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Las fusiles strike me as incredibly good weapons, not least of all because of the reliability of flat damage 3. I'm probably going to expand with more examples, but I wanted to show the efficiency and reliability of these weapons compared to a lascannon.

Our target is T7 with a 3+ save and no invuln. We have no chapter traits and are using the Devastator Doctrine for both (so they are both AP-4). We are going to compare a las fusile Eliminators using the Sergeants +1 to hit and wound buff to a Lascannons, using the Devastator sergeants +1 to hit buff.

Las Fusile:

To Hit: 5/6
To Wound: 5/6
Damage: 3

Average Damage = 2.1
Probability of doing 3 damage = 69%

Las Cannon:

To Hit: 5/6
To Wound: 2/3
Damage: 3.5

Average Damage = 1.9
Probability of 1 or 2 damage = 21%
Probability of doing 3 damage = 7.2%
Probability of doing more than 3 damage = 28%

If we add in a chapter tactic that meshes well with single-shot weapons this shows the lascannon doing better on average, but the Fusil is still the better choice for reliability.

With Master Artisans

Las Fusile:

To Hit: 35/36
To Wound: 35/36
Damage: 3

Average Damage = 2.8
Probability of 0 damage = 5%
Probability of doing 3 damage = 95%

Las Cannon:

To Hit: 35/36
To Wound: 8/9
Damage: 3.5

Average Damage = 3
Probability of 0 damage = 14%
Probability of 1 or 2 damage = 29%
Probability of doing 3 or more damage = 14%
Probability of doing more than 3 damage = 43%

I'm going to expand this out to squads a bit later, that will reduce the effectiveness of Master Artisans, but still, show the incredible consistency of the Fusil squad.

I think you are forgetting a lot of the things that Make Devs better anti-tank platforms than Eliminators. Range, shoot twice, cost, and basic purpose.

If you are using your high priced infantry to take out tanks (T7 3+ sv) than you might be wasting your points. As good as the Las-fusils are, they are a single shot. Devs get a Lascannon for each model, and they can re-shoot. If you want that tank dead, you use Devs.

If you want to absolutely kill a character in the open or high toughness model (Mortarion or some other like model) I would say Fusil would be a good option.

But as it stands, I don't see the need to put a weaker anti-tank option on what is essentially a high priced scout.

I also worked out some stats for the Las-Fusils and Surpressors today.
You're completely leaving out a lot of things, like number of shots 1S more on the cannon, etc.

You only have 2 shots with Sergeant on the Eliminators and 4 shots on the Devs.
Eliminators would be doing 3,48 damage per round vs your T7/3+ target.

Devs come out at 5,51 damage per round (3,89 from 3 normal guys and 1,62 from the boosted one).

Lascannon has also more range, higher S, Sergeant doesn't give up a las shot...

Devs have much more output and it only gets better with more buffs, but the Eliminators have more wounds, camo cloak, etc.

Thank you for doing this

 Hanskrampf wrote:
I also worked out some stats for the Las-Fusils and Surpressors today.
You're completely leaving out a lot of things, like number of shots 1S more on the cannon, etc.

You only have 2 shots with Sergeant on the Eliminators and 4 shots on the Devs.
Eliminators would be doing 3,48 damage per round vs your T7/3+ target.

Devs come out at 5,51 damage per round (3,89 from 3 normal guys and 1,62 from the boosted one).

Lascannon has also more range, higher S, Sergeant doesn't give up a las shot...

Devs have much more output and it only gets better with more buffs, but the Eliminators have more wounds, camo cloak, etc.

As I said in the OP, I'm going to expand it to unit-level comparison later.

How are you getting a better to-wound roll with a lower-strength weapon?

Also, do the math against T8, which is a very relevant situation for an anti-tank weapon.

Edit: NVM I see, you're applying different buffs to each.

Does anyone else see the Fusil as an anti-elite weapon, more than an anti-tank weapon? I can't see the purpose of spending all the points just to, in effect, turn 2 DS in a squad of 3 snipers that might take 3-6 wounds off a light tank. Then get obliterated. On the other hand, dropping a carelessly placed Ahriman/Gman/Oblit squad in one round, I think would be worth it.

I think GW is trying to make T8 more meaningful by cutting out easy access to S9. Just a thought.

 Peregrine wrote:
How are you getting a better to-wound roll with a lower-strength weapon?

Also, do the math against T8, which is a very relevant situation for an anti-tank weapon.

Edit: NVM I see, you're applying different buffs to each.

Will also do the maths Vs other targets including knights later.

The more that I think about it, the more I don't think Las-fusils are worth it. You lose so much from the unit not being able to target characters, and due to the cost of the Las-fusils, you almost always want to skip out on buying one for the Sgt and just use his ability to give +1 to the other 2 models.

There are tons of other options for high S/AP multi-damage, but far fewer sniping options. Scouts aren't string enough for it (but are still good obj campers) and Stalker Intercessor have to spend way too many CPs for it.
Eliminators are the best sniping option in the book and giving them Las-fusils robs them of that options and makes them a bigger target too (as they are generally eaiser to kill that 5 Devs in cover and you lose more for each model killed)

-

I ruled out Las-fusils.

The Sarge getting the +1 to hit and +1 to wound for the squad allows the normal guns to do a good enough job on Armor in a pinch.

The Las fusils lose Overwatch and Scoot, and the Sarge directing shots, and the ability to pick characters. It doesn't seem worth the 25+ more points.

I'm also not 100% convinced the Sgt giving up his shot is worth +1 hit/wound on the other 2 guys. If the unit could be 5-man it might be worth it, buy taking away 33% of the unit's shots to give the remaining 67% only a 16% boost on their hit/wound rolls just seems like a wash to me.

Especially if you're say...Salamanders, or a Successor using Master Artisans

-

If they kept one of the following, it might be worth it:

1. Las Fusil can target Characters
or
2. Shot from Las-fusil ignores invuln save
or
3. Las Fusil gets 48" range and S9.

If it had any one of those, it would be worth it as a character sniper, but right now, the Eliminator just does the job better.

Reemule wrote:
I ruled out Las-fusils.

The Sarge getting the +1 to hit and +1 to wound for the squad allows the normal guns to do a good enough job on Armor in a pinch.

The Las fusils lose Overwatch and Scoot, and the Sarge directing shots, and the ability to pick characters. It doesn't seem worth the 25+ more points.

You can't "lose" the Overwatch and Retreat ability.

You have to purchase the Instigator Bolt Carbine for the Sergeant to get to do it, and they call out what he can take specifically versus the Eliminators themselves.

I think they are really good. 1+ in cover means only anti tank is going to be effective against them. Infiltrate deployment means their range is not an issue. Flat 3 is just hands down better than d6 against anything with 3 or less wounds (which is a lot of things).

 Galef wrote:
I'm also not 100% convinced the Sgt giving up his shot is worth +1 hit/wound on the other 2 guys. If the unit could be 5-man it might be worth it, buy taking away 33% of the unit's shots to give the remaining 67% only a 16% boost on their hit/wound rolls just seems like a wash to me.

Especially if you're say...Salamanders, or a Successor using Master Artisans

-

It definitely is.

3 Las fusils shooting at the example target above generates 1.4 wounding hits. With the sergeant giving his bonus it generates exactly the same average, but with higher consistency and for less cost. If you add in Master Artisans that changes in favour of the unit using the sergeant buff, because you only get one reroll and there are fewer shots. The unit is also cheaper as with this set up you can take 2 Las-Fusil and an Instigator Bolt Carbine, which is cheaper than 3 Lasfusil.

If we're just playing the MathHammer game, MH says not to take Lasfusile Eliminators or Devastators when a Vindicator is cheaper than either of them and throws 3.5 S10 Ap3 Dd6 shots on average. Heck, on a T7 double-shot on a Whirlwind at Ap 2 probably beats out all three of them.

Drager wrote:
Las fusiles strike me as incredibly good weapons, not least of all because of the reliability of flat damage 3. I'm probably going to expand with more examples, but I wanted to show the efficiency and reliability of these weapons compared to a lascannon.

Our target is T7 with a 3+ save and no invuln. We have no chapter traits and are using the Devastator Doctrine for both (so they are both AP-4). We are going to compare a las fusile Eliminators using the Sergeants +1 to hit and wound buff to a Lascannons, using the Devastator sergeants +1 to hit buff.

Las Fusile:

To Hit: 5/6
To Wound: 5/6
Damage: 3

Average Damage = 2.1
Probability of doing 3 damage = 69%

Las Cannon:

To Hit: 5/6
To Wound: 2/3
Damage: 3.5

Average Damage = 1.9
Probability of 1 or 2 damage = 21%
Probability of doing 3 damage = 7.2%
Probability of doing more than 3 damage = 28%

If we add in a chapter tactic that meshes well with single-shot weapons this shows the lascannon doing better on average, but the Fusil is still the better choice for reliability.

With Master Artisans

Las Fusile:

To Hit: 35/36
To Wound: 35/36
Damage: 3

Average Damage = 2.8
Probability of 0 damage = 5%
Probability of doing 3 damage = 95%

Las Cannon:

To Hit: 35/36
To Wound: 8/9
Damage: 3.5

Average Damage = 3
Probability of 0 damage = 14%
Probability of 1 or 2 damage = 29%
Probability of doing 3 or more damage = 14%
Probability of doing more than 3 damage = 43%

I'm going to expand this out to squads a bit later, that will reduce the effectiveness of Master Artisans, but still, show the incredible consistency of the Fusil squad.

This is well and good, but you're paying 99 points for 2 lasfusil shots or almost 50 per shot. Devastators are ~43 per shot.

2 * .833 * .833 * 3 = 4.2 / 99 = 0.042

2 * .833 * .666 * 3.5 = 3.9 / 170 = 0.022
3 * .666 * .666 * 3.5 = 4.7 / 170 = 0.027

Devastators are slightly better with the cherub and slightly worse without it. LC have better range, but Eliminators are probably more durable depending what shoots at them.

Whether or not you should use the eliminator sgt ability is the real question and I think it comes down to only when you're facing T8.

3 * .666 * .666 * 3 = 4

4 damage versus 4.2 is a 5% loss. When facing T8 -

2 * .833 * .666 * 3 = 3.3
3 * .666 * .5 * 3 = 3

It's a 10% loss. I'd probably prefer the extra dice for softer targets, but then it depends if you have a captain< nearby as well.

Drager wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'm also not 100% convinced the Sgt giving up his shot is worth +1 hit/wound on the other 2 guys. If the unit could be 5-man it might be worth it, buy taking away 33% of the unit's shots to give the remaining 67% only a 16% boost on their hit/wound rolls just seems like a wash to me.

Especially if you're say...Salamanders, or a Successor using Master Artisans

-

It definitely is.

3 Las fusils shooting at the example target above generates 1.4 wounding hits. With the sergeant giving his bonus it generates exactly the same average, but with higher consistency and for less cost. If you add in Master Artisans that changes in favour of the unit using the sergeant buff, because you only get one reroll and there are fewer shots. The unit is also cheaper as with this set up you can take 2 Las-Fusil and an Instigator Bolt Carbine, which is cheaper than 3 Lasfusil.

Consdiering you are playing space marines and can easily give these units reroll all hits and 1's to wound. More shots is always going to be better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Devestators are garbage without ablative wounds. You pretty much have to take 10 mans. Then you realize that devastators are garbage all the time. Venerable dread with twin lascannon and a rocket is better than all these options IMO.

Rereading the options.. I think I'll want to rethink my position.

I didn't realize you can run: 2x Las Fusil and a Instigator Carbine Sarge 98 points. Retains the Sarge Overwatch and scoot, also he can decline to shoot and now you have 2 shots, Hits on a 2+, wounds on a 2+/3+ almost all the time, does 3 flat damage.

Or you can also run 2 Snipers and a Instigator. Cost 74, You lose some good shot options on your sarge, but you can overwatch and scoot, or put all three on characters.

Or just go with the old 3 Snipers for 72 points. Cheap, no Overwatch and scoot though.

Or maybe 2 snipers and a sarge with Las-Fusil.

Isn’t the better comparison between Eliminators with lasfusils and those with Executioner rounds? Assuming the +1 to wound roll from the sgt also buffs mortal wound chance and str 5 (I don’t have the new dex yet) then Executioner rounds are very close to as good vs a Knight for less points and more versatility.

I came out with 1.67 wounds for the fusils vs T8 4++ compared to 1.39 with the sniper rounds.
Edit: that’s using sgt buff, no outside rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the sniper/instigator squad is only 74, then I’m thinking that’s the go to pick? Haven’t run the math, but given the above I’m guessing it’s better than 3 snipers vs anything except shooting chaff out of los from the instigator shots and is better per point at AT duty than fusils.

bort wrote:
Isn’t the better comparison between Eliminators with lasfusils and those with Executioner rounds? Assuming the +1 to wound roll from the sgt also buffs mortal wound chance and str 5 (I don’t have the new dex yet) then Executioner rounds are very close to as good vs a Knight for less points and more versatility.

I came out with 1.67 wounds for the fusils vs T8 4++ compared to 1.39 with the sniper rounds.
Edit: that’s using sgt buff, no outside rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the sniper/instigator squad is only 74, then I’m thinking that’s the go to pick? Haven’t run the math, but given the above I’m guessing it’s better than 3 snipers vs anything except shooting chaff out of los from the instigator shots and is better per point at AT duty than fusils.

Chances are, with the Mortal wound generator being 6+, that it is nearly as good. If you get something like, its the closest target and the +1 to wound from the Chaplain, it gets so dumb, so quick. Easy to see why they are limited to squads of 3.

Reemule wrote:

bort wrote:
Isn’t the better comparison between Eliminators with lasfusils and those with Executioner rounds? Assuming the +1 to wound roll from the sgt also buffs mortal wound chance and str 5 (I don’t have the new dex yet) then Executioner rounds are very close to as good vs a Knight for less points and more versatility.

I came out with 1.67 wounds for the fusils vs T8 4++ compared to 1.39 with the sniper rounds.
Edit: that’s using sgt buff, no outside rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the sniper/instigator squad is only 74, then I’m thinking that’s the go to pick? Haven’t run the math, but given the above I’m guessing it’s better than 3 snipers vs anything except shooting chaff out of los from the instigator shots and is better per point at AT duty than fusils.

Chances are, with the Mortal wound generator being 6+, that it is nearly as good. If you get something like, its the closest target and the +1 to wound from the Chaplain, it gets so dumb, so quick. Easy to see why they are limited to squads of 3.

Basically the procs in this codex have been changed to unmodified. As it really should have been from the start.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think they are really good. 1+ in cover means only anti tank is going to be effective against them.

I've even found that nothing is effective against them. You don't want to shoot them with anti-tank as they are just W2 duded, and even AP-2 or AP-3 has a big chance to bounce.
The only effective way to remove them is assault, which is impossible if they are sitting on a box or something.

Requiring an unmodified 6 to mortal drops the executioner shots down to 1.11, wounds which does put the lasfusil back on top for per point damage at the cost of the versatility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...Hrmm, actually if requiring unmodified 6s, then I’d go back to comparing regular scouts in there too. Back before the codex buff Eliminators were fine in their sniper shot damage except the fact that at half the shots per point as scouts meant half the mortals. Letting the sgt buff double their mortal chance is actually kind of important to make their damage comparable.

Eliminators have other perks, no question, but seems like they still aren’t Primaris AT.

They're AT against a lot of stuff. Just not everything.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think they are really good. 1+ in cover means only anti tank is going to be effective against them.

I've even found that nothing is effective against them. You don't want to shoot them with anti-tank as they are just W2 duded, and even AP-2 or AP-3 has a big chance to bounce.
The only effective way to remove them is assault, which is impossible if they are sitting on a box or something.

Right - It feels like a win when they are shooting anti tank at you. Cause you are getting a better save than the tank would in most cases and if you fail...oh well...you took out an infantry. I mean.... I'm gonna have some intercessors and a chapter master in front of them to protect them from assault.

There's always no cover save dissy cannons, but then you put them out of LoS.

There is also always Shrouding. ...well, 72% of the time there is Shrouding.

So how do the various combinations of captain chapter master, lieutenant and chaplain buffs affect the usefulness of the sergeant buff?

I'm playing pure Primaris, so I definitely want to get a squad or two of these, regardless.