Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
I would also like to see the Nemesis Warding Staff give the invulnerable save buff to the whole squad, so that there's a reason to take them.

Except then it's a mandatory upgrade.

+1 to Invul Save. If you don't have one, gain a 5++.

Bam, done. To those saying "what about characters", nobody cares if a Terminator Captain has a 3++.

Auto takes are common in all armies =) It's either an auto take or a never take. I tend to lean on involving some variety. If that means adding ONE auto take weapon to an army that needs buffs, I'm OK with that.

 _SeeD_ wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
I would also like to see the Nemesis Warding Staff give the invulnerable save buff to the whole squad, so that there's a reason to take them.

Except then it's a mandatory upgrade.

+1 to Invul Save. If you don't have one, gain a 5++.

Bam, done. To those saying "what about characters", nobody cares if a Terminator Captain has a 3++.

Auto takes are common in all armies =) It's either an auto take or a never take. I tend to lean on involving some variety. If that means adding ONE auto take weapon to an army that needs buffs, I'm OK with that.

That's not how it should be. At least under my proposal it isn't necessary but it's nice if you need to soak some higher AP weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
I would also like to see the Nemesis Warding Staff give the invulnerable save buff to the whole squad, so that there's a reason to take them.

Except then it's a mandatory upgrade.

+1 to Invul Save. If you don't have one, gain a 5++.

Bam, done. To those saying "what about characters", nobody cares if a Terminator Captain has a 3++.

Auto takes are common in all armies =) It's either an auto take or a never take. I tend to lean on involving some variety. If that means adding ONE auto take weapon to an army that needs buffs, I'm OK with that.

That's not how it should be. At least under my proposal it isn't necessary but it's nice if you need to soak some higher AP weapons.

Oh I see. I thought you were just repeating what it already does. In that case, I can see putting it on your Warlord to deny StW and keep your buffers alive. Otherwise not so useful when you're looking for DPS.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Also, why not just make Psybolt Ammunition another 1 CP stratagem?

It was indeed a very early suggestion, but in the end it was a distant 3rd place choice compared to 1. Default standard ammo upgrade (e.g. Thousands and Inferno bolts), 2. multiple-cast psychic power.

Also, with some more feedback and play-testing, I updated the rules in the OP with the changes described below.

- Included an additional 6 Sanctic Discipline powers (psychic combo time!).
- Psybolt ammo failure rate and penalty was a little too high. So, increased the success rate to a roll of a 3+ for units with 5 models or less.
- Reduced Storm Bolter Combat to Pistol 2 in melee (it's possible to buff them with the extra psychic now, so it evens out).
- Castellan Crowe was too strong. Reduced his melee MW output to unmodified 6 to wound rolls (still pretty good tho).
- Reduced the additional WC requirement for multiple casts to successful casts only (better scaling for games over 2K points).

Of particular note:




- So, any notable tactical combos with particular GK units and these new psychic powers?

- With these rules are Grey Knights finally ready to face down against the likes of mono-Iron Hands, Ultramarines w/ Guilliman, psychic Eldar, Thousand Sons w/ Magnus or Death Guard w/ Mortarion...?!

 Waking Dreamer wrote:



- So, any notable tactical combos with particular GK units and these new psychic powers?

I'm guessing Second Sight and Warp Shrouding can't be stacked more than once on one unit?

 _SeeD_ wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:



- So, any notable tactical combos with particular GK units and these new psychic powers?

I'm guessing Second Sight and Warp Shrouding can't be stacked more than once on one unit?

It wouldn't stack just like Sanctuary wouldn't stack with multiple casts.

But I'm thinking Might of Titan + Warp Shrouding + Second Sight would do wonders for say a GK Landraider. You would get an equivalent BS2+ T9 W16 2+/5+++(MW only) (-1 to hit for enemy shooting) landraider.

Can you imagine your 350 point vehicle model (plus embarked units), doesn't necessarily get blown up on the enemy's first turn of shooting...maybe. lol

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:



- So, any notable tactical combos with particular GK units and these new psychic powers?

I'm guessing Second Sight and Warp Shrouding can't be stacked more than once on one unit?

It wouldn't stack just like Sanctuary wouldn't stack with multiple casts.

But I'm thinking Might of Titan + Warp Shrouding + Second Sight would do wonders for say a GK Landraider. You would get an equivalent BS2+ T9 W16 2+/5+++(MW only) (-1 to hit for enemy shooting) landraider.

Can you imagine your 350 point vehicle model (plus embarked units), doesn't necessarily get blown up on the enemy's first turn of shooting...maybe. lol

Raiders getting blown up isn't their issue and anyone saying doesn't actually get it.

Their issue is that you can charge a single Raptor into the front of it, it somehow survives Overwatch (which isn't unreasonable), and suddenly you can't roll through a single model.

You can just use Gate of Infinity on the Landraider now that you have multicast potential. No problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GoI takes the landraider out of combat and ready for shooting in the same turn with no penalty.

Yea, the Crusader is pretty good a clearing chaff.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Yea, the Crusader is pretty good a clearing chaff.

The issue is that it almost never takes out its points worth of chaff. It was good before bolter discipline balance.

 skchsan wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Yea, the Crusader is pretty good a clearing chaff.

The issue is that it almost never takes out its points worth of chaff. It was good before bolter discipline balance.

Well you also need to consider how much points worth of enemy fire its taking in addition to how much it's killing. Every lascannon that's shooting the landraider is one that is not shooting your GMNDKs. T9 and -1 to hit should help with that. And while it lost bolter discipline, BS2+ buff should help again at killing, and pulling enemy shooting with its increased threat!

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Yea, the Crusader is pretty good a clearing chaff.

The issue is that it almost never takes out its points worth of chaff. It was good before bolter discipline balance.

Well you also need to consider how much points worth of enemy fire its taking in addition to how much it's killing. Every lascannon that's shooting the landraider is one that is not shooting your GMNDKs. T9 and -1 to hit should help with that. And while it lost bolter discipline, BS2+ buff should help again at killing, and pulling enemy shooting with its increased threat!

In theory thats true, but everyone knows to target GMND with their S5~7 AP-1~2 and not high S high AP's. LR's are simply too low on list of units that overload threat.

GMND >>> LRC in terms of threat and it gets taken out before the LRC.

 skchsan wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
The issue is that it almost never takes out its points worth of chaff. It was good before bolter discipline balance.

Well you also need to consider how much points worth of enemy fire its taking in addition to how much it's killing. Every lascannon that's shooting the landraider is one that is not shooting your GMNDKs. T9 and -1 to hit should help with that. And while it lost bolter discipline, BS2+ buff should help again at killing, and pulling enemy shooting with its increased threat!

In theory thats true, but everyone knows to target GMND with their S5~7 AP-1~2 and not high S high AP's. LR's are simply too low on list of units that overload threat.

GMND >>> LRC in terms of threat and it gets taken out before the LRC.

Well firstly you should activate Malcador's Providence (+1 to armor Save against shooting from more the 12" away), at the beginning of the battle round.

You could then put Sanctuary + Might of Titan + Warp Shrouding onto the GMNDK.

And then you can put / multi-cast Second Sight + Might of Titan + Warp Shrouding onto your Landraider (lascannon loadout is generally the most useful).

So in the same turn you have your:
1. GMNDK at T7 W12 2+/3++/5+++(MW only), +1 armour save (enemy shooting -1 to hit)
2. Landraider at BS2+ T9 W16 2+/5+++(MW only), (enemy shooting -1 to hit)

^ Both of your heavy-hitting vehicle units move forward with your GMNDK towards enemy lines while your landraider to a mid-field objective. In a mono-GK list, a Landraider shooting 4 lascannons a turn at BS2+ is something your opponent cant really ignore, unless they are willing to risk getting their own armour units getting blown up one-by-one.

This is not including having your GK Interceptors shunt forward right with your Strikes Squads (GoI), for rapid-fire range stormbolter shots themselves. With which, depending how good you roll in activating Psybolt ammo, could be upgraded to S5 AP-1. Which if you manage to strategically deepstrike about 20 of them within 12" is 80 shots.

So your opponent sees this in the same turn what are they going to shoot first?

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
The issue is that it almost never takes out its points worth of chaff. It was good before bolter discipline balance.

Well you also need to consider how much points worth of enemy fire its taking in addition to how much it's killing. Every lascannon that's shooting the landraider is one that is not shooting your GMNDKs. T9 and -1 to hit should help with that. And while it lost bolter discipline, BS2+ buff should help again at killing, and pulling enemy shooting with its increased threat!

In theory thats true, but everyone knows to target GMND with their S5~7 AP-1~2 and not high S high AP's. LR's are simply too low on list of units that overload threat.

GMND >>> LRC in terms of threat and it gets taken out before the LRC.

Well firstly you should activate Malcador's Providence (+1 to armor Save against shooting from more the 12" away), at the beginning of the battle round.

You could then put Sanctuary + Might of Titan + Warp Shrouding onto the GMNDK.

And then you can put / multi-cast Second Sight + Might of Titan + Warp Shrouding onto your Landraider (lascannon loadout is generally the most useful).

So in the same turn you have your:
1. GMNDK at T7 W12 2+/3++/5+++(MW only), +1 armour save (enemy shooting -1 to hit)
2. Landraider at BS2+ T9 W16 2+/5+++(MW only), (enemy shooting -1 to hit)

^ Both of your heavy-hitting vehicle units move forward with your GMNDK towards enemy lines while your landraider to a mid-field objective. In a mono-GK list, a Landraider shooting 4 lascannons a turn at BS2+ is something your opponent cant really ignore, unless they are willing to risk getting their own armour units getting blown up one-by-one.

This is not including having your GK Interceptors shunt forward right with your Strikes Squads (GoI), for rapid-fire range stormbolter shots themselves. With which, depending how good you roll in activating Psybolt ammo, could be upgraded to S5 AP-1. Which if you manage to strategically deepstrike about 20 of them within 12" is 80 shots.

So your opponent sees this in the same turn what are they going to shoot first?

Are you testing these rules in your own games?

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
So your opponent sees this in the same turn what are they going to shoot first?

Literally everything else in your army.

There's a limit to how much damage two of those models can cause. There are easy counters to "all eggs in one basket" wombocombos - deny them prime targets.

I feel like your first draft was much, much better. The current iteration is just a wishlist IMO.

 _SeeD_ wrote:

Are you testing these rules in your own games?

Of course. Lol The point of the rules was so that veteran GK players could excitedly play GKs again, even after 2 years of ineffectively stagnant rules.

The above scenario actually requires 8 psychic powers to be cast successfully in the same turn, and 4 psybolt activations. Statistically, your falling to activate around a third of it, not including DTW from your opponent. With that amount of psychic powers attempted, statistically you are expecting about 1-2 perils as well. With the infantry, the idea is solid but obviously you need to account for terrain and objectives too. You could send 20 of your Powered Armour in front of the enemy lines to clear the screens (though half of them would die in the next turn from enemy return fire at least), or split them to hold and defend objectives. It's all in the cards you get.

It's never ALL happened in a game, but bits of the game-plan do. And as a player you need to adapt to which parts of that game-plan would be most beneficial for you at the time and if its worth investing in (eg. CP re-roll to stop perils, or to successfully cast that one psychic power etc.). I presented the scenario above to highlight how the different rules could be implemented to improve our current units and their battle roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
So your opponent sees this in the same turn what are they going to shoot first?

Literally everything else in your army.

There's a limit to how much damage two of those models can cause. There are easy counters to "all eggs in one basket" wombocombos - deny them prime targets.

I feel like your first draft was much, much better. The current iteration is just a wishlist IMO.

I get that. So, it's not that different to TSons or Death Guard who routinely buff their Primarchs with +1 Invul. saves/+1 Toughness/-1 to hit in shooting AND melee, and then march them right up the board with official GW rules...

How so? The main difference is the addition of 6 psychic powers (suggested by the very first reply here and repeatedly), 2 of which only work on Daemon units, so more like 4 extra psychic power in most situations...AND the nerfing of T1 deepstrike (to select units only and outside the enemy's deployment zone), again a concern repeatedly suggested in this thread. These current changes were first brought up by people other than myself.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest writing emails to the development staff at GW with condensed batreps attached. I'm trying to be a realist, so maybe, just maybe, the next codex will have some consideration in it.

As a Knight commander from their major introduction back in the golden era, third edition.

I've seen the choice to field an elite, but small force turn from being competitive to being utter fodder. The reason for that is the abolishing of the bespoke rules that make the Astartes of the Ordo Malleus such a unique force amongst Space Marines. Rules such as The Shrouding, The Aegis, extensive use of Deep Striking, being a faction of warrior monks with actual, usable powers.

Also, what the hell is with their stats? Average leadership? THE most elite of all Astartes? It makes no sense and makes them one of the worse armies to field. I remember when five Knight Terminators would stand face to face with a horde of Orks and just put up a stonking fight. But now, the average silver marines just seem so lacklustre.

Hell, this is the ultra, super secret forces of Titan, with access to THE best equipment the Imperium can muster, the finest storm bolters, ammunition most Astartes don't even get to touch, the absolute finest suits of Power Armour in existence, Strike Cruisers that are more advanced than ANY of the ships other Astartes chapters have access to. What happened to the ultra elite? Might as well just use standard Space Marines, no less effective, but a ton cheaper in points and cash investment.

Gary_1986 wrote:
As a Knight commander from their major introduction back in the golden era, third edition.

I've seen the choice to field an elite, but small force turn from being competitive to being utter fodder. The reason for that is the abolishing of the bespoke rules that make the Astartes of the Ordo Malleus such a unique force amongst Space Marines. Rules such as The Shrouding, The Aegis, extensive use of Deep Striking, being a faction of warrior monks with actual, usable powers.

Also, what the hell is with their stats? Average leadership? THE most elite of all Astartes? It makes no sense and makes them one of the worse armies to field. I remember when five Knight Terminators would stand face to face with a horde of Orks and just put up a stonking fight. But now, the average silver marines just seem so lacklustre.

Hell, this is the ultra, super secret forces of Titan, with access to THE best equipment the Imperium can muster, the finest storm bolters, ammunition most Astartes don't even get to touch, the absolute finest suits of Power Armour in existence, Strike Cruisers that are more advanced than ANY of the ships other Astartes chapters have access to. What happened to the ultra elite? Might as well just use standard Space Marines, no less effective, but a ton cheaper in points and cash investment.

Yea. As the Joker puts it, "It's a big joke". I'm not sure why they didn't get the same love the Custodes got. According the lore, a grey knight is to an astartes what an astartes is to a normal human.

 _SeeD_ wrote:

Gary_1986 wrote:
As a Knight commander from their major introduction back in the golden era, third edition.

I've seen the choice to field an elite, but small force turn from being competitive to being utter fodder. The reason for that is the abolishing of the bespoke rules that make the Astartes of the Ordo Malleus such a unique force amongst Space Marines. Rules such as The Shrouding, The Aegis, extensive use of Deep Striking, being a faction of warrior monks with actual, usable powers.

Also, what the hell is with their stats? Average leadership? THE most elite of all Astartes? It makes no sense and makes them one of the worse armies to field. I remember when five Knight Terminators would stand face to face with a horde of Orks and just put up a stonking fight. But now, the average silver marines just seem so lacklustre.

Hell, this is the ultra, super secret forces of Titan, with access to THE best equipment the Imperium can muster, the finest storm bolters, ammunition most Astartes don't even get to touch, the absolute finest suits of Power Armour in existence, Strike Cruisers that are more advanced than ANY of the ships other Astartes chapters have access to. What happened to the ultra elite? Might as well just use standard Space Marines, no less effective, but a ton cheaper in points and cash investment.

Yea. As the Joker puts it, "It's a big joke". I'm not sure why they didn't get the same love the Custodes got. According the lore, a grey knight is to an astartes what an astartes is to a normal human.

Yup that sums it up. The Grey Knights have some of the best, most compelling fluff in the entire Imperial force. But on the tabletop they just feel like normal, standard marines who've spray painted their armour silver and decided to hike up their point cost. I'm irritated Games Workshop have done their damned best to stamp down on variation, for the sake of making the rules a 'bit' easier to follow / learn.

Back in their introduction in third edition, the Grey Knights were one of the best, but smallest Space Marine forces around. But their unique, one of a kind rules made up for their paltry numbers. It was their rule set that acted as their force multiplier, making them actually worth their point cost. A Grey Knight used to be somewhere in the region of 50% more expensive, Marine to Marine vs. regular Astartes, but for that we got the Shrouding (one of the most unique rules in third edition), Nemesis Force Weapons which made them THE most lethal force vs. multi-wound Daemons. I had a Justicar for example kill an Daemonprince in hand to hand combat, for example. But that's good, they're supposed to be the bane of all things Chaos!

Gary_1986 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:

Gary_1986 wrote:
As a Knight commander from their major introduction back in the golden era, third edition.

I've seen the choice to field an elite, but small force turn from being competitive to being utter fodder. The reason for that is the abolishing of the bespoke rules that make the Astartes of the Ordo Malleus such a unique force amongst Space Marines. Rules such as The Shrouding, The Aegis, extensive use of Deep Striking, being a faction of warrior monks with actual, usable powers.

Also, what the hell is with their stats? Average leadership? THE most elite of all Astartes? It makes no sense and makes them one of the worse armies to field. I remember when five Knight Terminators would stand face to face with a horde of Orks and just put up a stonking fight. But now, the average silver marines just seem so lacklustre.

Hell, this is the ultra, super secret forces of Titan, with access to THE best equipment the Imperium can muster, the finest storm bolters, ammunition most Astartes don't even get to touch, the absolute finest suits of Power Armour in existence, Strike Cruisers that are more advanced than ANY of the ships other Astartes chapters have access to. What happened to the ultra elite? Might as well just use standard Space Marines, no less effective, but a ton cheaper in points and cash investment.

Yea. As the Joker puts it, "It's a big joke". I'm not sure why they didn't get the same love the Custodes got. According the lore, a grey knight is to an astartes what an astartes is to a normal human.

Yup that sums it up. The Grey Knights have some of the best, most compelling fluff in the entire Imperial force. But on the tabletop they just feel like normal, standard marines who've spray painted their armour silver and decided to hike up their point cost. I'm irritated Games Workshop have done their damned best to stamp down on variation, for the sake of making the rules a 'bit' easier to follow / learn.

Back in their introduction in third edition, the Grey Knights were one of the best, but smallest Space Marine forces around. But their unique, one of a kind rules made up for their paltry numbers. It was their rule set that acted as their force multiplier, making them actually worth their point cost. A Grey Knight used to be somewhere in the region of 50% more expensive, Marine to Marine vs. regular Astartes, but for that we got the Shrouding (one of the most unique rules in third edition), Nemesis Force Weapons which made them THE most lethal force vs. multi-wound Daemons. I had a Justicar for example kill an Daemonprince in hand to hand combat, for example. But that's good, they're supposed to be the bane of all things Chaos!

Look at it this way: Psychic Awakening is a great opportunity to make GK a special force. At the top of my list is the ability listed in the OP, saying that GK can cast the same spell more than once, but at a +1 warp charge.

Haven't had a look through the psychic awakening as of this moment, might well give it a look.

Why as the absolute pinnacle of Astartes chapters, tasked with protecting the Imperium from the horrors of the Warp. How do the Grey Knights get nothing much of note? Psybolt Ammunition for example would be a fantastic piece of standard kit for Grey Knights. They're all psykers, they all fight Daemons, their fortress is on Titan, close to the greatest Forge World in the Imperium, Mars. Why does it not make sense for them not to have psybolt ammunition as standard issue, kinda in the manner Deathwatch have access to Kraken, Hellfire, etc. Right now Deathwatch are a much better force than Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why as the absolute pinnacle of Astartes chapters, tasked with protecting the Imperium from the horrors of the Warp. How do the Grey Knights get nothing much of note? Psybolt Ammunition for example would be a fantastic piece of standard kit for Grey Knights. They're all psykers, they all fight Daemons, their fortress is on Titan, close to the greatest Forge World in the Imperium, Mars. Why does it not make sense for them not to have psybolt ammunition as standard issue, kinda in the manner Deathwatch have access to Kraken, Hellfire, etc. Right now Deathwatch are a much better force than Grey Knights.

So, I had first Eighth Edition game this afternoon.

GREY KNIGHTS vs. Necrons.

Thanks to Chapter Approved I could field a much better force than I expected, so what did I take from the game?

Knights are fantastic in Close Combat, their Nemesis weapons are beasts vs. multiple wound models and in Close Combat vs. regular Necrons it was no contest.

Shooting, Knights are accurate and the amount of Storm Bolter fire that can be laid down is stunning, thanks to Bolter Discipline, I mean I was putting out an obscene amount of fire from Terminator squad once said squad Deep Strike onto the field, their strength is whittling fire then a brutal Close Combat attack.

PSYCHIC attacks are something Knights are rather good at too, so, when factoring these abilities in with overall how the force handed I don't think Knights are as far off as I thought.

I didn't suffer vs. Immortals as much as I thought, and since the point costs are a lot more reasonable I was able to field a pair of Razorbacks which earned their keep twice over. Lascannons did wonders vs. DESTROYERS. Didn't help that his dice rolls were poor and mine weren't mind, so I made armour saves more than not which meant in the end it was a comfortable win for the Knights.

There's still a few things I reckon could make them more competitive, and consistent.

I'd still argue PSYBOLT rounds should be a piece of kit that can be taken in a widespread fashion.

I think there's still room for a 'Shrouding' rule of some kind, not sure how I'd approach that mind but would be nice to have.

I would argue in favour of a slight bump to overall Leadership, given their premium vs. standard Marines, and ultra elite nature.

I'd love to see their PSYCHIC power manifested in Close Combat, perhaps in the form of some sort of bespoke rule, perhaps we could name it 'Blinding' or something along those lines, or even incorporate it into a 'Shrouding' rule.

But all in all, it flowed well, a lot less rule checking and it was smooth. Like I said the Knights faired a LOT better than I anticipated. Perhaps there is hope for them after all, which given how striking a Knight force is on the table, is good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, he agreed to another game sometime using the custom rules proposed by Walking Dreamer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, might I add, Sanctuary worked really, really well on my Terminators, 2+ with 4+ invulnerable save was useful, there was a couple times I got a 4 instead of a 5 when I needed the Crux Terminatus save, and survived thanks to that power.

Gary_1986 wrote:
There's still a few things I reckon could make them more competitive, and consistent.

That's what these Amendment rules are all about.

Gary_1986 wrote:
I'd still argue PSYBOLT rounds should be a piece of kit that can be taken in a widespread fashion.

Tryout the new Rites of Consecration rule. All GK infantry come with it, and you can potentially activate it on multiple shooting units per turn without CP cost. It can still work super effectively with Bolter discipline, but you just need to strategically employ it instead of casting a psychic power.

Gary_1986 wrote:
I think there's still room for a 'Shrouding' rule of some kind, not sure how I'd approach that mind but would be nice to have.

Try the new Warp Shrouding psychic power. I've found it particularly useful for our GK vehicles like the GMNDK. It's helped deny the opponent First Strike and Slay the WL, when they get first turn and aim everything at your GMNDK during their first shooting phase.

Gary_1986 wrote:
I'd love to see their PSYCHIC power manifested in Close Combat, perhaps in the form of some sort of bespoke rule, perhaps we could name it 'Blinding' or something along those lines, or even incorporate it into a 'Shrouding' rule.

What I've found is, with a combination of the psychic powers, Might of Titan, and Second Sight you can buff our GK Terminators/Paladins to Custodes levels of Combat and toughness. If you pull off that psychic combo, virtually every deficiency people have listed for GW's official Terminator rules/profile gets remedied!

Gary_1986 wrote:
But all in all, it flowed well, a lot less rule checking and it was smooth. Like I said the Knights faired a LOT better than I anticipated. Perhaps there is hope for them after all, which given how striking a Knight force is on the table, is good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
Also, might I add, Sanctuary worked really, really well on my Terminators, 2+ with 4+ invulnerable save was useful, there was a couple times I got a 4 instead of a 5 when I needed the Crux Terminatus save, and survived thanks to that power.

With The Incorruptible rule, you have the chance to buff up all your Terminators and Paladins to a 2+/4++. That, with their recent points drops might make them more competitively worth it, compared to our much cheaper Strikes Squads now.

Gary_1986 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, he agreed to another game sometime using the custom rules proposed by Walking Dreamer.

Much appreciated! It would be good to get performance feedback from other player/meta groups.

So, had second game with Knights, using the House Rules vs. a rather orthodox Tau Empire force, so no Riptide Spam. VP win for Knights but no walk-over.

Warp Shrouding is good, I think it should be a default, passive power to be honest.

Malcador's Providence was rather useful at the point I used it.

Rites of Consecration was alright, I still support Knights being issued with PSYBOLT ammunition as standard without requiring this mind, I don't think it would overpower them though it might result in them being a little on the cheap side.

PSYCHIC ONSLAUGHT with Purgation Squad was a decent combination, the AP bump more than the Strength bump though, against Tau those guns are wounding on 3+ as it is. PYROKINESIS was rather effective with Incinerators too on a second Purgation squad, the extra range helps a lot.

Second Sight is also effective, resulting in a to hill roll of 2+.

Think more emphasis needs to be put on the Knights mental abilities, it is their greatest strength and what the Chapter was founded for, to fight the battles no one else could. But these House Rules in this little engagement give me hope that the upcoming PA book might make some big differences.

Gary_1986 wrote:
So, had second game with Knights, using the House Rules vs. a rather orthodox Tau Empire force, so no Riptide Spam. VP win for Knights but no walk-over.

Warp Shrouding is good, I think it should be a default, passive power to be honest.

Malcador's Providence was rather useful at the point I used it.

Rites of Consecration was alright, I still support Knights being issued with PSYBOLT ammunition as standard without requiring this mind, I don't think it would overpower them though it might result in them being a little on the cheap side.

PSYCHIC ONSLAUGHT with Purgation Squad was a decent combination, the AP bump more than the Strength bump though, against Tau those guns are wounding on 3+ as it is. PYROKINESIS was rather effective with Incinerators too on a second Purgation squad, the extra range helps a lot.

Second Sight is also effective, resulting in a to hill roll of 2+.

Think more emphasis needs to be put on the Knights mental abilities, it is their greatest strength and what the Chapter was founded for, to fight the battles no one else could. But these House Rules in this little engagement give me hope that the upcoming PA book might make some big differences.

Nicely done mate! Always good to see results in games different to my own local meta. Even non-Win-at-all-costs Tau armies from experienced players is really tough for mono GK to overcome.

It's also encouraging to see that these House Rules arent OP some people have thought, but still have the synergy and usefulness to make an almost guaranteed loosing match up into a hard fought victory (the ultimate goal for the House Rules).

Do you recall roughly the army list of the Tau? You said an orthodox Tau list so maybe only 1 Riptide and a couple of Broadsides for example?

And to think a Purgation Squad equipped with Incinerators doing some actual work? Again, some nice feedback details here!

There was no Riptide Battlesuit at all, his force is from when he started collecting back when Tau first appeared on the scene so not much has been added to it. He has the old school XV88 models, which I prefer if I'm honest. Newest addition to his force is XV25 Stealth Teams. He did however field an entire XV88 team, which Terminators dealt with in Close Combat thanks to our friend Deep Strike.