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2019/08/22 13:40:17
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
It might be slightly easier if you're just talking about applying a set colour scheme to a standard, mono-pose miniature - at that level it's not far off, say, manufacturing an action figure; just a difference in quality.
But for a computer to be able to take any miniature and apply a paint scheme to it would require some serious AI and also some serious robotics.
Put it like this... In my first job (nearly 20 years ago now) I had a little low-level side project to work on involving image processing. In a nutshell, the brief I had was to write some code that would scan a grey-scale image and verify whether there was a circle in an expected location. It was bloody hard, and I never actually managed it before I was made redundant. Image recognition is *hard*.
What you'd need to achieve for something like this, is:
- scanning an extremely complex 3d shape
- analysing it to identify what it is, out of a library of miniatures (that can vary in terms of what components are used to assemble the miniature, what pose they are assembled in, how well they are assembled / cleaned, etc...)
- breaking the model down into components (i.e. that bit is a boot, that bit is a leg, that bit is a gun, that bit is a belt, etc)
Once you've achieved that, applying the paint is probably the comparatively easy bit. You'd probably need some sort of robotic assembly-line set up with a combination of sprays and manual brush-like applicators. And image scanning and verification at each stage to confirm that paint has been applied where needed and not applied where not needed. Not the sort of thing that would be achievable at home.
It's not going to be possible, and certainly not inexpensively, for the foreseeable future I'd say. Let's face it, the biggest model companies in the world aren't doing it. GW aren't doing anything with pre-painted models. As far as I am aware, FFG's X-Wing minis are all hand-painted - it's far cheaper to employ a bunch of Chinese dudes with little paint brushes than it is to set up the aforementioned robot painting assembly line.
As for am I worried about it? Why would I be? The only people who potentially might be are professional painting studios. The painting stormtroopers aren't going to raid my house and force my minis through the painting robot... To be honest if they did though, it'd save me a job and probably look better...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 14:18:08
2019/08/22 14:16:50
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
Maybe, if you could somehow quantify what a "good" paint job is. Theoretically it should be possible for a computer to copy an existing paint scheme very accurately, but a much bigger challenge is having the computer come up with its own colour scheme and then applying it properly. There's a lot of work been done in image recognition that could possibly be applied to this problem - things like enabling a computer to recognise the various parts of a model (weapons, armour, grenades, etc) but it would be extremely difficult for a computer to differentiate between, say, clothes and body armour.
As far as being worried about it, why would anyone be worried? If you like painting your own models you'd still do it, if you want pre-painted by a computer you can get that too. Pre-painted miniatures exist right now, some of them pretty good quality and it's not something anyone, even painters, complain about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 14:17:50
2019/08/22 14:19:47
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
It might be slightly easier if you're just talking about applying a set colour scheme to a standard, mono-pose miniature - at that level it's not far off, say, manufacturing an action figure; just a difference in quality.
But for a computer to be able to take any miniature and apply a paint scheme to it would require some serious AI and also some serious robotics.
Put it like this... In my first job (nearly 20 years ago now) I had a little low-level side project to work on involving image processing. In a nutshell, the brief I had was to write some code that would scan a grey-scale image and verify whether there was a circle in an expected location. It was bloody hard, and I never actually managed it before I was made redundant. Image recognition is *hard*.
What you'd need to achieve for something like this, is:
- scanning an extremely complex 3d shape
- analysing it to identify what it is, out of a library of miniatures (that can vary in terms of what components are used to assemble the miniature, what pose they are assembled in, how well they are assembled / cleaned, etc...)
- breaking the model down into components (i.e. that bit is a boot, that bit is a leg, that bit is a gun, that bit is a belt, etc)
Once you've achieved that, applying the paint is probably the comparatively easy bit. You'd probably need some sort of robotic assembly-line set up with a combination of sprays and manual brush-like applicators. And image scanning and verification at each stage to confirm that paint has been applied where needed and not applied where not needed. Not the sort of thing that would be achievable at home.
It's not going to be possible, and certainly not inexpensively, for the foreseeable future I'd say. Let's face it, the biggest model companies in the world aren't doing it. GW aren't doing anything with pre-painted models. As far as I am aware, FFG's X-Wing minis are all hand-painted - it's far cheaper to employ a bunch of Chinese dudes with little paint brushes than it is to set up the aforementioned robot painting assembly line.
As for am I worried about it? Why would I be? The only people who potentially might be are professional painting studios. The painting stormtroopers aren't going to raid my house and force my minis through the painting robot... To be honest if they did though, it'd save me a job and probably look better...
I suppose "worried" because a computer can do a better or just as good as job as you. But i suppose its irrelevant because hand painted is hand painted and that is always more awesome. But im just wondering how many years this would take for AI etc to reach this level.
But you make good points, thank you for your message.
I dont really know why you would be worried really, but im just asking the question any way to see the answers given by whom ever.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 14:22:33
You would never build a machine to paint a mini. Instead you'd just use a 3d printer to print one out in color.
Probably another 5-10 years minimum for color 3d printers to reach the same level of fidelity as a hand painted mini. Then likely another 5-10 years after that for them to become affordable to the average hobbyist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 14:30:40
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2019/08/22 14:30:34
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
Not likely. In addition to the shape recognition problem the hardware capable of that level of precision motion/position control is incredibly expensive. Nobody is going to pay $1 million for a painting robot.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/22 14:37:27
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
slave.entity wrote: You would never build a machine to paint a mini. Instead you'd just use a 3d printer to print one out in color.
Probably another 5-10 years minimum for color 3d printers to reach the same level of fidelity as a hand painted mini.
What level is that? i don't understand. Top tier commission painters level?.
Any level. Top tier commission painters level, sure. Whatever you like. The "paint job" will be as good as the artist who supplied the files for you to print. In the future, a 3d artist will be able to sculpt a model in zBrush, paint it digitally, and hobbyists will be able to print out the "fully painted" models on their own. All you would need is the files.
This is already happening now btw, just not in color.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 14:37:48
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2019/08/22 14:43:56
Subject: Re:Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
It really isn't. Remember, the printers with the best quality work by curing precise spots in a tank of liquid resin. You can't do color with that.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/22 14:47:29
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
There are lots of 3d artists releasing miniatures for print already.
Painting is not happening. Miniatures for print are, but quality is uneven and you still get single color plastic.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/22 14:58:13
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
There are lots of 3d artists releasing miniatures for print already.
Painting is not happening. Miniatures for print are, but quality is uneven and you still get single color plastic.
I recommend re-reading my post.
What about your post? I said that painted printed miniatures aren't happening, you replied that artists are releasing miniatures for print. That reply has nothing to do with what I said isn't happening. Nobody is disputing that people are selling (or giving away) 3d print files, but that gets you a plain gray plastic model. Nobody is doing painted models, or even close to doing painted models.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/22 15:26:23
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
There are lots of 3d artists releasing miniatures for print already.
Painting is not happening. Miniatures for print are, but quality is uneven and you still get single color plastic.
I recommend re-reading my post.
What about your post? I said that painted printed miniatures aren't happening, you replied that artists are releasing miniatures for print. That reply has nothing to do with what I said isn't happening. Nobody is disputing that people are selling (or giving away) 3d print files, but that gets you a plain gray plastic model. Nobody is doing painted models, or even close to doing painted models.
slave.entity wrote: You would never build a machine to paint a mini. Instead you'd just use a 3d printer to print one out in color.
Probably another 5-10 years minimum for color 3d printers to reach the same level of fidelity as a hand painted mini. Then likely another 5-10 years after that for them to become affordable to the average hobbyist.
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2019/08/22 15:31:14
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
Image/pattern recognition is not the hurdle people think it is. Machine learning has come a very long ways in the last ten years alone.
Software that can analyze an image and spot faces, read words, identify animals, even track patterns and flag suspicious behavior is now commonplace. Not cutting-edge research, but in actual, practical use by everyone from Google to surveillance states.
But slave.entity is right, it's full-color 3D printing that I think will be more practical. And it's not coming, it's already here.
We're at least a few years away from a hobbyist-at-home implementation of the technology, but it's not science fiction.
probably at some point, but I'll ask what I always ask when this comes up. why would you want that? fair enough, for some folks who don't like painting, it would be a way for them to have nice models. personally, as a painter I can't understand why anyone wouldnt want to paint their own stuff.
This came up in tattoo circles recently..would you let a machine tattoo you.. and I guarantee anyone who appreciates anything about tattoos, eg not your average tattooed F-boy you get now, would say no. the human element is a massive part of the whole experience.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 15:36:55
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2019/08/22 15:37:04
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
slave.entity wrote: You would never build a machine to paint a mini. Instead you'd just use a 3d printer to print one out in color.
Probably another 5-10 years minimum for color 3d printers to reach the same level of fidelity as a hand painted mini. Then likely another 5-10 years after that for them to become affordable to the average hobbyist.
What about it? Your speculation has nothing to do with reality. The highest-resolution printers use a method that is inherently incompatible with printing in different colors. So what exactly is your 5-10 year estimate based on? Wishful thinking?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/22 15:37:20
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
catbarf wrote: Image/pattern recognition is not the hurdle people think it is. Machine learning has come a very long ways in the last ten years alone.
Software that can analyze an image and spot faces, read words, identify animals, even track patterns and flag suspicious behavior is now commonplace. Not cutting-edge research, but in actual, practical use by everyone from Google to surveillance states.
But slave.entity is right, it's full-color 3D printing that I think will be more practical. And it's not coming, it's already here.
We're at least a few years away from a hobbyist-at-home implementation of the technology, but it's not science fiction.
Exactly. Like I mentioned in my post, we're still probably at least a decade or two away before affordable color 3d printers can achieve fidelity that rivals a hand painted mini. The tech already exists, but the cost/quality are no where near comparable to hand painted injection molded minis .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 15:38:46
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2019/08/22 15:39:48
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
look at signage.. for ages people used vinyl printed signs or decals. then someone must've dug out an old hand painted sign from the 1950s, and gone, damn that looks so much better. now tons of people have got hand painted signage, and good signwriters are raking it in.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2019/08/22 15:42:19
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
slave.entity wrote: You would never build a machine to paint a mini. Instead you'd just use a 3d printer to print one out in color.
Probably another 5-10 years minimum for color 3d printers to reach the same level of fidelity as a hand painted mini. Then likely another 5-10 years after that for them to become affordable to the average hobbyist.
What about it? Your speculation has nothing to do with reality. The highest-resolution printers use a method that is inherently incompatible with printing in different colors. So what exactly is your 5-10 year estimate based on? Wishful thinking?
We're not even disagreeing about anything. You actually just failed to read the content of my post before coming in to try and tell someone they're wrong. Please try to read what people are saying next time. This back and forth ends now.
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2019/08/22 15:42:35
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
I honestly hadn't realised 3d printing had got to this point yet. 10 million colours, including transparent; and water soluble support structures - genius idea.
I can't afford one though...
2019/08/22 15:47:59
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
I honestly hadn't realised 3d printing had got to this point yet. 10 million colours, including transparent; and water soluble support structures - genius idea.
I can't afford one though...
Good marketing hype, results are trash for anything but cheap toys or prototypes.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/22 15:49:47
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
Yeah i cant imagine any thing being very cheap or affordable if you compare the quality of alot of commission painters on here / top teir painters. Id imagine it would be expensive just any current model of high quality paint job.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 15:50:34
I think even if they do eventually become good enough, there will still be plenty of people, like myself, who spurn it. this is art at the end of the day, and computers dont make art, and never will.
Art is a human concept, and needs human input as an integral part of it to be considered so.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2019/08/22 15:57:22
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
I honestly hadn't realised 3d printing had got to this point yet. 10 million colours, including transparent; and water soluble support structures - genius idea.
I can't afford one though...
Good marketing hype, results are trash for anything but cheap toys or prototypes.
I dunno... I have no personal experience with it, but if it can do stuff like this then that's probably in line with what Stormatious was asking about...
2019/08/22 15:58:56
Subject: Re:Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
As I mentioned, color 3d printing at this level is still far away. But unpainted minis, consumer-level SLA printing is already getting within striking distance of injection-molded models. You can still tell they are lower quality of course. But we're getting there.
Here are examples of what's currently possible with SLA printing.
More examples:
Spoiler:
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 16:07:14
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2019/08/22 16:10:16
Subject: Re:Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
slave.entity wrote: Patreon is where you should be looking for high quality, printable miniatures by 3d artists. The Makers Cult stuff is actually getting pretty good.
As I mentioned, color 3d printing at this level is still far away. But unpainted minis, consumer-level SLA printing is already getting within striking distance of injection-molded models. You can still tell they are lower quality of course. But we're getting there.
Here are examples of what's currently possible with SLA printing.
Crispy78 wrote: I dunno... I have no personal experience with it, but if it can do stuff like this then that's probably in line with what Stormatious was asking about...
You mean fuzzy color and obvious print lines? Maybe that's better than the 10 year olds blobbing on random colors of paint so heavily you can barely see the model anymore, but it's still trash. And it's also done at a much larger scale than a typical miniature so the resolution demands are much easier to meet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 16:12:57
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/08/22 16:12:35
Subject: Will computers ever paint as good as painting studios / professionals?
slave.entity wrote: Patreon is where you should be looking for high quality, printable miniatures by 3d artists. The Makers Cult stuff is actually getting pretty good.
As I mentioned, color 3d printing at this level is still far away. But unpainted minis, consumer-level SLA printing is already getting within striking distance of injection-molded models. You can still tell they are lower quality of course. But we're getting there.
Here are examples of what's currently possible with SLA printing.
More examples:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
So they were painted by hand?
Yes. Color 3d printers won't print this well for a long time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 16:15:49
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
