+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +

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**Crimson**

rooster92 wrote:

For a firebase, I took two executioners, a gatling redemptor, a character venerable dread with lascannons and missile, a relic contemptor with lascannons and a razorback with assault cannons. I bubbled up with a techmarine, librarian with buffing abilities, chapter master and Feirros. Remaining points allowed me a screen of 3 minimum intercessor squads and 3 scout squads. Had the ironstone on one hq and the plus one to heal trait on the techmarine. I killed pretty much all of the opponents army except for one chaff unit. The downside is that I feel boxed in against fast melee armies. The opponent had a fast melee genestealer heavy tyrannid army with hiveguard support and some antitank units that had previously given my marines trouble. I basically just sat in the corner, barely moving and shot everything off the board while absorbing any antitank fire with no problem. We had plenty of terrain too. By the end of the game all my infantry were dead, and my vehicles were basically all at full health. Cool, I won, but it wasn't that fun for me or my opponent. The problem is that I love that these rules allow for an effective vehicle heavy space marine list, but I wish it were toned down at least a little. I don't play in a highly competitive environment, so I'll have to experiment with building a list that is effective and lets the theme shine, but isn't so unbalanced feeling.

This is exactly why I think IH will be really damaging to the health of the game. They have a playstyle that is super easy, super effective... and super boring. They will not be fun to play and will be super frustrating to play against. Maybe some top end tournament players can come up with effective counters, but in more casual environment they will dominate and results very unsatisfying games.

**Kommissar Kel**

Waaaghpower wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Without the ability to stack buffs, the Leviathan is no stronger pound-for-pound than a Repulsor Executioner, Invictor, or the Redemptor. Its OPness comes from the ability to stack too many good abilities into to dense of a space, in the same way that 7th edition Deathstar units could stack a half dozen buffs into a single otherwise-balanced squad and create imbalance. (And without any stratagems, I'd honestly put the Leviathan in the B tier, maybe B+.)

It's better than all three of those units.

It's one of the only marine vehicles that comes with an invuln.

It also costs more than a Land Raider and has very short range and mediocre speed.

If we go by Slayerfans' reality the Land Raider "costs as much" as the Levi.

Also; tossing in a different unit than the one's you discussed prior, and still doesn't have the invulnerable save that was lemondish's counter arguement, doesn't do anything other than deflect.

Levi's effective range is 32".

**Red Corsair**

This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?

**Kommissar Kel**

Red Corsair wrote:
This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?

I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).

**Ice_can**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?

I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).

This is what is so annoying about this place everyone is so convinced that they know the game best and unit's need nerfed when the fact that so many broken lists can be built with 1 subfaction says it's the subfaction that needs rebalanced badly not the units.

**p5freak**

Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

**Mandragola**

p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.

Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.

Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.

**Xenomancers**

Mandragola wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.

Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.

Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.

A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.

**Crimson**

Leviathan might be a tad too good yes, but not gamebreakingly so. The IH rules on the other hand are just obscene. Now you of course can think both are issues (and I would agree), but it is clear that the latter is much, much bigger deal.

**Xenomancers**

Crimson wrote:
Leviathan might be a tad too good yes, but not gamebreakingly so. The IH rules on the other hand are just obscene. Now you of course can think both are issues (and I would agree), but it is clear that the latter is much, much bigger deal.

The degree the levi is over the top is much less than the iron hands rules. No question about that. Levi needs a love tap. Ironhands need lots of fixes. Its not just that it will be unfun to play against and that it is easy to play. It's easy to play because people can't kill your stuff! Low ROF weapons are already at a disadvantage in this game - a -1 damage aura is so problematic I can't even imagine why anyone thought it was a good idea.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?

I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).

Get the FW Rhino and use Huron as a Iron Hands successor.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.

Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.

Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.

A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.

You realize how many points you need, relic slots, and Strats used to do what you're talking about?

**Mandragola**

I think I agree on this. The truly broken thing is the -1 damage relic – especially in a meta that features a lot of 2 damage weapons. I feel like the knight list I used at the LGT would have very little chance against a really straightforward Iron Hands army.

You can’t even snipe out the guy holding the relic, thanks to the IH strat to let nearby infantry tank the hits. Or I guess you have to first shoot them dead and then switch to the character… Oh and hope that you actually play an army that features snipers able to drop an IH character. The guy can quite happily sit behind a wall buffing tanks on the other side anyway.

On the plus side I’m enjoying planning ways to take this army out. I think Ravenguard might be able to do it, but not easily. Shrike can charge stuff because he has a warlord trait to prevent overwatch. It’s then a question of bringing in stuff like devastator centurions to take out the tanks. The problem is the infiltrator screen that the IH player will almost certainly bring.

**Slayer-Fan123**

p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Who's dying to a Levi in melee?

**Flavius Infernus**

Mandragola wrote:

On the plus side I’m enjoying planning ways to take this army out. I think Ravenguard might be able to do it, but not easily. Shrike can charge stuff because he has a warlord trait to prevent overwatch.

Any Raven Guard character can take the no-overwatch warlord trait. Follow the no-overwatch character into combat with whatever else you want that will fit--a bunch of smash captains, or something that does mortal wounds, or whatever combination will work.

But even without the Raven Guard strat, I wonder why the opponents described weren't using any of the usual ways to avoid overwatch, like charging from out of LoS or charging first with an expendable light vehicle, a speeder or rhino? Sure, a speeder might get blown away, but only one has to get through to stop overwatch on all subsequent charges (and the 4+ overwatch strat can only be used once per charge phase, right?).

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kommissar Kel wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?

I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).

Get the FW Rhino and use Huron as a Iron Hands successor.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.

Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.

Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.

A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.

You realize how many points you need, relic slots, and Strats used to do what you're talking about?

I realize relics are free and with 13 CP to start the game you could keep the levi at indestructible status for 3 turns no problem. Thing is...you already lose if are putting real firepower into a unit you can't kill. That is the formula to lose games. Its the main reason Castellan was such a problem with a 3++ - its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Levis put out pretty insane damage too its much the same situation here except the stratagey to chip the levi down is even more risky because of auto 6 damage healed.

For the record. To have a -2 damage (or up to -4 damage vs d6 damage on a good roll) all you need to do is spend 2 CP after something threatening shoots at your levi. Just the -1 damage relic makes all d2 and random d3 damage weapons completely useless against you. You only need the 2CP strat vs the biggest guns. 2 CP for indestructable levi....Seems like a small investment compared to 3 CP for a castellan...which already needed 3 CP to pump it's damage and probably 1 CP to fire at full power later in the game. It busted and everyone know it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Mandragola wrote:

On the plus side I’m enjoying planning ways to take this army out. I think Ravenguard might be able to do it, but not easily. Shrike can charge stuff because he has a warlord trait to prevent overwatch.

Any Raven Guard character can take the no-overwatch warlord trait. Follow the no-overwatch character into combat with whatever else you want that will fit--a bunch of smash captains, or something that does mortal wounds, or whatever combination will work.

But even without the Raven Guard strat, I wonder why the opponents described weren't using any of the usual ways to avoid overwatch, like charging from out of LoS or charging first with an expendable light vehicle, a speeder or rhino? Sure, a speeder might get blown away, but only one has to get through to stop overwatch on all subsequent charges (and the 4+ overwatch strat can only be used once per charge phase, right?).

Stupid gimmicks to beat stupid gimmicks ... Can't wait for the stratagem that lets you overwatch vs units you can't overwatch. Or the stratagem that makes you immune to assault damage or something...

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kommissar Kel wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
This isn't even going to be the worst problem build anyway, which is nuts. The impulser is sitting there laughing at all the attention it's ducking. Running about 4 of those minimum with intersessors arming sarge with a thunder hammer is going to be really tough for most armies to handle and is incredibly cheap for what they can handle. Everyone is talking about screens with infantry, Jesus am I the only guy worried about 14" moving, fly, 4++ screens that have -2 to charges lol?

I am impatiently waitimg for the Impulsor kit to drop so I can buy 4 of them for my Sons of Medusa. First turn: orbital bombardment strat + Impulsor Orbital bombardment. Second - forth turns: 1 orbital bombardment each turn. Might even run that without units to carry in them(no non-jump/gravis primaris).

Get the FW Rhino and use Huron as a Iron Hands successor.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.

Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.

Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.

A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.

You realize how many points you need, relic slots, and Strats used to do what you're talking about?

I realize relics are free and with 13 CP to start the game you could keep the levi at indestructible status for 3 turns no problem. Thing is...you already lose if are putting real firepower into a unit you can't kill. That is the formula to lose games. Its the main reason Castellan was such a problem with a 3++ - its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Levis put out pretty insane damage too its much the same situation here except the stratagey to chip the levi down is even more risky because of auto 6 damage healed.

For the record. To have a -2 damage (or up to -4 damage vs d6 damage on a good roll) all you need to do is spend 2 CP after something threatening shoots at your levi. Just the -1 damage relic makes all d2 and random d3 damage weapons completely useless against you. You only need the 2CP strat vs the biggest guns. 2 CP for indestructable levi....Seems like a small investment compared to 3 CP for a castellan...which already needed 3 CP to pump it's damage and probably 1 CP to fire at full power later in the game. It busted and everyone know it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Mandragola wrote:

On the plus side I’m enjoying planning ways to take this army out. I think Ravenguard might be able to do it, but not easily. Shrike can charge stuff because he has a warlord trait to prevent overwatch.

Any Raven Guard character can take the no-overwatch warlord trait. Follow the no-overwatch character into combat with whatever else you want that will fit--a bunch of smash captains, or something that does mortal wounds, or whatever combination will work.

But even without the Raven Guard strat, I wonder why the opponents described weren't using any of the usual ways to avoid overwatch, like charging from out of LoS or charging first with an expendable light vehicle, a speeder or rhino? Sure, a speeder might get blown away, but only one has to get through to stop overwatch on all subsequent charges (and the 4+ overwatch strat can only be used once per charge phase, right?).
Stupid gimmicks to beat stupid gimmicks ... Can't wait for the stratagem that lets you overwatch vs units you can't overwatch. Or the stratagem that makes you immune to assault damage or something...

The 3++ was not the only problem with the Castellan and you know that. Castellans got their power through a combination of basically everything. Levi can't even benefit through the same Imperial Guard spam.

**Mandragola**

True enough. The game would become a gimmick-off.

FWIW the reason I’d use Shrike is because he’s so fast. I’d hazard a guess that the reason people aren’t charging Leviathans more has something to do with the leviathan and its friends shooting them dead before they are able to. Shrike can do a pre-game move, then move, advance, and still charge thanks to a 1cp strat. This lets him get to the leviathan from far away, which is what you need to do.

He’d probably try to multi-charge the leviathan and the guy holding the -1dmg relic – who he would have a reasonable chance of killing. The trick would then be bringing enough other stuff along to be able to pin the leviathan so that everyone didn’t get nuked in the following shooting phase.

That or I start painting Eldar planes. Could go either way.

**Slayer-Fan123**

He'd need to charge the Techmarine. Shrike himself is only 135 points I think, so the tradeoff with the Techmarine is still worth it just because of needing to kill the Ironstone. Yeah he can tie up the Levi, but the Ironstone is benefitting a bunch of other stuff theoretically.

**p5freak**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Who's dying to a Levi in melee?

Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.

**Mandragola**

He'd charge both. This is the downside of the character needing to be within 3" of the dread. Perfect gap for Shrike to fit in. Even if he can only make it to the dread with his charge he can still pile into the relic guy and blend him.

Then you send in something random like an infiltrator squad to surround the leviathan and keep Shrike in combat. Also, it's a really good idea to have first turn so these guys are all still alive by this point.

As tricky as this is to achieve, it's even worse if the IH player brought repulsors and redemptors instead of leviathans. Now, the leviathans just annoyingly float away and - even more annoyingly - shoot you approximately a bajillion times.

**Xenomancers**

Mandragola wrote:
He'd charge both. This is the downside of the character needing to be within 3" of the dread. Perfect gap for Shrike to fit in. Even if he can only make it to the dread with his charge he can still pile into the relic guy and blend him.

Then you send in something random like an infiltrator squad to surround the leviathan and keep Shrike in combat. Also, it's a really good idea to have first turn so these guys are all still alive by this point.

As tricky as this is to achieve, it's even worse if the IH player brought repulsors and redemptors instead of leviathans. Now, the leviathans just annoyingly float away and - even more annoyingly - shoot you approximately a bajillion times.

This is why double exectuiner levi is going to be all the jazz...You possition the executioners in such a way that you can't charge the levi solo. So -2 to charge comes into play and you pretty much have to charge at the back of the levi cause you can't be placed anywhere...Good luck with that charge dude. You gonna have to kill the executioners first...which is doable but they don't degrade easy and can't just be tied up to shut them down. This is also only doable with ignore overwatch which only a few units have access to.

For more SNG you can even include a chapter master for like 78 points and even more melle protection for your levi. Doubles the effectiveness of all your overwatch instead of reroll 1's. Plus if they have -1's to hits you basically ignore them. Probably still mandatory vs eldar anyways.

Oh BTW...still 30ish 6+ FNP intercessors in front of them too.

**bananathug**

And now we're back to the levi isn't OP but the combo of the IH + executioners + strats + characters is the problem like people have been trying to point out for the last couple pages...

**Lemondish**

Mandragola wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.

Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.

Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.

Yes, you don't want to charge the Repulsor. But the Repulsor also isn't using Duty Eternal.

The reason folks are keen to charge a Levi is because on top of the 4++, 5+++ warlord trait, half damage Strat, repairs, and Ironstone - charging is the only way to silence it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Who's dying to a Levi in melee?

Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.

Pretty sure the Levi has less than 4 attacks because the moment you take a gun you lose an attack.

**Blood Hawk**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Who's dying to a Levi in melee?

Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.

Pretty sure the Levi has less than 4 attacks because the moment you take a gun you lose an attack.

With the strat to make it a character and SA it has 4 attacks.

**bort**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Who's dying to a Levi in melee?

Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.

Pretty sure the Levi has less than 4 attacks because the moment you take a gun you lose an attack.

I was originally going to post that too, but I think he’s counting the +1 first combat round and +1 for the strat to make a dread a character, putting it back at 4.

**Slayer-Fan123**

bort wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Who's dying to a Levi in melee?

Whatever survives overwatch on 4+ from 20 SCA shots, and 2D6 heavy flamers gets hit by 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, and the iron father and the primaris lieutenant who heroically intervene, because they are close to the levi.

Pretty sure the Levi has less than 4 attacks because the moment you take a gun you lose an attack.

I was originally going to post that too, but I think he’s counting the +1 first combat round and +1 for the strat to make a dread a character, putting it back at 4.

I did genuinely forget about SA, but it's really not dangerous in melee. Everyone is getting their save.

**Xenomancers**

bananathug wrote:
And now we're back to the levi isn't OP but the combo of the IH + executioners + strats + characters is the problem like people have been trying to point out for the last couple pages...

No...the Levi is totally OP. It's just not as OP as ironstone is. Or the Ironhands trait which is bonkers OP. 3 freaking army traits in 1...come on man...you just cant make this up...

**Red Corsair**

Xenomancers wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.

Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.

Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.

A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.

That relic would be insanely powerful even as one use only

**Xenomancers**

Red Corsair wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Instead of spending 2CPs on making a leviathan a character and a student of history so it can consolidate out of combat (unless wrapped) you could just take a repulsor and leave Feirros with the trait. That's what I'd do.

Third game with IH leviathan and third win. So far, still havent used student of history once. Enemy units either died to overwatch and melee attacks, or refused to charge, because they were scared when i told them about the overwatch on 4+ stratagem

Fair enough. I’ve never said that leviathans are bad - just that I think other units benefit even more from the IH rules than they do.

Charging an IH leviathan is going to be awful for anything that can’t avoid overwatch. But the same applies to a repulsor executioner - as well as 2” off your charge distance and the fact it can just fly away again.

Basig point is that, while an immortal IH leviathan is a monstrous thing, it’s actually not the worst that IH can do.

A practically immortal unit that only costs 303 points and puts out 20 ap-3 autocannon shots a turn hitting on 2's reroll 1's without even a buff hq? Basically it is superior of 3 autocannons havoc teams in terms of damage and it reaslically can't be destroyed with healing 6 HP a turn. It's not balanced to have the ability to take -2 or more damage off every shot. -1 damage relic should not exist.

That relic would be insanely powerful even as one use only

Yep - would still be auto include. Also in a meta sense - the only thing that will keep IH Levi from dominating the scene is the presense of ironstone. All its weapons are flat 2 damage...we might even start seeing grav flux bombard instead....