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3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.

Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use a levi but they are pretty damn strong with these strats

bananathug wrote:

I still think the executioner is better but for some reason people are fixated on the Levi.

I believe that's because of durability, not DPS. Leviathans benefit from multiple rules that Executioners don't have access to that can boost their Durability to incredible levels.
Also, you can always pop the Warlord trait that gives extra hits on 6s if you want to boost DPS instead.

I use a leviathan often as alpha legion. It's always solid, on par with knights in terms of durability. And now I'll be using a relic leviathan in RG. I have no doubt how much better it will be. Sure it might get pinned here and there but that doesn't change how strong it is otherwise. Packing the equivalent of a shorter range s7 castigator bolt cannon is good enough to handle a t7 mech a turn while it's t8 saves with the strat guarantees it's not going down in time to matter.

I do think that the interaction was intended as a concession to pure SM who can't soup knights now. It's like built in soup.

Khornatedemon wrote:

3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.

Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use a levi but they are pretty damn strong with these strats

Amazing, 6 Intercessors! The last thing that is going to be charging the Levi! Cool beans.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.

Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use

Amazing, 6 Intercessors! The last thing that is going to be charging the Levi! Cool beans.

So make it 6 marines instead? Or 6 toughness 4 2 wound 3+ save models if that tickles your fancy? It gets better for the levi against anything with a worse save. It's not inconsequential is all. Sure no overwatch smash captains exist but they arent the only thing in the game that assaults

Khornatedemon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.

Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use

Amazing, 6 Intercessors! The last thing that is going to be charging the Levi! Cool beans.

So make it 6 marines instead? Or 6 toughness 4 2 wound 3+ save models if that tickles your fancy? It gets better for the levi against anything with a worse save. It's not inconsequential is all. Sure no overwatch smash captains exist but they arent the only thing in the game that assaults

Don't forget White Scars bikers, who would suffer as badly as Intercessors and are quite likely to actually be charging.
Edit: Or 4 Terminators, or 2.6 Assault Terminators, 2 Assault Centurions, an entire vanilla dreadnought...

Waaaghpower wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

3. Oh please on the Overwatch. It kills three to four Marines on Overwatch on average, which is not a lot, and that's not covering the units ignoring it or anything more durable. The thing gets terribly tied up in melee because it hits like a wet noodle with no melee weapons and has no attacks basically the moment you get a big gun.

Actually 6 intercessors in overwatch with the strat and a lt nearby, 5 without the lt. On average. Not omfg amazing but decent enough. If you have a chapter master as well it goes up. I'm not planning to use

Amazing, 6 Intercessors! The last thing that is going to be charging the Levi! Cool beans.

So make it 6 marines instead? Or 6 toughness 4 2 wound 3+ save models if that tickles your fancy? It gets better for the levi against anything with a worse save. It's not inconsequential is all. Sure no overwatch smash captains exist but they arent the only thing in the game that assaults

Don't forget White Scars bikers, who would suffer as badly as Intercessors and are quite likely to actually be charging.
Edit: Or 4 Terminators, or 2.6 Assault Terminators, 2 Assault Centurions, an entire vanilla dreadnought...

Consolidation shenanigans exist if you're actually THAT scared of Overwatch. Which you shouldn't be.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Consolidation shenanigans exist if you're actually THAT scared of Overwatch. Which you shouldn't be.

Cool. You use consolidation shenanigans, the Leviathan gets a few free kicks in and then consolidates 6" away, so you never do any actual damage and it can just shoot you normally next turn anyways.
Also, to be clear, it's not just 'Overwatch'. It's 11-12 hits with an AP-3 autocannon that will likely be rerolling 1s to wound, plus 2d6 Heavy Flamer hits if you're within 8" (which I didn't even include in the numbers above). That's something that most melee units would take pause at.

EDIT: It's also 12 dead Ork boyz, which is enough for even a big horde to be scared of.

Waaaghpower wrote:
The Leviathan Dreadnought is not overpowered.
The stacking buffs and stratagems that can be applied to the Leviathan Dreadnought, however, are overpowered. It's at the top of the list because it's the largest dreadnought, and thus uses those buffs and stratagems most efficiently, but any other dreadnought will see similar results. Were the Leviathan to get nerfed to oblivion, we'd just see this same conversation about Deredeos, or Relic Contemptors, or Redemptors.
What we need is to have the stratagems and other abilities patched so that they cannot stack or are balanced around size. (For example, charging an extra CP for halving damage on dreads with more than 10 wounds, similar to how Rotate Ion Shields costs more on the bigger knights.)

This makes good sense to me.

Slayer: Friendly, aren't you? Never said it was OP, I said it was bonkers. If that's your definition of a 'good' unit, cool. I'd love to see your list of 'great' ones. I'd say it's pretty great. As to the rest, agree to disagree.

Iv heard many people dont allow forge world models in their games.

Surely the rules are written codex units in mind .

That attitude is ancient and diminishing rapidly. As it is major tournaments allow them generally. In Finland don't remember running into restrictions.

With GW codex containing vast majority of broken stuff leaving FW units generally pale in comparison there's no real case against banning them.

As it is I'm more worried about IH repulsors than leviathan. For leviathan there's better chapters. IH benefits more of lesser dreads and vehicles.

Any love for the spartan? I think its a nice alternative to the repulsor or a levi in ultra or IH.

Some of the lesser hyped iron hands strats are hilarious on Leviathans

There is one to score extra wounds for every successful wound roll of a six. That's a flat 50 percent damage buff against T8, and a 33 percent buff against T7. Pretty mental for just 1CP on a 300pt unit with some of the game's most efficient shooting

Also their overwatch is not to be underestimated when they can choose to buff it to 4+ with 1CP, thats 10 S7 -3 D2 hits on average. Could easily off a charging smash captain or similar if they roll a bit poorly

 DoomMouse wrote:
Some of the lesser hyped iron hands strats are hilarious on Leviathans

There is one to score extra wounds for every successful wound roll of a six. That's a flat 50 percent damage buff against T8, and a 33 percent buff against T7. Pretty mental for just 1CP on a 300pt unit with some of the game's most efficient shooting

Also their overwatch is not to be underestimated when they can choose to buff it to 4+ with 1CP, thats 10 S7 -3 D2 hits on average. Could easily off a charging smash captain or similar if they roll a bit poorly

The true Smash Captains deny overwatch. The other imposters are terrible at the job if they can't

Well that's question of maximising your chance of one shotting knight or no overwatch

Even a lone BA smash captain can't kill a levi dread in melee. His 3 damage TH is reduced to 1 by the iron stone and duty eternal. Half his attacks are saved by the levi inv. The dread needs to have lost some wounds before the captain hits it.

You know what will one-shot a Leviathian with full anti-damage buffs going? AdMech Dakkabots with Wrath of Mars.

It os a recursive loop; like the bootstrap paradox.

The Levi is being talked about so much here vs other units because it has been talked about so much here (and elsewhere)

When everyone started in with "IH are so OP and the strongest supplement" the very first unit mentioned as evidemce for this was the levi. It is spoken of as an auto-include in all SM lists, made so much better by strats,relics,and a character in the IH supplement.

If a 303 point unit that requires another elite unit of at least 50 points before you are allowed to take it is looked at as an auto-include while a 337 point dedicated transport(less points, and no FOC limitations) is seen as "meh", and a 331 points Heavy support unit is seen as "slightly better than the transport option"; then there is something wrong with the auto-include unit.

As far as other units that benefit from IH supplement ruleset as a whole: all of them.

The Predator wasn't great in the old dex, but people would take 3+ for killshot. Then the rule of 3 came out, so people at first took only 3. They started seeing 1 focus-fired off the board. Loss of killshot as a strat didn't kill the pred, rule of 3 did. Now with IH a dakka pred has gained: survivability, accuracy, and a few shenanigans. It is still worse than the Invictor Warsuit(with ACs) on unaugmented average; but when we apply the same augmentations the predator wins out(slightly) on everything except chaff.

bmsattler wrote:
You know what will one-shot a Leviathian with full anti-damage buffs going? AdMech Dakkabots with Wrath of Mars.

you can always be IH , turn levi into a char then give it a warlord trait by stratagem, that 5+ FNP should be enough

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


The Predator wasn't great in the old dex, but people would take 3+ for killshot. Then the rule of 3 came out, so people at first took only 3. They started seeing 1 focus-fired off the board. Loss of killshot as a strat didn't kill the pred, rule of 3 did. Now with IH a dakka pred has gained: survivability, accuracy, and a few shenanigans. It is still worse than the Invictor Warsuit(with ACs) on unaugmented average; but when we apply the same augmentations the predator wins out(slightly) on everything except chaff.

Only one problem: no more Killshot

Predators are still useless. A razorback is cheaper and can do the same with twin LC, and carry 6 marines. What it can't do is have sponsons, or get the pred autocannon. And even with autocannon it's outperformed by the contemptor mortis dreadnaught.

The reason so many folks are using the leviathan is because he gains the most mileage out of perks and traits that are not given real costs. For example how on earth do you come up with a cost or balance on relics that are free. Or how on earth do you assign a real cost to a stratagem that is 1CP that can be applied to how many slates? At least 8 lol. That stratagem needed to be way more specific, like only working on a Venerable Dreadnought. That relic should have been one use only.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Vortenger wrote:
The burden of proof is upon you when you call someones analysis 'literally wrong' with no evidence of your own. That's how debate works. You don't have to agree with their opinion, but don't call it wrong without being able to back it up with facts. Fine, I'll bite.

A leviathan has easy access to invulnerability saves, stratagems, and relics that increase its survivability to be equal to or greater than many knights. It is repaired more easily than its knight counterpart. You say it gets tied up in melee, I say it does not. It can happen, but can does not equal does, and presumably you are piloting this thing with the intent to circumvent your own weaknesses. Look at the previous post regarding someone's in-game experience with SCA overwatch.

The Leviathan has been an exceptional, not just good, performer for all of 8th edition and has rocketed to bonkers with recent releases. One of which will heavily dictate the tournament meta. You might claim it is specifically IH that puts it over the top, to which I ask did the Castellan need a nerf if it was only too strong when used with a specific relic, stratagem, and household? It was too good and needed a fix. This is no different. A lot of the dread options are terrible. Sure. We aren't discussing those.

I believe that covers all your concerns? I can provide statistics if you'd like, but they've been discussed.

The Leviathan Dreadnought is not overpowered.
The stacking buffs and stratagems that can be applied to the Leviathan Dreadnought, however, are overpowered. It's at the top of the list because it's the largest dreadnought, and thus uses those buffs and stratagems most efficiently, but any other dreadnought will see similar results. Were the Leviathan to get nerfed to oblivion, we'd just see this same conversation about Deredeos, or Relic Contemptors, or Redemptors.
What we need is to have the stratagems and other abilities patched so that they cannot stack or are balanced around size. (For example, charging an extra CP for halving damage on dreads with more than 10 wounds, similar to how Rotate Ion Shields costs more on the bigger knights.)

It's is hugely over powered compared to the other space marine options. That is all that matters. The other options ether need to get better (I serious doubt redepmptors/ and contemptors need to get any better) or levi needs to get nerfed. I'd say off the bat it needs 4 less shots in the storm cannon build and it should probably move much slower too at it's cost.

What are the better options on leviathan than Iron Hands ?

Amai wrote:
What are the better options on leviathan than Iron Hands ?

To be fair...Ultramarines. The best offensive buff available will be reroll all wounds from seal of oath. Only works against 1 target but that target will be ultimately obliterated by the levi dread. Salamanders is not terrible for it ether with the ap-1 ignore and a 4+ invo save reducing optimal weapons to target it with. Ironhands is obviously the best though.

Amai wrote:
What are the better options on leviathan than Iron Hands ?

Ultramarines for one. Raven Guard I'd make an argument for as everyone and their mother runs characters with above 10 wounds and they'd be easily targeted by the Autocannons.

White Scars? Nah there are better melee Dreads which is a shame because I love the melee weapons look on the Levi.

One turn only for that relic actually makes a lot of sense. Use it turn 1 so you don't get blown off the board but you are not forever invulnerable.

If only GW would come down to this cesspit every once in a while to discover a hidden gem among the trash.

UM work well for levis (no penalty for moving, fall back and still shoot, re-roll wounds vs 1 target for them is big).
I like them as DW (if only we had a way to get rid of the movement penalty). Deepstriking, re-roll 1's to wound and the ability to get +1 to wound (big if you are s7).
Work well as space wolves (ability to ignore all negs to hit at BS 2+, yes please).
Heck, deepstriking them as WS (can white scars DS dreads?) works really good too.

Problem with the rest of these lists is the lack of armor saturation. With IH you are running the repulsor/executioner so you are fielding more t8 units than most armies can deal with and now your enemy actually has to make bad choices about what to shoot and the Levi is the worst choice out of several bad choices.

bananathug wrote:

Heck, deepstriking them as WS (can white scars DS dreads?) works really good too.

WS successor Leviathans are CP hungry, but flying rodent gak hilarious in their ability to turn a board upside down.

To your question however, the stratagem currently allows deep striking of any unit with the White Scars keyword.

Want to outflank with three Thunderhawks? You can do it.

White Scars have a Fall Back and Shoot Strat I think, but it doesn't do much with just two Heavy Flamers and two Melta Guns.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
White Scars have a Fall Back and Shoot Strat I think, but it doesn't do much with just two Heavy Flamers and two Melta Guns.

It appears everyone has this strat.