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 Xenomancers wrote:
you still have a 2000 point army so 1000 points must be on the table even if all of those 2000 points are exempt.

Exempt:
"free from an obligation or liability imposed on others"

So exempt does not mean exempt? If you still have to follow tactical reserves even if your entire army is exempt, then what does this rule do exactly? It seems pretty silly to look at this as "This says they're exempt, but they're not exempt." I know GW can't write rules well, but this stance is pretty silly. If a 2,000 point army has 500 points exempt from the reserves rule, then it has 1500 points that it applies to. Half of that, being 750, is what needs to be on the board. If you have 1500 exempt, you have 500 it applies to, and need 250 on the board. Saying that the rest of your army still has to follow the reserves rule for the full 2000 points (so 1000 on the board) is going against what it says, it doesn't say only the turn restriction, it says the tactical reserve rule, the whole thing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

GW can't write rules - that isn't my fault. I think it is pretty clear what they are trying to do here. They are trying to allow you to deep strike turn 1 in a pod and also allow you to deep strike turn 4, 5, or 6.

True, which doesn't change the fact that your entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule when it's in pods. Intended ? Maybe not, we will have to wait for the codec FAQ.

Cleric wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
you still have a 2000 point army so 1000 points must be on the table even if all of those 2000 points are exempt.

Exempt:
"free from an obligation or liability imposed on others"

So exempt does not mean exempt? If you still have to follow tactical reserves even if your entire army is exempt, then what does this rule do exactly? It seems pretty silly to look at this as "This says they're exempt, but they're not exempt." I know GW can't write rules well, but this stance is pretty silly. If a 2,000 point army has 500 points exempt from the reserves rule, then it has 1500 points that it applies to. Half of that, being 750, is what needs to be on the board. If you have 1500 exempt, you have 500 it applies to, and need 250 on the board. Saying that the rest of your army still has to follow the reserves rule for the full 2000 points (so 1000 on the board) is going against what it says, it doesn't say only the turn restriction, it says the tactical reserve rule, the whole thing.

its saying the tactical reserves rule applys to you army and the number of units you need on the field is calculated prior to deployment only at deployment do the units in pods become exempt - its a timing issue the pods themselves would arguably be exempt reguardless but not the content

 p5freak wrote:

True, which doesn't change the fact that your entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule when it's in pods. Intended ? Maybe not, we will have to wait for the codec FAQ.

I want to say I've already seen one, but I can't remember where, so I can't say if it was official, or a hobbyist site trying to parse this themselves.

I want to say it said the pods, and their units were exempt from the rule, so you applied to the rule to whatever percent of your army wasn't in pods, and it make a special effort to call out the rules for being tabled. Maybe that'll be enough info for someone who remembers this better to link it.

 p5freak wrote:
True, which doesn't change the fact that your entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule when it's in pods. Intended ? Maybe not, we will have to wait for the codec FAQ.

Is your army exempt, though? The units within it are, but the army itself doesn't gain unit abilities just because it consists of only that unit. The army requirement from Tac Res is that half be on the table.

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

True, which doesn't change the fact that your entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule when it's in pods. Intended ? Maybe not, we will have to wait for the codec FAQ.

I want to say I've already seen one, but I can't remember where, so I can't say if it was official, or a hobbyist site trying to parse this themselves.

I want to say it said the pods, and their units were exempt from the rule, so you applied to the rule to whatever percent of your army wasn't in pods, and it make a special effort to call out the rules for being tabled. Maybe that'll be enough info for someone who remembers this better to link it.

This is the kind of clarification I am looking for. How hard would it be to just make that clarification when they like...made the clarification?

dode74 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
True, which doesn't change the fact that your entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule when it's in pods. Intended ? Maybe not, we will have to wait for the codec FAQ.

Is your army exempt, though? The units within it are, but the army itself doesn't gain unit abilities just because it consists of only that unit. The army requirement from Tac Res is that half be on the table.

When my entire army is in pods my entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule.

 p5freak wrote:

dode74 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
True, which doesn't change the fact that your entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule when it's in pods. Intended ? Maybe not, we will have to wait for the codec FAQ.

Is your army exempt, though? The units within it are, but the army itself doesn't gain unit abilities just because it consists of only that unit. The army requirement from Tac Res is that half be on the table.

When my entire army is in pods my entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule.

Your units are all in pods, but your army still has a value of 2000. 1000 of those points need to be on the table. Regardless of whether you have pods or not your army's value is 2000.

Armies don't gain unit abilities.

dode74 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

dode74 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
True, which doesn't change the fact that your entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule when it's in pods. Intended ? Maybe not, we will have to wait for the codec FAQ.

Is your army exempt, though? The units within it are, but the army itself doesn't gain unit abilities just because it consists of only that unit. The army requirement from Tac Res is that half be on the table.

When my entire army is in pods my entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule.

Your units are all in pods, but your army still has a value of 2000. 1000 of those points need to be on the table.

Armies don't gain unit abilities.

Someone with a rulebook in front them check where in the rules it says that armies point values are locked in ahead of the game. I was under the impression that rules are not actually written with the idea that players are setting point totals in advance. but rather you just tally up the points of your army whenever the rules request it. Which would mean that in the case of this rule. You don't have a 2000pt army. You have a 0 pt army since everything is excluded from the rule. if you put 750 pts in drop pods, then you have a 1250 pt army.

This is for sure how it would work in open or narrative play. but the matched play rules may explicitly state that point values are locked in before a match.

BRB page 214

When choosing an army for a matched play game, your
army must be Battle-forged (pg 240) and its total points
value cannot exceed the limit set for your game.

...

POINTS LIMIT
In a matched play game, you will need to determine
with your opponent the points limit for your game.
Usually, both players will use the same limit, but this
does not need to be the case.
To use a points limit, you will need to reference
the points values, which are found in a number of
Warhammer 40,000 publications, such as codexes. In
these you will find the points costs for every model
and weapon described in that book. Simply add up the
points values of all the models and weapons in your
army, and make sure the total does not exceed the
agreed limit for the game.

That first paragraph states that your army has a total points value before the game.

For each mission:

THE ARMIES
Each player selects a Battle-forged army to an agreed
points limit.

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

True, which doesn't change the fact that your entire army is exempt from the tactical reserves rule when it's in pods. Intended ? Maybe not, we will have to wait for the codec FAQ.

I want to say I've already seen one, but I can't remember where, so I can't say if it was official, or a hobbyist site trying to parse this themselves.

I want to say it said the pods, and their units were exempt from the rule, so you applied to the rule to whatever percent of your army wasn't in pods, and it make a special effort to call out the rules for being tabled. Maybe that'll be enough info for someone who remembers this better to link it.

It makes sense logically to do that but we aren't instructed to do that.

dode74 wrote:
BRB page 214

When choosing an army for a matched play game, your
army must be Battle-forged (pg 240) and its total points
value cannot exceed the limit set for your game.

...

POINTS LIMIT
In a matched play game, you will need to determine
with your opponent the points limit for your game.
Usually, both players will use the same limit, but this
does not need to be the case.
To use a points limit, you will need to reference
the points values, which are found in a number of
Warhammer 40,000 publications, such as codexes. In
these you will find the points costs for every model
and weapon described in that book. Simply add up the
points values of all the models and weapons in your
army, and make sure the total does not exceed the
agreed limit for the game.

That first paragraph states that your army has a total points value before the game.

For each mission:

THE ARMIES
Each player selects a Battle-forged army to an agreed
points limit.

Technically it sets a limit. If I only bring 1750 points then does that mean I can deepstrike 1000pts because the limit is 2000? When do we determine the final cost of our army for the sake of tactical reserves if I'm not using drop pods?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, the argument I'm making here is that you only actually check the point value of your army when a rule calls for it. "Am i under the agreed point limit." "Is half my army in deepstrike."

So for the drop pods ignoring that rule. when you are checking if you army meets the requirements of it. Those units wouldn't be part of your army.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Probably should wait for FAQ on this. It's really not an issue anyways because to null deploy with droppods youd have an absolutely terrible army. Youd be putting 650 points into worthless immobile vehicles with a single storm bolter. Auto lose basically.

Also while they might be exempt for tactical reserve when it comes to 1st turn deep strike which was the intent of the rule they wrote. I would say it isn't immune to the clarifications regarding how much has to start on the table. Regardless of how it is worded.

Hey if someone wants to devote a 3rd of their army into drop pods, then I'm all game for it! God thing I have many long ranged guns and plenty of speed bumps! ^^

balmong7 wrote:
Technically it sets a limit. If I only bring 1750 points then does that mean I can deepstrike 1000pts because the limit is 2000? When do we determine the final cost of our army for the sake of tactical reserves if I'm not using drop pods?

It states that your "total points value cannot exceed the limit" and explains how to calculate the points value ensuring it is under the limit. The total points value is calculated before the battle. The bit in the missions under the "The Armies" heading sets what the limit is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, the argument I'm making here is that you only actually check the point value of your army when a rule calls for it. "Am i under the agreed point limit." "Is half my army in deepstrike."

Source please.

dode74 wrote:
It states that your "total points value cannot exceed the limit" and explains how to calculate the points value ensuring it is under the limit. The total points value is calculated before the battle. The bit in the missions under the "The Armies" heading sets what the limit is.

Yes, the rule says when to calculate the size of the army *for the purpose of ensuring it doesn't exceed the agreed-upon limit*. RAW never says this size of an army is to be used for any other calculations.

Source please.

You can see it posted here, a few posts earlier, or you can read the BRB, pg. 214.

The tactical reserves rule, which is pg. 215 of BRB requires half the total number of units in your army to be set up on the battlefield during Deployment. However, if all the units in an army are exempt from the rule, then you're left with 0 units to apply the rule to, and 0/2 = 0, and so if you do have 0 units on the table, you're meeting the rule.

The updated version, from WH40k update, April 2019, says this: When setting up your army during deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the battlefield during deployment (including those that are embarked aboard Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.

This means that the combined points value of an army for the purpose of this rule, and the number of units, is determined during deployment (When setting up your army during deployment for a matched play game), and by that time, the drop pod army's units are already exempt from the rule, and again we get the 0/2=0 result.

the rule says when to calculate the size of the army *for the purpose of ensuring it doesn't exceed the agreed-upon limit*.

No it doesn't. It says how to calculate it and that it must not be greater than that limit, but does not state that calculating it is for that purpose.

RAW never says this size of an army is to be used for any other calculations.

Nor does it say the value gets recalculated at any other time, nor that it changes.

There is no source for your statements because you assume, contrary to the rulebook, that you recalculate the "total points value" of your army every time.

dode74 wrote:

the rule says when to calculate the size of the army *for the purpose of ensuring it doesn't exceed the agreed-upon limit*.

No it doesn't. It says how to calculate it and that it must not be greater than that limit, but does not state that calculating it is for that purpose.

RAW never says this size of an army is to be used for any other calculations.

Nor does it say the value gets recalculated at any other time, nor that it changes.

There is no source for your statements because you assume, contrary to the rulebook, that you recalculate the "total points value" of your army every time.

Ummm, to quote the page 214 of the BRB: In a matched play game, you will need to determine with your opponent the points limit for the game.

The rule says nothing about the *size of an army*, it is a point limit for *the game*. You add up the points of models and weapons *in* an army, to make sure you're within the limit for the game, but you're not calculating the size *of* an army.

I posted all the relevant rules above. It specifically refers to the "total points value" in the preface para and later on tells you that you have to agree to a limit and how to calculate the points value, and that it must not exceed the total.

When choosing an army for a matched play game, your
army must be Battle-forged (pg 240) and its total points
value cannot exceed the limit set for your game.
...
POINTS LIMIT
In a matched play game, you will need to determine
with your opponent the points limit for your game.
Usually, both players will use the same limit, but this
does not need to be the case.
To use a points limit, you will need to reference
the points values, which are found in a number of
Warhammer 40,000 publications, such as codexes. In
these you will find the points costs for every model
and weapon described in that book. Simply add up the
points values of all the models and weapons in your
army, and make sure the total does not exceed the
agreed limit for the game.

Okay, so go and read what you've posted. I'll highlight the important sequence here:

In a matched play game, you will need to determine
with your opponent the points limit for your game.

See? The points limit of a *game*, not a size of an army. The term "size of an army" is nowhere in the text you've quoted. The text repeatedly uses the term "points limit", and says the sum of all points values in an army must not exceed the limit, but it never introduces a size of an army as a defined value.

i do not get why people still think DP can't Null delpoy.

Tactical Reserves rules had a limit of
Half your units (changed an faq)
Half Points Value (2nd nerf hammer)
Liimts on Turn Numbers.

If you have an army that entirely consists of Drop Pods and units inside said drop pods. You ignore ALL restrictions on the above.

You have 0 units, 0 points, an can deploy when ever you want to. An if you not an idiot you should play CA2018 missions where sudden death isn't a thing sooo weee.

People are way overacting to the strength of this army.

Battle Round One

SM player: “Haha I null deploy and go first! You can’t kill anything!”

Probably doesn’t score much.

Eldar player: <zooms infantry, jetbikes, Serpents and planes out across the board>


Battle Round Two

SM player: “Ummm yeah I can’t place my doods...”

Eldar player: “Oh well!”

noname_hero wrote:
Okay, so go and read what you've posted. I'll highlight the important sequence here:

In a matched play game, you will need to determine
with your opponent the points limit for your game.

See? The points limit of a *game*, not a size of an army. The term "size of an army" is nowhere in the text you've quoted. The text repeatedly uses the term "points limit", and says the sum of all points values in an army must not exceed the limit, but it never introduces a size of an army as a defined value.

Now you read the relevant bit:

your
army must be Battle-forged (pg 240) and its total points
value cannot exceed the limit set for your game

I've even bolded and underlined it for you.

ThatMG wrote:
i do not get why people still think DP can't Null delpoy.

Tactical Reserves rules had a limit of
Half your units (changed an faq)
Half Points Value (2nd nerf hammer)
Liimts on Turn Numbers.

If you have an army that entirely consists of Drop Pods and units inside said drop pods. You ignore ALL restrictions on the above.

You have 0 units, 0 points, an can deploy when ever you want to. An if you not an idiot you should play CA2018 missions where sudden death isn't a thing sooo weee.

People are way overacting to the strength of this army.

Tactical Reserves rules had a limit of
Half your units (changed an faq)
Half Points Value (2nd nerf hammer)
Liimts on Turn Numbers.

This is correct

If you have an army that entirely consists of Drop Pods and units inside said drop pods. You ignore ALL restrictions on the above.

This is assumption not fact.

Tactical reserves applys to your army when does this happen?

Your assumption is that the check happens after deployment so 0 models count if that is the case then you are correct.

However if the check happens after list construction or prior to deployment the units you subsequently choose to deploy in the
Pods are not in the pods so are not exempt at that time. You would then have to deploy half your army -drop pods reguardless of whether they later chose to deploy in the pods


Finnally if we dont check till after deployment would it be acceptable in a 2000pt game useing alternate deployment to deploy 1500 pts in reserve see where you positioned your troops and then determine i had put too many in reserve because if the check doesnt happen till after deployment as you assume i could do that

The check obviously happens when you put units into reserves. Because the rule is about putting units into reserves. This is during deployment. In order to have a legal deployment you have to have 1/2 of your total points (exempt units still contribute to this total as they are part of your army - they aren't exempt from being part of your army unless otherwise clarified). So Beit as it may you have a full exempt army. You still have to deploy half of your points on the table to have a legal deployment.

 Xenomancers wrote:
In order to have a legal deployment you have to have 1/2 of your total points (exempt units still contribute to this total as they are part of your army - they aren't exempt from being part of your army unless otherwise clarified).

It seems that you do not know what exempt means.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The check obviously happens when you put units into reserves. Because the rule is about putting units into reserves. This is during deployment. In order to have a legal deployment you have to have 1/2 of your total points (exempt units still contribute to this total as they are part of your army - they aren't exempt from being part of your army unless otherwise clarified). So Beit as it may you have a full exempt army. You still have to deploy half of your points on the table to have a legal deployment.

They are exempt for the purpose of that rule. That's literally what the drop pods rules say.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
In order to have a legal deployment you have to have 1/2 of your total points (exempt units still contribute to this total as they are part of your army - they aren't exempt from being part of your army unless otherwise clarified).

It seems that you do not know what exempt means.

This...they are like doing 4+4 = 9 guys I can math!

I think the rules are written are far from clear and without an FAQ to make it clear we will be going around in circles.

Of the three paragraphs that make up the Tactical Reserves rules the last two concerning
1) No turn 1 deployment, and
2) Being considered destroyed if they haven’t arrived by the end of Turn 3
Both explicitly solely target those units held in reserves.

Thus, with Drop Pods and their embarked units being exempt from the Tactical Reserve rules there isn’t an argument on whether they can turn up on Turn 1, 4,5,6 or 7.


However, the 1st Paragraph would seem to target ‘your army’ rather than the specific consistent units of that army (which individually may be exempt). This posses 2 questions which seem to be the core of the current discussion.
1) Is rule applied at the army level?
and
2) If any army is entirely composed of units that are exempt from the rule does this make the entire army exempt?


So in trying to answer 1)
To me the phrasing on the 1st paragraph appears to target, and thus place the restrictions on ‘Your Army’. So whilst constituent elements of the army may not have to obey this rule, the army, as a whole still does (it is the army, as a whole that must meet the requirement). Thus the 50% restrictions are still applicable to the army.

In considering 2)
Whilst I can see the logic behind going
‘All the units in my army are exempt from Tactical Reserves thus my Army is exempt’ this transfer/ inheritance of exemption isn’t specially laid out.

There is discussion on how drops pods and units embarked unit interact with other units and the ability of other units to be held in reserve. Which I think can prove valuable to answer the above,

Whilst the drop pods and units embarked within them are exempt from the Tactical Reserves rule (the answers to 1 and 2 actually don’t matter). Any element of the army that is still bound by Tactical Reserves Rules must adhere to it.

The calculation for determining the minimum number of units (and their pts value) is clearly based on the entire army. Whilst some elements of the army may be exempt from a restriction, we are not instructed to exclude any exempt units in determining these restrictions for other elements, or the greater whole, so these units must be considered in determining what the non-exempt units can do. There is not currently a clear explicit rationale for excluding the drop pods and embarked units when determining the minimum number and values of units that must be deployed.

So, in a 2k pts game if there 1k pts of drop pods and embarked units that leaves 0pts of reserves for anything else. Similarly, if there are 500 pts of drop pods and embarked units that leaves 500pts of reserves for anything else

This does pose an interesting conundrum should more than 50% of the army (in terms in units and pts) be exempt, and there be any non-exempt element; It will not be possible to adhere to the rules of deploying 50% of army’s units and points using only the non-exempt elements as require to do so for those non-exempt element. The only way to satisfy the requirements of Tactical Reserves in this case is by deploying some of the exempt element such that at least ½ the army is deployed.

Critically this entirely consistent with to 50% restrictions being levied and meet by the army as a whole. Whilst more than 50% of the army may be exempt from the rule, in order to satisfy the rule as it applied to different units (or potentially your entire army) then such units may be required to be deployed. Granted this could be used as evidence to ‘exclude’ any ‘exempt’ element, however at no point is excluding such units mentioned. Such excluding is entirely inferred in order to make the alternative solution possible.

This does potentially create of special case where 100% of the army is drop pods/ in drop pods. Given that the only answer to the 60% in pods 40% not only works if some of the ‘exempt’ element is deployed such that 50% of the army is deployed, which inturn supports the restrictions being applied at, and adhered to at they army level, and that is solution will also work here I don’t see the need for a special case of allowing nothing above 50% in reserve in pods except 100% in pods.

The part “Whatever happens, though, don’t forget about missions that use the rules for Sudden Death – not even Space Marines can win a battle if they’re not actually there!” has been used to support the ‘Null Deployment’ interpretation – However this could equally be a reminder that having drop pod(s and embarked units) won’t stop ‘Sudden Death’ on later turns (e.g. In a game where sudden death does apply and it is the end of turn 4 and you have no models alive on the table but have a couple of drop pods still held in reserve you’d still lose).

All words contained in the "tactical reserves" rule are ignored by units in drop pods or are drop pods. Thus you have 0 units 0 points and can deploy in turn 1 or 7 (however lose) if Sudden Death is in play. What in CA2018 missions isn't in play and are popular outside of organised events.

In organised events it's up to the TO's or some figurehead of the specific brand ergo ITC/NOVA/ETC to make an official stance.

dode74 wrote:

noname_hero wrote:
Okay, so go and read what you've posted. I'll highlight the important sequence here:

In a matched play game, you will need to determine
with your opponent the points limit for your game.

See? The points limit of a *game*, not a size of an army. The term "size of an army" is nowhere in the text you've quoted. The text repeatedly uses the term "points limit", and says the sum of all points values in an army must not exceed the limit, but it never introduces a size of an army as a defined value.

Now you read the relevant bit:

your
army must be Battle-forged (pg 240) and its total points
value cannot exceed the limit set for your game

I've even bolded and underlined it for you.

OK. I agree to play you and we decide to set a limit of 2,000 points. You bring 1,997 points of models, and I bring 1,034 (because I want to make it challenging). You have a 1,997-point army and I have a 1,034-point army. You need to det up at least 1997/2 = 999 points on the table, and I need to set up at least 517 points. Neither of us need to set up 1,000 points, because even though the limit for the game is 2,000 points, neither of us has a 2,000-point army.