D went from S10 to it's own special rule. It was the rule, not the Wraithcannon that changed.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 21:05:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 21:26:38
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Guarding Guardian
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Bharring wrote:That's where, if you were to do this, the "D3 MW on a to-wound of 6" would be the better option. Still not good vs Hordes, but better. And the weapon is still that one really deadly single shot.
I'm not against that, so d3 mortal wounds in addition to the d6 damage. Although it WILL boost their damage vs vehicles more than a d6 mortal instead of regular d6 would. But I guess they could stand to be a bit stronger in that department to differentiate them more from D-Scythes. I still think the d6 is more balanced but tbh I'll take whatever I can get.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 21:28:03
Eldar 6000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 21:29:43
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Fixture of Dakka
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That's where people get weird; +d3 MW is more similar to what already exists (lots of things get +MW on 6s to wound, nothing I know of becomes MW on 6s). So even if it's not really less powerful, it's much more acceptable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 22:48:32
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Walking Dead Wraithlord
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I get math hammer is all good and that but when are you ever going to be using those scythes? You cant DS them in and if you want to slog them up the field, good luck having some left to shoot at something worth while... A 5 man squad in a serpent is not the same as a blob of 10 cannons out of DS.
I think guard should get battle focus so they can advance and fire the cannons without penalty as well as cannons being assult 2.
Scythes should be D3 dmg and at current cost I think they offer two different play styles.
Just putting it out there!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 22:56:10
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Dakka Veteran
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It should be 3+D3. The idea that a weaithcannon can do 1 damage is absolute stupidity. Thanks GW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/12 22:56:18
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Fixture of Dakka
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Am I the only weirdo who actually thinks wraithcannons fill a reasonably distinctive niche as-is?
The scythes are great if I'm running a squad out of a serpent. They clear hordes and vehicles reasonably well. The cannons, on the other hand, usually end up coming out of deepstrike as a backfield distraction carnifex.
Basically, the scythes are more versatile, but the cannons can hit out of deepstrike while saving me 25-50 points.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/13 12:29:55
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They should have a 16" range, remove models from the board on a 1-3, and fling them randomly about on a 4-6. Unless it's a vehicle and then it should just automatically be damaged with the chance of destruction.
Well at least that's what they did in 2nd Ed.
Wraithcannons are basically portable vortex grenade launchers, as are any D weapons the eldar use.
They open a warp portal and kill you with it....
What they should probably do, is have a fixed wound roll - 2+ for wraith cannons and bigger, 3+ for scythes or something.
Then they'd be firing witch blades at the enemy with better penetrating and damage.
But imo a vortex weapon really shouldn't care what you are, is will take a chunk out of you like the Time travel field in the Terminator
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/13 13:09:24
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Fixture of Dakka
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One of the few weapons that legitimately cares not what your defenses are, even invulns. No matter how big the naval battery (or other weapon) you fire at a Bloodletter, it may simply not exist when you try to kill it. But not even not existing can protect you from distort weaponry.
That said, I do find their rules sufficient for their role and fluff. Something nastier would be better, fluff-wise, but what they have is "good enough", and there are bigger problems with the game.
I just felt I could help shore up the request and make a more acceptable version of it/help get the conversation started. I'm fine either way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/08/15 08:39:43
Subject: Wraithcannon idea
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Hellebore wrote:They should have a 16" range, remove models from the board on a 1-3, and fling them randomly about on a 4-6. Unless it's a vehicle and then it should just automatically be damaged with the chance of destruction.
Well at least that's what they did in 2nd Ed.
Wraithcannons are basically portable vortex grenade launchers, as are any D weapons the eldar use.
They open a warp portal and kill you with it....
What they should probably do, is have a fixed wound roll - 2+ for wraith cannons and bigger, 3+ for scythes or something.
Then they'd be firing witch blades at the enemy with better penetrating and damage.
But imo a vortex weapon really shouldn't care what you are, is will take a chunk out of you like the Time travel field in the Terminator
Looking at the current rules, the Mortal Wound system actually isn't bad for representing vortex damage as you can't avoid it, but it doesn't seem characteristic to splat hordes.
I would probably just make all wraith/distort weapons always cause 1/d3/ d6 mortal wounds in addition to any damage they cause if they hit (with their current profiles, depending on the size of the weapon, so the standard Wraithcannon does 1, Distort Cannon does D3 and the Wraithcannon does D6 mortal wounds automatically on hit).
This represents the ability to punch through anything with ease, but the warp rift size wouldn't necessarily always land a kill shot (it just landed and eradicated a non-essential part of the vehicle, like a Guardsman crewman instead of the engines for example). The larger D-cannons cause bigger rifts which have a higher probability of tearing up more, and suck more people into the vortex when hitting groups (which is flavourful and makes sense).
The 'D-scythe' weapons should not cause normal damage; instead they just do 1 mortal wound for each hit (the number of hits they cause depends on the size of the weapon). Although to be honest, their current implementation is actually fine too as I understand they don't make big distort holes like the cannon type weapons.
In fact, with the introduction of Mortal Wounds, it's actually mind-boggling why Distort Weapons weren't made to just cause them. The rule seems tailor made for Distort damage.
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