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 AndrewGPaul wrote:

OK. I agree to play you and we decide to set a limit of 2,000 points. You bring 1,997 points of models, and I bring 1,034 (because I want to make it challenging). You have a 1,997-point army and I have a 1,034-point army. You need to det up at least 1997/2 = 999 points on the table, and I need to set up at least 517 points. Neither of us need to set up 1,000 points, because even though the limit for the game is 2,000 points, neither of us has a 2,000-point army.

Make it really challenging. Take a 500 point army in a 2,000 point game. I can't imagine much more difficult things to do than deploy 1000 points of units with a 500 point list.

ThatMG wrote:
All words contained in the "tactical reserves" rule are ignored by units in drop pods or are drop pods. Thus you have 0 units 0 points and can deploy in turn 1 or 7 (however lose) if Sudden Death is in play. What in CA2018 missions isn't in play and are popular outside of organised events.

In organised events it's up to the TO's or some figurehead of the specific brand ergo ITC/NOVA/ETC to make an official stance.

I think the argument he and I are making is extremely clear. It just needs clarification because I can think of any number of ways to apply their ruling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
In order to have a legal deployment you have to have 1/2 of your total points (exempt units still contribute to this total as they are part of your army - they aren't exempt from being part of your army unless otherwise clarified).

It seems that you do not know what exempt means.

Someone actually posted the definition above. I guess I can't read ether.

Chaos player wading in, hoping to provide some insight into how this works in similar scenarios.

We've had similar issues with summoning lists since the last Big FAQ. The Tactical Reserves rule says you must field:

- At least half your units

- At least half the army's total points value

But what happens when you set aside 500 points for summoning? Are reinforcement points part of the army's total points value or something else entirely?

In the BRB, page 214, it talks about Reinforcement Points and tells you to record them on your roster. In general, Reinforcement Points are treated as a meta-unit. The points don't count towards the number of units but do count towards the army's total points.

Example: I'm playing a 2000 point game and set aside 500 Reinforcement Points, then I take a 300 point Kharbydis Assault Claw for deep striking. That leaves me with 200 points for the occupants. Because I have to have at least 1000 points of stuff on the table to meet the requirements of Tactical Reserves.

It would be a lot easier if I could say the army's total points is 1500, which would give me 350 points for the occupants. But that's not what the rules say.

I haven't seen the exact wording for Drop Pods, but if they are 'exempt' from Tactical Reserves, I would assume this means they are treated the same way as Reinforcement Points. They don't count towards half the units but they do count towards the army's total points. So you would still need to have 1000 points on the table in a 2000 point matched play game, because the rest of your army is not exempt from the rule.

Just a perspective. Looking forward to knowing how this gets decided.

Reinforcement points have nothing to do with this.

 p5freak wrote:
Reinforcement points have nothing to do with this.

Just another example of not being able to deep strike more than 1000 points in a 2000 points game. Totally relevant - sets a precedent.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Chaos player wading in, hoping to provide some insight into how this works in similar scenarios.

We've had similar issues with summoning lists since the last Big FAQ. The Tactical Reserves rule says you must field:

The minor difference here is that RP do not have a rule that says they're exempt from the Tactical Reserves rule. But at least it's more relevant than dividing by zero for no reason.

Yes you can currently null deploy- however it is highly constrained and difficult.

Matched play tactical reserves requires you to have half your units and at least half your points on the table- it's not permission to take things off table but rather requirements to have things on the table.

The drop pod exemption from tactical reserves makes them and their contents exempt.

Effectively if you have 1200 pts in drop pods and units inside them they don't count against your tactical reserves. The next question is do you count the remaining 800 pts as the army for purposes of tactical reserves or the entire 2k.

If you count it as 2k then you can't put anymore units in reserves, because you have to have 1000 pts on table and at 800 you can't do that but the drop pods are exempt so you get a pass.

If you count the remaining army as 800pts technically you could put 400pts of them and half units in reserves.

There is no rules as written permission to count the remaining 800 as the total army,.drop pod rule doesn't grant it and it's not anhywhere else- so we are left with the 1200 pts in reserves.

This might actually be a timing issue with current RAW.

If you put the drop pods in reserves first then you are stuck with other units that have to obey tactical reserves. If you put other units into reserves first then put in exempt drop pods...

Of course there is no question if your whole army is in drop pods-null deploy away. May run into games where you lose versus fast horde armies because you have nowhere to deploy though..

blaktoof wrote:
Yes you can currently null deploy- however it is highly constrained and difficult.

Matched play tactical reserves requires you to have half your units and at least half your points on the table- it's not permission to take things off table but rather requirements to have things on the table.

The drop pod exemption from tactical reserves makes them and their contents exempt.

Effectively if you have 1200 pts in drop pods and units inside them they don't count against your tactical reserves. The next question is do you count the remaining 800 pts as the army for purposes of tactical reserves or the entire 2k.

If you count it as 2k then you can't put anymore units in reserves, because you have to have 1000 pts on table and at 800 you can't do that but the drop pods are exempt so you get a pass.

If you count the remaining army as 800pts technically you could put 400pts of them and half units in reserves.

There is no rules as written permission to count the remaining 800 as the total army,.drop pod rule doesn't grant it and it's not anhywhere else- so we are left with the 1200 pts in reserves.

This might actually be a timing issue with current RAW.

If you put the drop pods in reserves first then you are stuck with other units that have to obey tactical reserves. If you put other units into reserves first then put in exempt drop pods...

Of course there is no question if your whole army is in drop pods-null deploy away. May run into games where you lose versus fast horde armies because you have nowhere to deploy though..

So if I understand this correctly (and the case presented by various others) then actually null deployment is possible so long as at least ½ the army is drop pods, units to be embarked on them and the remainder of the army is deep strike capable (terms, jump packs etc..:

During deployment you start by deploying your non-drop pod deep strike capable units into deepstrike (which by this rationale is legal, as at the time the units are deployed it is technically possible to deploy sufficient number and value of units from your amy to adhere to the rules of Tactical Reserves). Then having deployed a maximum of one half of your army in deepstrike (through ‘conventional’ units), you then systematically embark units on the drop pods as you deploy the pods into deepstrike (as although you could choose to deploy any and all of these units on the table top to adhere to tactical reserves, you can choose not to as these units are exempt from the rule).

Correct?

An obvious counter point which undermines this is sequencing that is required... Embarking units on transports is made when you deploy the transport.

Combat Squads, which also a choice which is decided during deployment must be made before any model are set-up (whether on the table or elsewhere)., Critically and importantly this creates a constant number of units during the process of deploying the units - Before any models are placed the total number of units in the army is determined, so setting the minimum number of units to be deployed (the minimum points of those units remains unchanged).
The cases for allowing more than 50% deployed in deep strike in drop pods (and potentially 50% of the remainder) require that either a) the minimum deployment requirements in both terms of number of units, and the value of those units to be recalculated after each unit is deployed and/ or b) the ability to choose to embark into a drop pod (and then into deep strike) such that potentially previously legal deployments are rendered illegal.

If Tactical Reserves was worded along the lines of ‘In a Matched play game a minimum amount of each army must be deployed before the 1st turn. Each unit contributes 0.5 to the number of units that must be so deployed, and each unit and any reinforcement points contribute ½ their values to the points value of those units to be deployed. When calculating the number of units and the points values only round after adding up the totals for the army. This check is performed once the army is deployed.’ Then there wouldn’t be any questions. The duty to deploy a certain amount of the army is built up by evaluating each of the constituent units of the army. Thus with this (or similar) wording you could deploy as much as you’d like in drop pods, and deploy upto ½ the rest in deepstrike through the usual means.

As it is the wording of Tactical Reserves uses properties of the army which aren’t defined in the Tactical Reserves rule (the number of units and the points value of those units), and as such Drop Pods, and any units which will eventually embark on them will be included in these values. The minimum deployment requirements would appear to be determined before any units are deployed.

Time to give this one a rest until we get an FAQ for it, methinks.

Moving on.