Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2019/08/12 18:54:27
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
I do think it’ll be interesting to see. You’re paying a ton of cps and your screening bodies for doctrines. If you didn’t need the base doctrine active to use your chapter super bonus then tbh I’m not sure it’s always worth it.
2019/08/12 19:17:39
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/12 19:31:44
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Marines rarely ever "souped" outside their dex before. Intra-dex soup will probably still happen - especially if things like the BT "4+ Deny" stratagem still exists.
2019/08/12 19:44:03
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Reemule wrote: What I meant was like a army that is: Battalion of Ultra, Bat of Space Wolves, Gman. Technically soup, but its all SM soup.
At some point, these should be able to soup and not lose Doctrine.
With the potency of doctrines and chapter tactics affecting units differently you are basically encouraged to mix chapters but that really isn't soup. Soup is when you mix up codex. Playing out of your codex is a mono build.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 19:44:28
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/12 19:45:21
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.
Weren’t you the one who didn’t think the doctrine -1 ap was that great? Of everyone I’d think you’d be most likely to still soup. If you don’t want the -1ap to like 50% of your army in a given turn, then take a loyal32 and put all those extra cps to paying for more stratagem uses now that there’s more useful strats.
As I said, if you don’t already have a chapter super doctrine then I think the loyal 32 is still a very viable option to consider. You’ll get to use a lot more powerful strats than pure marine players.
As to marine soup, I assume all noncodex will get Angels of Death and count, though then again you’re getting a Codex doctrine bonus while allying with noncodex chapters...will see.
2019/08/12 19:52:58
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
I really hope they give more bonuses to armies to not soup. like there should be a penalty for having forces who are not the same force like they may "work with" other forces but work best by themselves. hopefully chaos, eldar of all types and tyranids get the same. bonus points if they give necrons something too, they really need it.
10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
2019/08/12 19:57:22
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.
Weren’t you the one who didn’t think the doctrine -1 ap was that great? Of everyone I’d think you’d be most likely to still soup. If you don’t want the -1ap to like 50% of your army in a given turn, then take a loyal32 and put all those extra cps to paying for more stratagem uses now that there’s more useful strats.
As I said, if you don’t already have a chapter super doctrine then I think the loyal 32 is still a very viable option to consider. You’ll get to use a lot more powerful strats than pure marine players.
As to marine soup, I assume all noncodex will get Angels of Death and count, though then again you’re getting a Codex doctrine bonus while allying with noncodex chapters...will see.
It's not that great because it is situational. On heavies it's rare your AP will go over their invo. On light arms (turn 2). plenty of popular infantry just have a base invo. I'm not going to turn down free stats though. extra AP on your bolters isn't getting you very far man is all I am saying. You are losing reroll all wounds to get it. It is a net loss. Plus you can't even soup in command tanks or knights anymore to cover your weaknesses.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/12 20:01:48
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.
Weren’t you the one who didn’t think the doctrine -1 ap was that great? Of everyone I’d think you’d be most likely to still soup. If you don’t want the -1ap to like 50% of your army in a given turn, then take a loyal32 and put all those extra cps to paying for more stratagem uses now that there’s more useful strats.
As I said, if you don’t already have a chapter super doctrine then I think the loyal 32 is still a very viable option to consider. You’ll get to use a lot more powerful strats than pure marine players.
As to marine soup, I assume all noncodex will get Angels of Death and count, though then again you’re getting a Codex doctrine bonus while allying with noncodex chapters...will see.
It's not that great because it is situational. On heavies it's rare your AP will go over their invo. On light arms (turn 2). plenty of popular infantry just have a base invo. I'm not going to turn down free stats though. extra AP on your bolters isn't getting you very far man is all I am saying. You are losing reroll all wounds to get it. It is a net loss. Plus you can't even soup in command tanks or knights anymore to cover your weaknesses.
You clearly haven't been paying attention the doctrines only change if you choose to advance the doctrine.
It can stay in the heavy weapons for all 6 turns if you really wanted it to.
2019/08/12 20:38:13
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh Considering you basically can't soup with marines now. I think I am going to not soup.
Weren’t you the one who didn’t think the doctrine -1 ap was that great? Of everyone I’d think you’d be most likely to still soup. If you don’t want the -1ap to like 50% of your army in a given turn, then take a loyal32 and put all those extra cps to paying for more stratagem uses now that there’s more useful strats.
As I said, if you don’t already have a chapter super doctrine then I think the loyal 32 is still a very viable option to consider. You’ll get to use a lot more powerful strats than pure marine players.
As to marine soup, I assume all noncodex will get Angels of Death and count, though then again you’re getting a Codex doctrine bonus while allying with noncodex chapters...will see.
It's not that great because it is situational. On heavies it's rare your AP will go over their invo.
You must have never played against Serpents, Leman Russes, Reapers, Guardsmen, Guardians, Shadow Spectres, Crimson Hunters, or....
You'll go on for *pages* about how -1AP on a Brightlance is so much bigger a deal than either S9 or 48" range. But suddenly your Lascannons get that -1AP *too*, and it's trash?
On light arms (turn 2). plenty of popular infantry just have a base invo.
Harlies and Demons, sure. But Guardians, Guardsmen, Ork Boyz, Necrons, Cultists, Gaunts, Custodes, and just about everything else? Not many infantry units have invulns equal to their Sv. And those that do are less common meta-wise than those that don't by a *wide* margin.
I'm not going to turn down free stats though. extra AP on your bolters isn't getting you very far man is all I am saying.
AP-1 is the most efficient AP change in the game. Against the toughest armor (2+), you double your firepower. While paying the absolute minimum to get any AP.
You are losing reroll all wounds to get it. It is a net loss.
You're losing reroll all wounds in an aura for 20% of your total points. And a detatchment slot. So you can have 25% more boys and toys with AP-1 in exchange for the rerolls. That's not a small change. And you're not locked into UM. And you're not locked into castleing inside a bubble. And everything but your infantry is getting CTs. And you're getting much better CTs. And more attacks. And points cuts. You're getting a lot more than Doctrines in exchange for Gman's wounds aura.
Plus you can't even soup in command tanks or knights anymore to cover your weaknesses.
You can, if covering said weaknesses is worth the loss of doctrines. So a much-maligned way to play Marines becomes a tradeoff instead of an automatic choice.
Your arguments aren't even internally consistent.
2019/08/12 21:24:32
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.
Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).
It never ends well
2019/08/12 21:39:41
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
With one point of AP on boltguns(/stormbolters/etc) across the board, you are now at least 20% better against almost all hordes (mostly just demons and Harlies it doesn't impact), 50% better vs MEQ, and 100% better vs TEQ. So your small arms now handle everything but vehicles better.
You'll handle vehicles better on T1. But you can invest even more of your army in AT, as your anti-infantry/GEQ/MEQ/TEQ stuff now has much more mileage after T1.
I'm not saying that one set of rules dramatically changes the whole meta, but it is a substantial change to Marines.
2019/08/12 21:40:12
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
I really would like to soup my iron hands with my AdMech (which was always my intent with these armies), but we'll see. I don't think I could justify the loss of doctrines.
Honestly if the trade-off is that marines are better without guard or knights, then I'm all for it and won't look back.
2019/08/12 21:43:03
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
since my Space Marines don't use Codex: Space Marines, I don't get doctrines, so it doesn't matter to me anyway.
That said, with a lot of stuff getting buffs, it might see use, but I'm definitely still going to have Guardsmen hanging around for their CP presence.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 21:54:03
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/08/12 21:46:02
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Stormonu wrote: A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.
Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).
If it was just the -1AP nope, fat chance. However there's extra bonus depending on chapter. Always count as stationary for ultramarines for example. Not sure what white scars got and others haven't been told yet. But by souping up you lose -1AP AND that extra bonus. That adds bit extra ??? to the question which is the new optimum. Maybe it's still soup but at least even in that case gap decreases so those who don't want to soup aren't 100% shooting themselves to foot.
Ability for ultras to move and shoot at 100% effect is pretty good for example along with -1AP. Makes trying to footslog into them nightmare.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/13 06:18:51
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/08/13 06:36:45
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
I soup'ed before it was soup. I took an Allied squad (or two) of Cadians I had painted up as Ultramar PDF - i.e. a blue/white color scheme with iconography way back in 2nd Edition after reading some Ultramarine Black Library novel about a Sergeant training/Hero-Marine'ing a Guard Squad. I want to say it was Uriel Ventris book and the Sergeant was Pasanius but that was a couple decades ago.
Haven't souped since they named it soup'ing. I've got too many units sitting on the shelf waiting for their turn to cycle into a list and trigger the "what does that do" questions.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2019/08/13 06:38:29
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Stormonu wrote: A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.
Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).
If it was just the -1AP nope, fat chance. However there's extra bonus depending on chapter. Always count as stationary for ultramarines for example. Not sure what white scars got and others haven't been told yet. But by souping up you lose -1AP AND that extra bonus. That adds bit extra ??? to the question which is the new optimum. Maybe it's still soup but at least even in that case gap decreases so those who don't want to soup aren't 100% shooting themselves to foot.
Ability for ultras to move and shoot at 100% effect is pretty good for example along with -1AP. Makes trying to footslog into them nightmare.
In assault doctrine White Scars get +1 Damage to their melee weapons.
2019/08/13 07:08:46
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Stormonu wrote: A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.
Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).
If it was just the -1AP nope, fat chance. However there's extra bonus depending on chapter. Always count as stationary for ultramarines for example. Not sure what white scars got and others haven't been told yet. But by souping up you lose -1AP AND that extra bonus. That adds bit extra ??? to the question which is the new optimum. Maybe it's still soup but at least even in that case gap decreases so those who don't want to soup aren't 100% shooting themselves to foot.
Ability for ultras to move and shoot at 100% effect is pretty good for example along with -1AP. Makes trying to footslog into them nightmare.
In assault doctrine White Scars get +1 Damage to their melee weapons.
Ok. That doesn't sound universally good enough for me to drop souping I think. Plenty armies that use mostly 1 wound models as core where this would be useless. Could be wrong though but depending on white scar stratagems more CP's could be better than that. Losing ultramarine's super doctrine hurts more though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/13 07:09:01
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/08/13 07:13:04
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Stormonu wrote: A one point change in AP on a subsection of weapons is enough to really make people consider dropping soup? That's insane.
Personally, I don't do soup anyway - though by the fluff of my custom chapter really should (Grey Knights, Dark Angels, maybe Deathwatch, Imperial Guard).
If it was just the -1AP nope, fat chance. However there's extra bonus depending on chapter. Always count as stationary for ultramarines for example. Not sure what white scars got and others haven't been told yet. But by souping up you lose -1AP AND that extra bonus. That adds bit extra ??? to the question which is the new optimum. Maybe it's still soup but at least even in that case gap decreases so those who don't want to soup aren't 100% shooting themselves to foot.
Ability for ultras to move and shoot at 100% effect is pretty good for example along with -1AP. Makes trying to footslog into them nightmare.
In assault doctrine White Scars get +1 Damage to their melee weapons.
Ok. That doesn't sound universally good enough for me to drop souping I think. Plenty armies that use mostly 1 wound models as core where this would be useless. Could be wrong though but depending on white scar stratagems more CP's could be better than that. Losing ultramarine's super doctrine hurts more though.
It makes D5 TH a thing, however the game is normally over by turn 3 so it's hard to get to that assault doctrine. An the reason why TH went to 40 points for characters.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/13 07:15:42
2019/08/13 07:27:03
Subject: SM players, are you going to go pure, or stick with Soup?
Yeah but how often D5 over D4 is really going to change the result of game compared to cheap bodies and extra CP?
Isn't there stratagem to hasten up doctrine change though so you could get it by turn 2 at least? Main assaults tends to happen on T2 anyway after chaff is cleared so that doesn't sound too bad. Though for stratagems you need CP which means soup has advantage again.