Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Tell that to any player who had charge fail due to difficult terrain, a vehicle immobilize itself trying to cross a river, or losing a key model cause they tried to move through dangerous terrain. There was a lot more to terrain than just cover saves.

Except A) reduction in charges is still a thing, so I have no idea what you're talking about, especially seeing it was a lot harder to fail charges in editions where you could charge from deep strike 3 inches away or from tons of assault vehicles, B ) lack of immobilization is function of new vehicle rules, not terrain, and in any way, that only happened on 1, would never happen in this edition due to reroll stratagem, and it almost never happened in past editions thanks to dozer blades or MC rules, C ) losing models in that way was kind of dumb (what, that terminator stumbled and broke his neck or something?) and can be replicated in this edition for a lot of armies, so it's not that valid concern anyway.

Going from 3+ to 2+ is huge. It's pretty much identical to -1 to hit against most weapons.

And they don't lose -1 to hit against armies that ignore cover. All it says is that you need to be on or within terrain. You're still considered on or within terrain whether it provides the cover save or not.

The demise of Raven Guard has been greatly exaggerated.

Lemondish wrote:
Going from 3+ to 2+ is huge. It's pretty much identical to -1 to hit against most weapons.

And they don't lose -1 to hit against armies that ignore cover. All it says is that you need to be on or within terrain. You're still considered on or within terrain whether it provides the cover save or not.

The demise of Raven Guard has been greatly exaggerated.

You're right that their chapter tactic is still decent. You do indeed get the -1 in terrain even against ignores cover.

But the demise of Raven Guard really came from the nerf of the Strat. Current state of the game, if you don't run Ultras or White Scars (at least as successors) you are gimping yourself. It's that big a power drop.

That should be fixed with the release of the rest of the supplements though.

But with the number of shots being thrown around at -2 or lower AP, does it matter if you have +1 to cover, that is assuming the other armies doesn't just have a blank rule to ignore cover?

a +5 or +6 sv is't really a save when you have to roll 8+ of them.

Karol wrote:
But with the number of shots being thrown around at -2 or lower AP, does it matter if you have +1 to cover, that is assuming the other armies doesn't just have a blank rule to ignore cover?

a +5 or +6 sv is't really a save when you have to roll 8+ of them.

5+ save is way better than 6+. You're blocking twice as many shots.

Also, the best bit about the trait is the -1 to hit still. It shouldn't be difficult to get. If it is, you're probably not playing with enough terrain. Remember ANY terrain will give you it, it doesn't even have to grant cover.

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
But with the number of shots being thrown around at -2 or lower AP, does it matter if you have +1 to cover, that is assuming the other armies doesn't just have a blank rule to ignore cover?

a +5 or +6 sv is't really a save when you have to roll 8+ of them.

5+ save is way better than 6+. You're blocking twice as many shots.

Also, the best bit about the trait is the -1 to hit still. It shouldn't be difficult to get. If it is, you're probably not playing with enough terrain. Remember ANY terrain will give you it, it doesn't even have to grant cover.

Yeah but that's still not good as just getting a permanent-1 to being shot at all times. Not all units can be in cover or want to be in cover. If you want to take objectives and players know you have that ability theyll just stick them in the open so you lose your ability to get the -1 for example. And a table probably isn't going to have enough terrain that marines on foot can reliably make it from piece to piece. Or you know, the simple fact that you're probably not fitting a 2000pt space marine army in cover and doing anything useful.

Don't get me wrong, I think raven guard still have a strong tactic, but it isn't as good as what they had. It's a nerf, that's a fact, run the math on it and you'll see. Whoop de Doo, you save against plasma on a 5 sometimes instead of a 6, you could've just been hit by plasma less in the first place with less odds of them having overcharged because they'd kill themselves on 2's. I could go on and on.

But this is a good thing, it needed to be nerfed. Altaoic, stygies, and Alpha Legion need it too, but with the way GW does rules releases we're stuck with that for a bit longer. Now armies like IG, and to a degree orks won't feel like they shouldn't have bothered unpacking their armies in these matchups. These armies can deal with cover, they couldn't really deal with hit modifiers.

 Stux wrote:

Karol wrote:
But with the number of shots being thrown around at -2 or lower AP, does it matter if you have +1 to cover, that is assuming the other armies doesn't just have a blank rule to ignore cover?

a +5 or +6 sv is't really a save when you have to roll 8+ of them.

5+ save is way better than 6+. You're blocking twice as many shots.

Also, the best bit about the trait is the -1 to hit still. It shouldn't be difficult to get. If it is, you're probably not playing with enough terrain. Remember ANY terrain will give you it, it doesn't even have to grant cover.

If 5 of my dudes have to make 5-7 saves on +5 it may as well be a +6sv, because most of the time they die anyway. Plus having a special rule, that other army or worse armies, just turn off, sucks. you couldn't turn off -1 to hit, unless you were a dark reaper. If a RG player ends up facing an army with a blanket no cover rule, they are just playing with half a chapter tactic, and there is absolutly nothing pro active they can do about it, besides maybe saying they army is a RG one, no those are silvery ravens who were always an ultrmarine successor.

If you have 5 dudes and 5 saves to make, on average only 3 die with a 5+ save. It does often help.

As I say though, the best but is still the -1 to hit, which you'll still get a lot of the time.

only with the number of shots, generated in 8th ed. I really can't remember the last time someone shot me with 5-7 bolters.

A+5 or +6 sv are memes, you can't realiably roll them, and if your in a situation where your army does gain something from having a +5sv, your dudes are probably running in group of 100+ per table. IMO the nerf is huge. What RG gain is worse, situational, and there are armies that counter it full stop. Worse thing is that the RG player can't really do anything about it, Before they could play with range spread, use IG chaff to push away other armies etc. Now it is just play something that ignores cover, your rule does not exist.

Karol wrote:
only with the number of shots, generated in 8th ed. I really can't remember the last time someone shot me with 5-7 bolters.

A+5 or +6 sv are memes, you can't realiably roll them, and if your in a situation where your army does gain something from having a +5sv, your dudes are probably running in group of 100+ per table. IMO the nerf is huge. What RG gain is worse, situational, and there are armies that counter it full stop. Worse thing is that the RG player can't really do anything about it, Before they could play with range spread, use IG chaff to push away other armies etc. Now it is just play something that ignores cover, your rule does not exist.

It is a nerf, but a nerf that had to happen. What they have now is still good. Army wide -1 to hit without having to work for it is ridiculous.

The real problem with the army is not this, it's that Strike from the Shadows was hobbled.

There's no point grumbling about them until the Supplement is released though, as judging by the two we've had it should be quite the power bump!

RG tanks are big winners from the change. Prepared positions now makes your executioner -1 to hit with a 2+ save. That puts RG as perhaps the only chapter capable of fielding executioners worth taking - their glassiness is such a drawback to an otherwise good unit.

 grouchoben wrote:
RG tanks are big winners from the change. Prepared positions now makes your executioner -1 to hit with a 2+ save. That puts RG as perhaps the only chapter capable of fielding executioners worth taking - their glassiness is such a drawback to an otherwise good unit.

You may want to reread that chapter tactic as it's only -1 to hit in cover for infantry units, not sure what tanks your think have infantry keyword.

To be fair I think a blanket -1 to hit whilst in cover is still to good. No army should get it. Similarly, no army should get ignore all cover since it removes an entire aspect of the game...that admittedly needs improvement.

Ice_can wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
RG tanks are big winners from the change. Prepared positions now makes your executioner -1 to hit with a 2+ save. That puts RG as perhaps the only chapter capable of fielding executioners worth taking - their glassiness is such a drawback to an otherwise good unit.

You may want to reread that chapter tactic as it's only -1 to hit in cover for infantry units, not sure what tanks your think have infantry keyword.

It's actually even more restrictive than that. Getting Cover doesn't give you the -1, you have to be physically on terrain, and be INFANTRY.

Prepared Positions in itself won't give anything -1 to hit, the units will still need to actually be on terrain.

 Stux wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
RG tanks are big winners from the change. Prepared positions now makes your executioner -1 to hit with a 2+ save. That puts RG as perhaps the only chapter capable of fielding executioners worth taking - their glassiness is such a drawback to an otherwise good unit.

You may want to reread that chapter tactic as it's only -1 to hit in cover for infantry units, not sure what tanks your think have infantry keyword.

It's actually even more restrictive than that. Getting Cover doesn't give you the -1, you have to be physically on terrain, and be INFANTRY.

Prepared Positions in itself won't give anything -1 to hit, the units will still need to actually be on terrain.

Your totally correct, bad wording on my part.

Actually does prepaired possitions do anything for ravenguard as they all already count as being in cover anyway?

Ice_can wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
RG tanks are big winners from the change. Prepared positions now makes your executioner -1 to hit with a 2+ save. That puts RG as perhaps the only chapter capable of fielding executioners worth taking - their glassiness is such a drawback to an otherwise good unit.

You may want to reread that chapter tactic as it's only -1 to hit in cover for infantry units, not sure what tanks your think have infantry keyword.

It's actually even more restrictive than that. Getting Cover doesn't give you the -1, you have to be physically on terrain, and be INFANTRY.

Prepared Positions in itself won't give anything -1 to hit, the units will still need to actually be on terrain.

Your totally correct, bad wording on my part.

Actually does prepaired possitions do anything for ravenguard as they all already count as being in cover anyway?

Only if the enemy get within 12" on turn 1. Which is niche enough you'll basically never use it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
-1 to hit also messed with rerolls, and makes plasma explode more frequently.

Well sometimes it messed with rerolls. They changed their mind so often on it, who knows. As for the Plasma Gets Hot - I'd argue that it doesn't. If a +1 can let you roll a 7, a -1 can let you roll a 0. So you GETS HOT on a natural 2, not a Natural 1 - though the one still misses.

Breton wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
-1 to hit also messed with rerolls, and makes plasma explode more frequently.

Well sometimes it messed with rerolls. They changed their mind so often on it, who knows. As for the Plasma Gets Hot - I'd argue that it doesn't. If a +1 can let you roll a 7, a -1 can let you roll a 0. So you GETS HOT on a natural 2, not a Natural 1 - though the one still misses.

GW's produced an FAQ that states a roll can never be modified to less than 1.

Breton wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
-1 to hit also messed with rerolls, and makes plasma explode more frequently.

Well sometimes it messed with rerolls. They changed their mind so often on it, who knows. As for the Plasma Gets Hot - I'd argue that it doesn't. If a +1 can let you roll a 7, a -1 can let you roll a 0. So you GETS HOT on a natural 2, not a Natural 1 - though the one still misses.

Sorry, but GW explicitly said a modifier can't reduce a roll to less than 1. It was a big deal because if you can get to a 1+ armor save it can't be modified (the wording is wonky) and Orks could actually do that right after the codex dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...snip...

But this is a good thing, it needed to be nerfed. Altaoic, stygies, and Alpha Legion need it too, but with the way GW does rules releases we're stuck with that for a bit longer. Now armies like IG, and to a degree orks won't feel like they shouldn't have bothered unpacking their armies in these matchups. These armies can deal with cover, they couldn't really deal with hit modifiers.

It might have been broken on Altaoic and Stygies, but against Marines it just made the first turn feel almost fair. At first. Until the Guard player figured out they just had to M3 on turn one so they could walk to inside 12" and FRFSRF all the marines off the table with the 150+ guys he still had left after a Marine list's first turn of shooting.

Breton wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
-1 to hit also messed with rerolls, and makes plasma explode more frequently.

Well sometimes it messed with rerolls. They changed their mind so often on it, who knows. As for the Plasma Gets Hot - I'd argue that it doesn't. If a +1 can let you roll a 7, a -1 can let you roll a 0. So you GETS HOT on a natural 2, not a Natural 1 - though the one still misses.

You're right on the re-rolls. In the new marine codex you can re-roll any dice, not just misses, with Chapter Masters and such. So that means you can re-roll a 3 if you have a 3+ BS with a -1. Which you couldn't do before with Marines.

Any roll modified below a 1 counts as a 1 though, so you are wrong there. If you overcharge plasma with a -1 it will explode on a 1 or 2. 2 becomes a 1, 1 becomes a 0 which is then counted as a 1.