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Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

and space marines have done both long before vanguard Primaris became a thing

Yes, but now that it is the Primaris doing it it is different and everything is ruined...

Didn't know marine snipers were a thing.
Enligthen me.
Or are you referring to C.s goto?

Meet the Space Marine Recon Squad. They are a Heresy era unit. They have been around for several years at this point. No one bitched about them when they came out. The sniper whining now is explicitly Primaris Haters square-pegging a round hole to fit their narrative.

Am I the only one that's a fan of the Raptor chapter, that actually fight in a sensible way, like using proper stealth, information gathering, being among the best shots of all astartes and so forth?

And they actually form specialized kill teams without being Deathwatch.


So....? What is that Primaris do that's new?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Meet the Space Marine Recon Squad. They are a Heresy era unit. They have been around for several years at this point. No one bitched about them when they came out. The sniper whining now is explicitly Primaris Haters square-pegging a round hole to fit their narrative.

Not to mention several Legions maintained elite and specialized versions of the Recon Squad archetype, many of which evolved into post-Heresy special warfare formations in successor chapters.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

and space marines have done both long before vanguard Primaris became a thing

Yes, but now that it is the Primaris doing it it is different and everything is ruined...

Didn't know marine snipers were a thing.
Enligthen me.
Or are you referring to C.s goto?

We have them in the Heresy, and Scout Sergents are full Marines wearing scout armour.

And are we forgetting about Telion?

CapRichard wrote:

So....? What is that Primaris do that's new?

Have proportional limbs and torsos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

We have them in the Heresy, and Scout Sergents are full Marines wearing scout armour.

And are we forgetting about Telion?

Or Cyrus

They should be smaller though. A guy the size of a child or regular adult human with the strength/toughness/other pros of a Space Marine is far more potent and useful than a Space Marine that's been expanded (thanks to someone's size fetish) and is a bit stronger and tougher but can no longer fit through doors.

They can't be since a smaller frame wouldn't be able to support their increased organ count, plus the Godmaker used makes them even bugger than regular Astartes.

Besides, from a visual standpoint our braims register bigger as more powerful so making them smaller would make them counter intuitive.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

and space marines have done both long before vanguard Primaris became a thing

Yes, but now that it is the Primaris doing it it is different and everything is ruined...

Didn't know marine snipers were a thing.
Enligthen me.
Or are you referring to C.s goto?

We have them in the Heresy, and Scout Sergents are full Marines wearing scout armour.

And are we forgetting about Telion?

Guess what those have in common?
They aren't running around in full marine armor that is heavy and not sneaky.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They can't be since a smaller frame wouldn't be able to support their increased organ count, plus the Godmaker used makes them even bugger than regular Astartes.

Besides, from a visual standpoint our braims register bigger as more powerful so making them smaller would make them counter intuitive.

Yep, because Schook troops are supposed to be frightening, it's their whole stick, that's why the primaris, or heresy sniper squad make not particulary much sense.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yep, because Schook troops are supposed to be frightening, it's their whole stick, that's why the primaris, or heresy sniper squad make not particulary much sense.

Move dem goalpoasts son.

Phobos is not heavy and it's made for sneakiness.

And no, for an army to have a scouting branch makes sense.

No one cared about sneaking around in power armour until Primaris started doing it...

I seriously think that people are retroactively deciding older stuff is bad just so they can be mad at Primaris.

I remember fondly a passage in one of the Uriel ventris book, where a group of scout Ultramarine approaches super steathly, only to be bested by some miles by normal tactical Marines from the Raven guard. So stupid, but it's fun because of that.

CapRichard wrote:
I remember fondly a passage in one of the Uriel ventris book, where a group of scout Ultramarine approaches super steathly, only to be bested by some miles by normal tactical Marines from the Raven guard. So stupid, but it's fun because of that.

Heck Shrike sneaks around with bright white arms with cracking lighting clad knife fists while wearing a jump pack.

So yeah, Phobos marines are -tame- by comparison.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
I remember fondly a passage in one of the Uriel ventris book, where a group of scout Ultramarine approaches super steathly, only to be bested by some miles by normal tactical Marines from the Raven guard. So stupid, but it's fun because of that.

Heck Shrike sneaks around with bright white arms with cracking lighting clad knife fists while wearing a jump pack.

So yeah, Phobos marines are -tame- by comparison.

Well, he does have a smoke launcher on his back.

Op to be fair if you kill the enemy before they see that’s pretty fuckin’ stealthy.
The Nightlords weren’t the fastest legion (far from it) and in their omnibus they can sprint like 60 or so mph.
Astartes don’t really run so much as jump large distances with each step cuz of how strong their legs are. Ever seen Berserk? Kinda like Guts when the armor is active.

Before there were scouts, land speeders, thunderhawks and pods. Small teams in one vehicle, pods looking like meteors etc, they could be stealthy without looking silly.
Corax had warp shenanigans, alpha legion too and they used humans.
In addition RG "stealth" was more about deception and ambush than Sam Fisher, as you say.

I think they used to show the stealth part pretty well without too much emphasize on it, including information gathering (scouts, auspex, psykers, eating enemies' brain, administratum report and orbital scans...).

Now it looks like marines aren't troop lines or shock troops anymore but just that, spec ops rangers avoiding contact.

They used to master all kind of strategies not just so called shock and awe.
They are famous for boarding or direct assault on high priority targets (in the taros campaign for example they drop on the laser silo and they assaulted the traitor governor's palace directly, by thunderhawk, they conduct armoured column right in the strongest enemy line and they fight as rearguard to protect the evacuation).

I can't see the primashit doing this kind of stuff, fighting were the enemy is the stronger to break him.

Speaking of taros, there are several flaws, like after the ethereal's death, the tau don't move for a week, but the Imperium still hasn't evacuated the planet or took the opportunity to strike ?
The Raptor marines engage at the very beginning, and the very end. That's all
Why aren't they patrolling like on Dalyth, were they could use their Superior senses and gear to spot Tau infiltration team at night ?
Why didn't they helped operation comet ?
Why didn't they used thunderhawk or drop pod deployments to lock directly Tau forces weeks after weeks instead of letting them escape ?
Why didn't the IG use the elyseans earlier or even just their vulture to support their tanks while the Thunderbolts were fighting barracudas ?
Etc
Still I enjoyed it.

Haven't read dark imperium? They are pretty shock and awe, Via low orbit insertion and actually dropping the repulsor directly in battle.

Hellebore wrote:
Decades ago marines actually repainted their armour depending on the theatre they were engaging in - lots of classic camo painted marines back then. The heraldic colours being their formal wear, so to speak...

Decades ago? This is from book released last year...

I don't get this idea that Primaris are all shock and awe with little else going on (though you could argue that was the Luna Wolves whole gimmick since they'd teleport in and kill enemy commanders which is basically all shock and awe), since they fill the standard roles of tactical, assault and support.

If anything the Primaris are more well rounded than older chapter organization, but they're also an incomplete line. I mean I know I've been waiting for a Gravis release for a while now, and they lack regular armour support options (I look forward to the possible Primatis Thunderfire update).

They feel more geared towards recon at the moment because that's the new stuff, but lorewise everything we had before was them hitting the opponent in the face like a thunderhammer.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guess what those have in common?
They aren't running around in full marine armor that is heavy and not sneaky.

...

Yep, because Schook troops are supposed to be frightening, it's their whole stick, that's why the primaris, or heresy sniper squad make not particulary much sense.

Meet DW sniper squad, released 1.5 years before primaris:



Let me guess, these guys don't make sense either?

[before you ask about guy in the rear, that's Blackshield, optional melee specialist of DW kill teams]

Crispy78 wrote:
How's the new not-a-dreadnought going to reload its holstered sidearm? Its other hand is a fricking gun! Even if it wasn't, feel sorry for the pilot having to do that with a joystick in the heat of battle... Or does the pilot aim the gun round at the cockpit so he can reach to stick a new ammo drum on it?

Pilot presses a button. Old clip ejects and a pre-programmed sequence of actions causes the arm to move to the hip and return the gun to the holster, where it is rearmed. Another button press, the suit performs another preset series of movements that “draws” the sidearm. It’s like when you hit the “reload” button in a video game - you don’t go through a bunch of mouse motions and key presses to reload the gun you just hit one button and the computer does all the work of animating the reload.

Though honestly, I think it would make far greater sense if the Bolter was simply permanently underslung like on the current dreadnought or the dreadknight. The only advantage I could see it being handheld was if the suit was disabled the pilot could “eject” and use it as a heavy Bolter himself, or if there was a rotation of sidearms it could cycle through - say, switching between a Bolter, Lascannon or Meltagun, possibly switching at a forward base or having them on hand

 Irbis wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Decades ago marines actually repainted their armour depending on the theatre they were engaging in - lots of classic camo painted marines back then. The heraldic colours being their formal wear, so to speak...

Decades ago? This is from book released last year...

You were saying...

Standard chapter colors are a thing. Repainting your army if there is need for stealth is another.

As a miniature games, of course having bright colors for your stuff is "better".

With how alien some world can be, needing brightly colored camo as a thing wouldn't shock me.

The most hilarious thing to me in 40k is every other planet is more or less habitable. They may say this is the case at some point but that’s not possible unless DAOT humanity went through and terraformed like mad. They probably do say that actually.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
The most hilarious thing to me in 40k is every other planet is more or less habitable. They may say this is the case at some point but that’s not possible unless DAOT humanity went through and terraformed like mad. They probably do say that actually.

Actually it's mostly Old One's doing there, but Humanity and Eldar did terraform worlds in their high points as well.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
The most hilarious thing to me in 40k is every other planet is more or less habitable. They may say this is the case at some point but that’s not possible unless DAOT humanity went through and terraformed like mad. They probably do say that actually.

That's just confirmation bias. We only see habitable planets in 40k because they are the only ones that matter and people fight over - most planets are not habitable, even if a sizeable number were terraformed.

The reason there are a *lot* of habitable planets is the galaxy is just huge.

I think people are over estimating how many habitablenworlds there really are. Before the Great Rift opened the Imperium held around a million worlds. Current estimates put the Milky Way at 100 Billion total worlds.

This means before Abbadon killed a chunk of the thr Imperium only held .001% of the galaxy under its actual control (and which gives you an idea how much space between each system could crop up allowing small xenos empires, chaos or renegade systems and so on.

Basically we only see inhabitable worlds because those are the ones important to the plot but they are only a small fraction pf the greater picture.

 Daba wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
The most hilarious thing to me in 40k is every other planet is more or less habitable. They may say this is the case at some point but that’s not possible unless DAOT humanity went through and terraformed like mad. They probably do say that actually.

That's just confirmation bias. We only see habitable planets in 40k because they are the only ones that matter and people fight over - most planets are not habitable, even if a sizeable number were terraformed.

The reason there are a *lot* of habitable planets is the galaxy is just huge.

Indeed. Considering that there are about hundred billion stars in the Milky Way, yet Imperium controls 'only' million implies that habitable planets are pretty damn rare.

EDIT: Too slow.

Crispy78 wrote:
How's the new not-a-dreadnought going to reload its holstered sidearm? Its other hand is a fricking gun! Even if it wasn't, feel sorry for the pilot having to do that with a joystick in the heat of battle... Or does the pilot aim the gun round at the cockpit so he can reach to stick a new ammo drum on it?

Yeah, that does look silly. I would have gone for a gauntlet mounted heavy bolter, sort of like what the dreadnought has.