Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes, I'm aware that GW is just starting to release new codices and suppliments, so there's no way to know which chapter will be the best at a Gunline army until all of the supplements and new codices are out. But, currently, if I was to start a new army today with the following units (no Primaris), which Space Marine Chapter would suit them best?



Thanks in advance!

SG

Anything Iron Hands or Salamanders

I know people like to ignore them or joke about them, but running against a strong Dark Angels castle is exceptionally unpleasant. If they get an updated book that throws on all the current Space Marine goodies (doctrines, etc.) it'll be...rough. The base "re-roll 1's to hit" when not moving is massive, and if it extends to vehicles, etc....phew.

I mean, Ultramarines seem stupid good. Always count as stationary, never take heavy weapon move penalties, fall back and still shoot.

Just going through Lexicanum, it seems Imperial Fists would be the best gunline army (though that may just be fluff not actual benefits): "The Imperial Fists also place great value in marksmanship and are renown for their accuracy with ranged weapons, especially boltguns. Battle-brothers spend a disproportionate amount of time in Devastator Companies in order to perfect the art of the long-range kill."

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I mean, Ultramarines seem stupid good. Always count as stationary, never take heavy weapon move penalties, fall back and still shoot.

You have to play MonoMARINES
You have to play MonoULTRAMARINES

Not worth it

Kap'n Krump wrote:I mean, Ultramarines seem stupid good. Always count as stationary, never take heavy weapon move penalties, fall back and still shoot.

It should be noted that their ability only counts on turn 2+ (if you never go to Assault Doctrine)

<Bellow is your army list with suggestions>


I despise Rhinos. Why in the feth take a box you can't shoot from to move dudes with guns up the board? Hide them inside? Why not take more bodies?

The drop pods I can't, in good conscience, shy you from. They're going to be a GLORIOUS mess for a while. I'd suggest sterguard though.

ServiceGames wrote:
Thanks in advance!

SG

[/spoiler]

ServiceGames wrote:Just going through Lexicanum, it seems Imperial Fists would be the best gunline army (though that may just be fluff not actual benefits): "The Imperial Fists also place great value in marksmanship and are renown for their accuracy with ranged weapons, especially boltguns. Battle-brothers spend a disproportionate amount of time in Devastator Companies in order to perfect the art of the long-range kill."

So to go with my above points...Imperial Fists seems like it would suit your playstyle. They're all about a fusillade of bolter fire perfectly aimed...this is, coincidentally, my preferred method of marine warfare. I do have to make a few points and ask a few questions though:

Why no Primaris? If ethical...cool we can work with that. If not sold...trust me in that one of the single best investments for an Imperial Fist is an Indominus Crusade Battalion dialed up to the 9s. Your Bolter fire will be GLORIOUS.

So paring it all down to what I know:

Drop the lascannons and most of the missiles (I like 1 for the strategem). Do two battalions of tac marines with weapons....namely Heavy Bolters as you only get your free hits with Bolt weapons and the supplement will, most assuredly, give us back out Bolter Drill that, again, will only work on bolters. Next I'd lean into those two drop pods with Sterguard Vets (If I weren't going so primaris heavy I'd do this). I wouldn't even give them special weapons...take their special issue bolter. In this case I'd rock 2 10man squads instead of the 5s...but you could be cheaky and rock 4 5man squads and load up the sargeants with T-hammers. Perhaps a 10man (for the strategem) and 2 5man.

With the strategem you'll wound anything on a 5+, most tanks on a 4+, and mow through chaff on a 3+ or 2+. They already come wiht -2AP and have -3AP (cuts through almost all armor) on turn 2+.

Contrary to popular belief: you don't need heavy guns to kill tanks and the like. You DO need a way to deal with them...however, ignoring them and killing everything else is a method that works. Also massed bolter fire WILL kill tanks...it just works A LOT better with actual Bolt Rifles (also sterguard bolters) hence my query on Primaris.

Fire any questions and I'll pop by when I have time

Yeah - mass str 5 firepower is really good at killing tanks to be honest.

IMHO I'd paint up a custom chapter and decide on who they're a sucessor of later once all the supllements come out and you can get a feel for how they play. I really like Ultramarines but their rules almsot enchourage a mobile gunline

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - mass str 5 firepower is really good at killing tanks to be honest.

Especially if it's -2....yeah, the Strength 5 was already the break point for cheap "do everything" weapons. Heap some AP on there and it's even better.

Bitharne wrote:
5 man Tac squads. 10 Mans are utterly wasteful. I'd suggest Combi-Plas on your sergeants not pistols. Combine this with my stance on devastators to run TWO battalions with only markedly lower firepower and more survival.

The Tac squads are actually coming from Betrayal at Calth... all MKIV. It's been a VERY long time since I assembled these models, but it seems like they were more designed to be three 10 man squads. I'm not sure if that works better in 30K or if 7th edition 40K just worked better with 10 man squads back in those days. That said, I can see if I can take out the heavy weapon marines and equip them with just a Bolter. I can't remember if I have all he bits needed to do that, but if I do... it should be possible (I think)

Bitharne wrote:
1 is none. The assault marines are super out of place and useless. Either go heavier on this and less on elites or learn into elites harder. This could be a place where you disregard my above and go with a Brigade!

There really are three total Assault squads within my Elites and Fast Attack... Assault Termies, Assault Marines, and Vanguard Veterans. Granted, the Termies and Marines would have different movement speeds, but Assault is almost half of my Elites

Bitharne wrote:
I just, generally, dislike devastators. They lose TONS of points and firepower much too early for my taste. Sure the firepower is impressive...but if you get turn two you'll probably lose 1-2 squads of these. Better, imo, to split the difference and take less guns (either in tac squads or dev squads with 2 guns instead) so the opponent is more hard pressed to reduce your, admittedly lower, firepower. Do remember that bolters are not useless!

While you are 100% correct that Bolters are better now, I still love Dev squads. Is it a smart idea to take them? I'm not 100% sure yet, but I do enjoy seeing the big guns coming out. My guess is that most likely the missile launchers and lascannons will sit back and wait while the Bolters move up (either in a Drop Pod or Rhinos). I might have enough bodies to put a Plasma Cannon squad in the army as well. I'll definitely keep in mind pulling them down to 2 big guns versus 4 though.

Bitharne wrote:
I, personally, don't like flyers; but again, 1 is none. Maybe drop the dedicated transports, all, and take a second?

I will address this when I address your question about Primaris below.

Bitharne wrote:
Why no Primaris? If ethical...cool we can work with that. If not sold...trust me in that one of the single best investments for an Imperial Fist is an Indominus Crusade Battalion dialed up to the 9s. Your Bolter fire will be GLORIOUS.

I literally have nothing against Primaris at all. When I picked up my Dark Imperium set, I ordered a second set of both sides eventually over time. But, all are painted as Dark Angels. So, if I have a Dark Angels army, why am I making another? With the ability to create your own chapter, select your own chapter tactics now, etc., I wanted to give it a shot. Turns out I have around 3000 points of regular space marines that either were part of 7th Edition formation that simply won't work anymore or have been sitting in a box waiting for me to decide what I want to do with them. So, I decided that I would use them all for this new army (including the one flyer).

Bitharne wrote:
So paring it all down to what I know:

Drop the lascannons and most of the missiles (I like 1 for the strategem). Do two battalions of tac marines with weapons....namely Heavy Bolters as you only get your free hits with Bolt weapons and the supplement will, most assuredly, give us back out Bolter Drill that, again, will only work on bolters. Next I'd lean into those two drop pods with Sterguard Vets (If I weren't going so primaris heavy I'd do this). I wouldn't even give them special weapons...take their special issue bolter. In this case I'd rock 2 10man squads instead of the 5s...but you could be cheaky and rock 4 5man squads and load up the sargeants with T-hammers. Perhaps a 10man (for the strategem) and 2 5man.

With the strategem you'll wound anything on a 5+, most tanks on a 4+, and mow through chaff on a 3+ or 2+. They already come wiht -2AP and have -3AP (cuts through almost all armor) on turn 2+.

Contrary to popular belief: you don't need heavy guns to kill tanks and the like. You DO need a way to deal with them...however, ignoring them and killing everything else is a method that works. Also massed bolter fire WILL kill tanks...it just works A LOT better with actual Bolt Rifles (also sterguard bolters) hence my query on Primaris.

Fire any questions and I'll pop by when I have time

I'll definitely keep all this in mind and study it a bit more to see what I can do and can't do with what I have over the next week or so while I decide which chapter tactics I'd like to use (though a straight successor chapter of the Imperial Fists seems like the best route).

Thanks again!

SG

 Elbows wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - mass str 5 firepower is really good at killing tanks to be honest.

Especially if it's -2....yeah, the Strength 5 was already the break point for cheap "do everything" weapons. Heap some AP on there and it's even better.

Mathhammer on a heavy bolter vs a lasscannon?

Interesting actually...3 shots vs 1. Half and again the cost. Benefits from more stuff: IF Bolter trait (and later Bolter Drill). Mortal Wound strat.

I'd still suggest pulping the rest of the army then charging/shooting the rest as needed. No self-respecting Imperial Fist player would run their sargeants without Power Fists!! heh

Sorry about that... double post

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:


I'll definitely keep all this in mind and study it a bit more to see what I can do and can't do with what I have over the next week or so while I decide which chapter tactics I'd like to use (though a straight successor chapter of the Imperial Fists seems like the best route).

Thanks again!

SG

Ya. I see some of your issues. If there's anyone around that's good at making "what I want" to work, work...i'm your man. I'll always point you towards what's more optimal, then suggest what works with what you want, then we'll dig down and make what you're certain you want to run work as best as it can.

To that effect: yes...it's best to do 5man tac squads with 1 weapon (heavy bolter spam would be amazing as Imperial Fists) and a combi-plas (almost free extra firepower).

You assault can work as done up...but their kind of TOO different imo. They'll ignore the assault marines and target the elite ones. Probably just distract the terminators. So I feel you'll run into some issues as it's currently arrayed.

Good luck to you!

Bitharne wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - mass str 5 firepower is really good at killing tanks to be honest.

Especially if it's -2....yeah, the Strength 5 was already the break point for cheap "do everything" weapons. Heap some AP on there and it's even better.

Mathhammer on a heavy bolter vs a lasscannon?

Interesting actually...3 shots vs 1. Half and again the cost. Benefits from more stuff: IF Bolter trait (and later Bolter Drill). Mortal Wound strat.

I'd still suggest pulping the rest of the army then charging/shooting the rest as needed. No self-respecting Imperial Fist player would run their sargeants without Power Fists!! heh

Multiwound targets with 3+ saves Lascannon Vs Heavy Bolter looks like:

.667*.667*3.5 vs 3*.667*.333*.667 assuming dev doctrine.

So a lascannon does roughly 3x the damage assuming no overkill wounds and no invul.

Probably Raven Guard.

Honestly considering all the flamers and melee units you might want to consider a custom chapter with the +3" gun range sub-trait and one of the melee traits as a White Scar successor.

Assault Marines, Cataphracii Terminators, and a Libby that can drop at 9", hand out "no overwatch vs this unit", shoot with the flamers, and then get a charge distance bonus or two sound like a thing that might catch people off-guard.

The best gunline is the one that goes straight into the trash. Be a better person, don't bring a mindless army that isn't fun for either player.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Probably Raven Guard.

Unless they're fighting against Imperial Fists, it seems.

Hard to say until the books come out though. Even then they seem very mtchup/build dependent. I would think/hope that in the end Imperial Fists ought to be the best at it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Probably Raven Guard.

Unless they're fighting against Imperial Fists, it seems.

Hard to say until the books come out though. Even then they seem very mtchup/build dependent. I would think/hope that in the end Imperial Fists ought to be the best at it.

I suspect Imperial Fists will be uncommon enough for it not to matter. A tank-based gunline would obviously benefit from being Iron Hands or Ultramarines, but I think a universal +1 Armor and, if you're in cover, -1 to hit, will go a long way for Raven Guard. Getting units into to melee/short ranged with Space Marines promises to be harder than pretty much any other faction, since they have the tools.

ERJAK wrote:

Bitharne wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - mass str 5 firepower is really good at killing tanks to be honest.

Especially if it's -2....yeah, the Strength 5 was already the break point for cheap "do everything" weapons. Heap some AP on there and it's even better.

Mathhammer on a heavy bolter vs a lasscannon?

Interesting actually...3 shots vs 1. Half and again the cost. Benefits from more stuff: IF Bolter trait (and later Bolter Drill). Mortal Wound strat.

I'd still suggest pulping the rest of the army then charging/shooting the rest as needed. No self-respecting Imperial Fist player would run their sargeants without Power Fists!! heh

Multiwound targets with 3+ saves Lascannon Vs Heavy Bolter looks like:

.667*.667*3.5 vs 3*.667*.333*.667 assuming dev doctrine.

So a lascannon does roughly 3x the damage assuming no overkill wounds and no invul.

Its interesting though when you have a redemptory dread with 18 str 5 ap-2 shooting at a tank. It's about as good as - 3 lascannons?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Probably Raven Guard.

Unless they're fighting against Imperial Fists, it seems.

Hard to say until the books come out though. Even then they seem very mtchup/build dependent. I would think/hope that in the end Imperial Fists ought to be the best at it.

I suspect Imperial Fists will be uncommon enough for it not to matter. A tank-based gunline would obviously benefit from being Iron Hands or Ultramarines, but I think a universal +1 Armor and, if you're in cover, -1 to hit, will go a long way for Raven Guard. Getting units into to melee/short ranged with Space Marines promises to be harder than pretty much any other faction, since they have the tools.

Imp Fists might be more popular once their supplement comes out

BrianDavion wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Probably Raven Guard.

Unless they're fighting against Imperial Fists, it seems.

Hard to say until the books come out though. Even then they seem very mtchup/build dependent. I would think/hope that in the end Imperial Fists ought to be the best at it.

I suspect Imperial Fists will be uncommon enough for it not to matter. A tank-based gunline would obviously benefit from being Iron Hands or Ultramarines, but I think a universal +1 Armor and, if you're in cover, -1 to hit, will go a long way for Raven Guard. Getting units into to melee/short ranged with Space Marines promises to be harder than pretty much any other faction, since they have the tools.

Imp Fists might be more popular once their supplement comes out

Raven Guard also stand to gain.

We'll definitely have to see though. Stratagems will be what makes-or-breaks, the Fists' CT isn't top-shelf, though there's worse out there, and what is top shelf hasn't been quite nailed down yet.

agreed. strats and doctrinal ability. it makes the Ultramarines go from "meh" to ".... ohh wow this is good"

 Peregrine wrote:
The best gunline is the one that goes straight into the trash. Be a better person, don't bring a mindless army that isn't fun for either player.

Way to add... nothing of particular value or advice to a good conversation! Players are allowed to enjoy playing and playing into a gunline Peregrine, long as you're not playing on planet bowling alley it's all good.


In relation to best marine gunline I personally throw my vote in with the aforementioned Salamanders or Iron Hands. They are going to be a challenge for me in my local meta (as we have some players with GOREGEOUSLY painted armies!) and I look forward to adjusting my plans.

I would say imperial fists are the best gunline choice. There are a ton of bolt weapons out there that benefit. There is the obvious ones like heavy bolters, primarchs wrath... but remember the Fire Raptor? What's the name of its nose gun again? Two quad heavy bolters? Hmmm...

StarHunter25 wrote:
I would say imperial fists are the best gunline choice. There are a ton of bolt weapons out there that benefit. There is the obvious ones like heavy bolters, primarchs wrath... but remember the Fire Raptor? What's the name of its nose gun again? Two quad heavy bolters? Hmmm...

Aggressors get kind of stupid with it. You can stack Master of the Chapter and Chaplain invocations and actually average more hits than the number of attacks on the unit, and the more attacks you have the more obnoxious that gets. Nothing in the faction has more attacks per point than Aggressors.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
The best gunline is the one that goes straight into the trash. Be a better person, don't bring a mindless army that isn't fun for either player.

Way to add... nothing of particular value or advice to a good conversation! Players are allowed to enjoy playing and playing into a gunline Peregrine, long as you're not playing on planet bowling alley it's all good.

Its very relevant and useful to point out that taking a gunline, while not technically illegal, is one of those things (like not painting your models, getting mad when you lose, etc) that is likely to cause all of your local players to mysteriously have other commitments every time you show up looking for a game. But sure, if you don't mind playing 95% of your games against the TFG that nobody else is willing to play with go ahead and build a gunline.

I rather enjoy the challenge of taking apart a good gunline.

 Elbows wrote:
I know people like to ignore them or joke about them, but running against a strong Dark Angels castle is exceptionally unpleasant. If they get an updated book that throws on all the current Space Marine goodies (doctrines, etc.) it'll be...rough. The base "re-roll 1's to hit" when not moving is massive, and if it extends to vehicles, etc....phew.

Agreed. They certainly won't be top right now with all the awesome toys the Codex chapters got, but -1 to hit aura and 4++ aura are both amazing and something other marines would kill for.