Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think you shouldn't keep the razor backs in the castle. They should move out and control the field and screen, they're cheap enough for that and don't need the character with the iron hands devastator doctrine.

What, specifically do you wamt me to defend?

The levi as bonkers-broken?

Or the FW often is?

'Cause I can do both.

Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)

Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What, specifically do you wamt me to defend?

The levi as bonkers-broken?

Or the FW often is?

'Cause I can do both.

Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)

Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.

Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.

As someone who plays with and against FW extensively I feel this edition is mostly different. Most FW units are trash with a few standouts. But yes the loyalist leviathan is too good with that strat.

I expect the strat will get changed to be 13 wounds or less dreads.

The issue with FW, the SM index especially, is that the rules are out of date. We are working with version 3.0 of the SM rules while FW is still stuck using version 1.0. A FAQ to slap on the new chaplain rules and SA isn't enough. This is leading to some weird interactions.

I mean the RS librarian still references the index for choosing his powers.

I imagine they will release a new book once they shuffle all the OOP models into legends.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I expect the strat will get changed to be 13 wounds or less dreads.

are you that new? That fix makes sense. Instead they'll make unrelated marine units cost more, so you HAVE to use the levi dread to stay competitive.

footfoe wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I expect the strat will get changed to be 13 wounds or less dreads.

are you that new? That fix makes sense. Instead they'll make unrelated marine units cost more, so you HAVE to use the levi dread to stay competitive.

Why does that fix make sense? The Strat needs no fixing in the first place.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What, specifically do you wamt me to defend?

The levi as bonkers-broken?

Or the FW often is?

'Cause I can do both.

Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)

Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.

Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.

Other dreads do not have:
T8 &14W
4++
2 heavy 10 autocannons (with better AP) seriously, 3x+1 shots at half range and better AP than the Icarus Stormcannon because it has 1 more barrel.
2+ ws&bs
2+ save
8" move.

It moves almost as fast as repulsors and puts out a comparable volume of better quality fire, while costing around 30 points less. In a non-Iron hands list both hit on 3+ while while moving, at 24" the levi shoots 20 shots; the repulsor gets 6 heavy bolter, 18 onslaught, 3 heavy stubber, and 4 storm bolter shots with either 3 more stubbers -1 to hit non-flyers or d3 autocannon shots -1 to hit non flyers.

Leviathan is an incredible unit.

But Forgeworld as a whole isn't any more broken than GW.

Not as a whole.

I had said whenever new faction rules come out, that it is usually the interaction with a FW unit that has everyone screaming about how OP that faction is.

Yes FW os a little more balanced in this edition than in past, but there are still some already very good units that get made much better with certain subfaction rules.

And on the opposite end some FW units have gotten hit hard with the nerfbat because of this.

I have had to repeat time and again on dakka and other forums that GW books do not take FW rules into account, and that is why FW and subfaction combos are so crazy. It is also why some FW units are a little lackluster or incompatible compared to codex variants.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What, specifically do you wamt me to defend?

The levi as bonkers-broken?

Or the FW often is?

'Cause I can do both.

Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)

Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.

Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.

Other dreads do not have:
T8 &14W
4++
2 heavy 10 autocannons (with better AP) seriously, 3x+1 shots at half range and better AP than the Icarus Stormcannon because it has 1 more barrel.
2+ ws&bs
2+ save
8" move.

It moves almost as fast as repulsors and puts out a comparable volume of better quality fire, while costing around 30 points less. In a non-Iron hands list both hit on 3+ while while moving, at 24" the levi shoots 20 shots; the repulsor gets 6 heavy bolter, 18 onslaught, 3 heavy stubber, and 4 storm bolter shots with either 3 more stubbers -1 to hit non-flyers or d3 autocannon shots -1 to hit non flyers.

Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.

The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.

Did any of you guys see that Goongammer math article on the IH Leviathan and Repulsor? https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/ Due to the divide then subtract, I admit they are even tougher than I was picturing, however the thing I also noticed is look at the relatively minor drop from Feiros to Feiros+Ironstone. It the 2 were not a pair of an undercosted HQ and 0pt relic I would actually say it seems overkill to take both...You can make a zomg unkillable!!! unit all you want and the opponent is just going to murder everything else first. Ideally you want that toughness spread over the whole list in proportion to its strength so everything is terrible to attack.

As to what I’d put in the bubble, yeah 2-3 Executioners seem the obvious, but not how I personally want to play, I’ve done the gun bubble before. 1 Leviathan also easy pick though that’s just shunting hits into whatever the 2nd pick is. Normally I like Deredeos, Relic Contemptors, and Venerables but they waste Feiros’ invulnerable or the chapter fnp bonus. Depending on the BS of the other picks, 1 regular/mortis dread could be good. Use the BS2 granting power on it if everything else is already BS2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What, specifically do you wamt me to defend?

The levi as bonkers-broken?

Or the FW often is?

'Cause I can do both.

Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)

Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.

Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.

Other dreads do not have:
T8 &14W
4++
2 heavy 10 autocannons (with better AP) seriously, 3x+1 shots at half range and better AP than the Icarus Stormcannon because it has 1 more barrel.
2+ ws&bs
2+ save
8" move.

It moves almost as fast as repulsors and puts out a comparable volume of better quality fire, while costing around 30 points less. In a non-Iron hands list both hit on 3+ while while moving, at 24" the levi shoots 20 shots; the repulsor gets 6 heavy bolter, 18 onslaught, 3 heavy stubber, and 4 storm bolter shots with either 3 more stubbers -1 to hit non-flyers or d3 autocannon shots -1 to hit non flyers.

Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.

The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.

Why do you think I compared it to the Repulsor?

Also the only knight that costs around 303 points is the gallant at 352.

But you keep defending the Levi as being perfectly reasonable; I am sure you spent enough money to need that to be true.

bort wrote:
Did any of you guys see that Goongammer math article on the IH Leviathan and Repulsor? https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/ Due to the divide then subtract, I admit they are even tougher than I was picturing, however the thing I also noticed is look at the relatively minor drop from Feiros to Feiros+Ironstone. It the 2 were not a pair of an undercosted HQ and 0pt relic I would actually say it seems overkill to take both...You can make a zomg unkillable!!! unit all you want and the opponent is just going to murder everything else first. Ideally you want that toughness spread over the whole list in proportion to its strength so everything is terrible to attack.

As to what I’d put in the bubble, yeah 2-3 Executioners seem the obvious, but not how I personally want to play, I’ve done the gun bubble before. 1 Leviathan also easy pick though that’s just shunting hits into whatever the 2nd pick is. Normally I like Deredeos, Relic Contemptors, and Venerables but they waste Feiros’ invulnerable or the chapter fnp bonus. Depending on the BS of the other picks, 1 regular/mortis dread could be good. Use the BS2 granting power on it if everything else is already BS2.

That article does a wonderful job of showing how FW bs is so much fun!

I think the Leviathan is still pretty reasonable for nonIH chapters. I wouldn’t be heart broken if they raise the cost in order to nerf the IH version of it, but I’d also never run it in any other chapter after that.

I recently ran 2 leviathans as IH against Harlequins with DE and got pants’d. Leviathans aren’t broken. Their short range and high cost can make it very difficult in an objectives game. They are probably the single best unit in the space marines tool kit, but are not OP. Any list that can kill knights will have no problem with leviathans. Or alternatively kill the relatively few infantry units around the leviathan and grab objectives.

I feel like anyone that complains loudly about individual units probably does not have a competative list and is playing against competative players, hence a negative experience.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What, specifically do you wamt me to defend?

The levi as bonkers-broken?

Or the FW often is?

'Cause I can do both.

Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)

Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.

Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.

Other dreads do not have:
T8 &14W
4++
2 heavy 10 autocannons (with better AP) seriously, 3x+1 shots at half range and better AP than the Icarus Stormcannon because it has 1 more barrel.
2+ ws&bs
2+ save
8" move.

It moves almost as fast as repulsors and puts out a comparable volume of better quality fire, while costing around 30 points less. In a non-Iron hands list both hit on 3+ while while moving, at 24" the levi shoots 20 shots; the repulsor gets 6 heavy bolter, 18 onslaught, 3 heavy stubber, and 4 storm bolter shots with either 3 more stubbers -1 to hit non-flyers or d3 autocannon shots -1 to hit non flyers.

Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.

The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.

Why do you think I compared it to the Repulsor?

Also the only knight that costs around 303 points is the gallant at 352.

But you keep defending the Levi as being perfectly reasonable; I am sure you spent enough money to need that to be true.

I don't own one.

The sad reality is that everything that the IH are taking advantage of to make obscenely good right now, all the other chapters will suffer from it because GW will simply do point increases.

Point increases to account for the IH buffs, that everyone else won't have, and so we will be right back to square one, where everything is obscenely expensive because GW doesn't fething know how to write rules.

This is exactly what is going to happen. Because all chapters are totally created equal right guys? If a repulsor is too good for the IH, then that means its too good for all chapters! Right guys?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.

The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.

To quote a fellow on the last page, "Nope. You're going to defend this statement right now as you're literally incorrect. "

Prove to us how it is not broken, please.

has anyone thought about putting together an all infantry old marine list ? competitive ? viable ? was wondering cause if got a shed load of HB marines and tons of old marine dudes

 zedsdead wrote:
has anyone thought about putting together an all infantry old marine list ? competitive ? viable ? was wondering cause if got a shed load of HB marines and tons of old marine dudes

Primaris are nice to have, but not absolutely necessary IMHO.

Devastators, Vanguard Vets, and Scouts are still good units. Bikes, point-for-point, can approach the volume fire of Aggressors. If you really need a gajillion plasma shots, Sternguard or Company vets can do that. Speeders are looking good again for some chapters. Primaris barely have dreads, and don’t have flyers or flamers at all.

Primaris units can get some efficiencies (especially the troops) that are hard for oldmarines to get. But the old guys are still viable with the new books.

Lemondish wrote:

bort wrote:
Did any of you guys see that Goongammer math article on the IH Leviathan and Repulsor? https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/ Due to the divide then subtract, I admit they are even tougher than I was picturing, however the thing I also noticed is look at the relatively minor drop from Feiros to Feiros+Ironstone. It the 2 were not a pair of an undercosted HQ and 0pt relic I would actually say it seems overkill to take both...You can make a zomg unkillable!!! unit all you want and the opponent is just going to murder everything else first. Ideally you want that toughness spread over the whole list in proportion to its strength so everything is terrible to attack.

As to what I’d put in the bubble, yeah 2-3 Executioners seem the obvious, but not how I personally want to play, I’ve done the gun bubble before. 1 Leviathan also easy pick though that’s just shunting hits into whatever the 2nd pick is. Normally I like Deredeos, Relic Contemptors, and Venerables but they waste Feiros’ invulnerable or the chapter fnp bonus. Depending on the BS of the other picks, 1 regular/mortis dread could be good. Use the BS2 granting power on it if everything else is already BS2.

That article does a wonderful job of showing how FW bs is so much fun!

While you're all foaming at the mouth about FW being the problem instead of the ability stacking I'm just going to point out that it's even more rediculous when you stack those buffs on a redemptor dreadnaught as it actually packs almost as much firepower the ability to CC and costs half the points.

FW dreadnaughts are simply not broken, iH dreadnaughts being 50% more durable than anyone else's is broken.

FW wrote dreadnaughts that were playable, GW wrote unplayable poor rules for codex dreadnaughts. Then is compensating by making a single chapter buff them to 2 or 3 times over to make them playable. That's bad game/rules design, it's 100% on the main studio not FW.

Here’s the thing about the leviathan in iron hands list. 1 is super strong. 2 will quickly become one because you can really only buff one.
All those strats cost CP and CP will be at a premium if you’re taking a lot of vehicles etc.
There are a lot of things that ignore overwatch AND/OR have so many men that they can charge in no problem. 30 tzaangors will have a lovely time tryin it up in CC.
Tau can pop it from long range. It may take everything they have but after it’s dead that’s 300 some odd points gone.

Do fortifications like the Bastion remove the Marines super-chapter tactics?

bmsattler wrote:
Do fortifications like the Bastion remove the Marines super-chapter tactics?

No. 'Unaligned' units are permitted.

Vortenger wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.

The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.

To quote a fellow on the last page, "Nope. You're going to defend this statement right now as you're literally incorrect. "

Prove to us how it is not broken, please.

It costs about as much as a Knight with none of the survivability and anything not Ultramarines just gets tied up in melee indefinitely.

It's a good unit but hardly broken. It only appears broken because a lot of the Dread options are actually just terrible and always have been. There's a distinction ya know.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Asscan backs have always been good; move and fire, with double remaining wounds, reroll 1's, and 5+ overwatch is amazing. But the same can be said for any razorback, or predator, or whirlwind, or... you get my point.

Preds were bad, and now they are useless, with the removal of killshot. A razorback can do the same, and is cheaper, and can carry 6 models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Levi is just bonkers-broken, but FW often is.

Nope. You're going to defend this statement right now as you're literally incorrect.

An IH twin SCA levi dread is bonkers broken. I played it twice now, since the release of the supplement. You have to kill it in one turn, which is nearly impossible with the iron stone and the half damage stratagem. If you dont kill it feirros will repair 6 wounds for 1 CP. I played it as character with student of history. I never got to use the warlord trait, because i used the overwatch on 4+ stratagem, and killed everything.

JNAProductions wrote:
But Forgeworld as a whole isn't any more broken than GW.

FW has much more broken OP stuff than GW.

Like reroll all failed hits AND wounds? For all units in a 6” bubble? With more buffs besides?