Redemption of traitor Primarchs

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**Vojcek**

I finished reading Konrad Curze primarch book and I must say it includes some interesting bits of lore (heavy SPOILERS from the book following).

A sense of pressure building before a storm pressed the air in the room to an uncomfortable thickness. From out of this rolled a thunder of words that Curze had yearned for, yet in the last sane pockets of his mind had never expected.
+You are not weak, my son.+
The voice drove Curze to his knees with its power. His head rang withsudden, white pain. A roaring hurricane of might blasted from the figure, now surrounded with actinic light, tossing the remains of his last victims around, and burning out the wall, exposing Curze to the light of the hateful stars.
‘Father?’ he said. His voice was fractured, small, a child’s voice. Pitiful.
+I am beyond your accusations. Beyond speech. Beyond anything. Why do you think that I speak? Your madness is finally complete.+
Again the words rang Curze’s skull with the force of a clapper striking a bell. Still he managed to grin and raise his head to stare at the meat-thing’s glory, though he was forced to squint against the blazing light.
‘No, no! You are here. I hear you. You have come to face my judgement, drawn by this offering I have made. You ever were a bloody god.’
+I am no god, nor shall ever be.+
Curze got back up, his feathered cloak whipping in the psychic gale, his book clutched protectively to his chest.
‘You are here. You understand your guilt. You have come to face my judgement.’
+You cannot condemn me. I am punished enough.+
‘There is not enough punishment for what you have done! Not in this life, or in the next,’ shouted Curze.
+How dare you presume to understand what I have done, and what sacrifices I have made, and what I now must suffer?+ The force of the voice battered Curze back. +You will never know the depths of my pain, for which I am grateful.+
Curze opened his eyes to peer sidelong at the figure. ‘Why such hollow words?’
The voice took a moment before it returned, again with thunderous force that made Curze howl.
+No father wishes his sons to suffer, no matter what burdens he is forced to place upon them.+
Curze laughed. ‘An apology? What next, you will forgive me? Sanguinius warned me you might,’ he scoffed.
+There was never anything to forgive. You acted as you were made to, but my plan was interfered with. Your insanity was not your fault, nor was it mine.+
Curze snarled like an animal.
‘Lies! Everything was as you intended!’
+There is nothing you have done wrong. If only you and I could have met one more time, I could have shown you back to the light.+
‘How marvellous!’ Curze fell into a minute of wild, howling laughter. ‘I am the Night Haunter! Light is anathema to me!’
+Light is within you all. You are my sons. You are born of light. None of you are beyond redemption.+
‘Tell that to those who died.’
+Nothing ever dies. Death is a state of transition. You have my forgiveness, Konrad, whether you want it or not.+
‘Never!’
The voice in his head would not relent, but pounded mercilessly on. Moremasonry fell from the outside wall. The floor collapsed behind him, frittering into its constituent atoms.
+You made but one mistake, my son. From it, all the evil you have perpetrated springs. You chose to believe in immutable fate. Without choice, there is nothing. These gods that taunt us rely upon choice. The functioning of this universe depends upon choice. A single fate is one book in a library of illimitable futures. You read only one. Do you not see that you chose this? You chose to be fate’s prisoner. Had you believed in your own agency, none of this would have come to pass. You made this happen. You chose to be the way you are, trapped, manipulated. Insane.+
Curze’s smile froze, seeming to become detached from the face that wore it, hovering menacingly about his lips as a thing unique to itself, before it collapsed with all the violence of a dying star, and his mouth became a screaming hole.
‘No! You sent the Assassins to kill me. You want me dead!’
+You determined what fate you trod. Your belief, my son, is nothing but an excuse for your own failings.+
‘No!’
Wailing, Curze threw aside his book and hurled himself into the dreadful light, though it burned his eyes, and beat at the effigy, rending and tearing at it with his broken black nails, peeling long curls of frozen flesh from the stitched carcasses, ripping it to bloody shreds.
The light went out.
Shaking, sobbing, he collapsed to the floor. The last remnants of his sculpture rolled wetly from the throne.
‘I cannot be forgiven,’ he whispered. Tears coursed down his face, dripping from his nose and chin, insufficient in their profusion to dilute the blood spilled upon the floor. ‘After all I have done, where would be the justice in that? I had no choice! I had no choice!’
The pressure dissipated. Curze hunched down to the floor and wrapped his arms around the ruin of his substitute father. Frozen in a half embrace, he waited for a voice that he would never hear again.

The thing I wanna talk about happend about halfway in the extract but I wanted to post it whole as it is quite interesting in my opinion. Emperor states to Curze that NONE of the primarchs is beyond redemption. This is curious because this conversation happens more than two decades after failed siege of Terra when (nearly?) all traitor primarchs ascended to demonhood. Yet, Emperor still claims that they are not yet beyond redemption. Also, he states that it does not matter that some of them are dead already because "Nothing ever dies. Death is a state of transition". This would seem to agree with Dante's vision of Sanguinius after battle of Baal which seemed like more than just a hallucination.
Of course, Curze was crazy at this point so one can omit this as his hallucination. On the other hand, even being crazy Curze did not have any hallucinations otherwise, just visions of what will or could happen. Also, Emperor told him that he is suffering quite much at this point of time (on Golden Throne) which Curze could not have any information about, so this also points to the fact that the conversation was real. What do you think?

**Ishagu**

During the Heresy it was possible, certainly in the case of Perturabo.

Once they became Daemons they were beyond redemption.

It's possible Alpharius/Omegon is still alive, but at this point he has likely been corrupted. Also you could literally never believe anything he says...

**pm713**

I think it depends on your perspective. From a normal perspective they are beyond redemption because as people they can't make up for the various immoral things they've done.

From the Emperor's perspective they can be redeemed because they are just tools to him. If they used what will they had left to just smash themselves against other Chaos forces in the most bloody way possible he'd find that a win IMO.

**Ishagu**

The traitor that have ascended to Daemons literally have no free will. They exist as aspects of the Chaos Gods now

**pm713**

Ishagu wrote:
The traitor that have ascended to Daemons literally have no free will. They exist as aspects of the Chaos Gods now

They're demon princes so retain some mortality and should have some free will left at least. They're just full on fanatics so that free will is effectively the same as the demon part.

**Ishagu**

The Chaos Gods can literally think them out of existence. Their "Free Will" exists only as long as they follow the greater goal of their patron God.

Unfortunately they gave up their souls to the ruinous powers. In effect they are more enslaved than they ever would have or could have been under the Emperor's rule.

**pm713**

They can technically do that to almost anybody.

I feel a bit like you didn't actually listen to the bit I said about Demon Princes being part mortal and therefore part free still.

**Tibs Ironblood**

pm713 wrote:
They can technically do that to almost anybody.

I feel a bit like you didn't actually listen to the bit I said about Demon Princes being part mortal and therefore part free still.

Pretty sure a demon prince isn't mortal anymore. They've transcended that phase into something altogether different by selling their souls to chaos. They're bound to their god's will and can not have that changed as far as established lore goes. Now in the future maybe the Emperor with all of his power manages to do something plot heavy and seize control of them or something with his god like powers, but it would be a stretch.

**pm713**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
pm713 wrote:
They can technically do that to almost anybody.

I feel a bit like you didn't actually listen to the bit I said about Demon Princes being part mortal and therefore part free still.

Pretty sure a demon prince isn't mortal anymore. They've transcended that phase into something altogether different by selling their souls to chaos. They're bound to their god's will and can not have that changed as far as established lore goes. Now in the future maybe the Emperor with all of his power manages to do something plot heavy and seize control of them or something with his god like powers, but it would be a stretch.

IIRC they are a little mortal still and that's why other demons look down on them.

**jhe90**

Ishagu wrote:
During the Heresy it was possible, certainly in the case of Perturabo.

Once they became Daemons they were beyond redemption.

It's possible Alpharius/Omegon is still alive, but at this point he has likely been corrupted. Also you could literally never believe anything he says...

Least one was confirmed Kia by Dorn. Which one unknown. Granted they had a bunch of tricks with primarch blood etc. This is the sneaky legion of sneak champions and masters. This one was during battle of Pluto earlier in heresry inq sneak attack on Sol system repulsed by impiral fists under pollox, Sigmound and Dorn.

Guliman claimed one kill I believe, or another loyalist. Granted they might have made fakes who knows. The aloha legion is basically a engihma wrapped in a puzzle.

Pre going full deamon prince.

Maybe. Difficult. But maybe possible.

After. No chance.
There very entity and being is chaos. I doubt chaos coded in the ability to go against chaos and defect.

They crossed the Rubicon when they shed there physical mortal forms. There is no going back. I doubt even the full power emperor could break the chaos god's hold on them even if he wanted to. There the chaos god's senior champions and commanders. No mere deamon prince there more between prince and greater catagory.

The Rubicon was crossed 10,000 years ago.

**Formosa**

sorry but plague war shows that deamon primarchs do have free will but the consequences of ignoring the god in question are bad, nurgle tells mortarion to do a job, mortarion says no and is coerced into doing it, thats free will right there otherwise Nurgle would just compel his puppet to do as he wants.

Greater deamons also appear to have some level of free will too.

**pm713**

jhe90 wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
During the Heresy it was possible, certainly in the case of Perturabo.

Once they became Daemons they were beyond redemption.

It's possible Alpharius/Omegon is still alive, but at this point he has likely been corrupted. Also you could literally never believe anything he says...

Guliman claimed one kill I believe, or another loyalist. Granted they might have made fakes who knows. The aloha legion is basically a engihma wrapped in a puzzle.

Plot twist: Guilliman died and the whole time its been Alpharius/Omegon having a giant last laugh.

**HoundsofDemos**

The minute you make the jump to demon prince your stuck on your path. Even if any of the demon primarchs wanted to change, they gods have hooks in them so deep that it isn't happening.

While I personally interpret that they probably have the most autonomy of any of the ruinous powers servants, they are ultimately just that servants. At the end of the day their very nature and world view was warped and corrupted by the power they took.

**Pandion40**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The minute you make the jump to demon prince your stuck on your path. Even if any of the demon primarchs wanted to change, they gods have hooks in them so deep that it isn't happening.

While I personally interpret that they probably have the most autonomy of any of the ruinous powers servants, they are ultimately just that servants. At the end of the day their very nature and world view was warped and corrupted by the power they took.

This sums it up for me, Chaos isn’t just telling Deamon Primarchs what to do it’s corrupted their very nature. It isn’t telling them what to think it’s changed how they think. Breaking a Primarch free of that kind of slavery isn’t going to be easy and the Deamon Primarch isn’t doing it alone, it’s going to take a massive effort in universe and masterful writing out of universe to convincingly pull it off.

**Galef**

I've always gotten the impression that:
A) DPs are no longer mortal in any shape or form, but other "true" Daemons can still smell the taint of mortality on them. That was the original reasoning behind DPs being HQ for Space Marines, yet Heavy Support for Daemons lead by a Greater Daemon. The GD "outranks" the DP in the eyes of lesser Daemons

and B) Since they are imbued with the power of their Patron god, their soul belongs to that god. Any "free will" they may exhibit is an illusion. This is especially true for Tzeentch DPs as Tzeentch directs them to do things that SEEM contrary to Tzeentch's will, but eventually (sometimes millennia later) it all works out "Just as Planned"

The best example of this "illusion of free will" IMO is the lore for Be'lakor: the first DP and granted power from all 4 Runious powers.
Be'lakor would often go against a particular god's will, but in the end that always served the opposite god. If he went against Nurgle, it benefited Tzeentch or piss off Khorne to the delight of Slaanesh, etc
That's the whole reason no other DP since has been imbued with more than 1 god's power. They want FULL control over them.

So if redemption is possible, it will have to involve Big-E stealing back the soul of the Primarch in question. I could see this happen for several of them considering most were either tricked, seduced or otherwise had no choice but to turn to Chaos.

-

**Nurglitch**

The Primarchs were made using the power of Chaos, if Ingethel the Ascended is to be believed (and with such an honest, open face who wouldn't believe her...) It's possibly what caused the Heresy to go so pear-shaped.

**pm713**

Nurglitch wrote:
The Primarchs were made using the power of Chaos, if Ingethel the Ascended is to be believed (and with such an honest, open face who wouldn't believe her...) It's possibly what caused the Heresy to go so pear-shaped.

No, that was just bad parenting.

**endlesswaltz123**

In regards to the daemon primarchs.

Spoilers for the deathwatch novels below.

Something really interesting happens in the deathwatch novel shadowbreaker. A character within it which I will not name to avoid spoilers effectively gets possessed and mutates, his soul is at one point taken by chaos of sorts.

That same character finds their way back and unmutates due to another character banishing the daemon from the first characters body and manages in the process with the help and will of the original characters soul fighting in the warp. Now the really interesting part is that the original character un-mutates.

The characters body reverts back to its original form. Just like the gal vorbak in some way. This has always been one of the biggest hurdles to bringing back the daemon primarchs back.

It seems it is now canon in some regards that when your exorcise a daemon entity you can also reverse the mutation.

Again this is in part supported during dark imperium when the TS marines revert back to their original bodies from dust.

**jhe90**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
In regards to the daemon primarchs.

Spoilers for the deathwatch novels below.

Something really interesting happens in the deathwatch novel shadowbreaker. A character within it which I will not name to avoid spoilers effectively gets possessed and mutates, his soul is at one point taken by chaos of sorts.

That same character finds their way back and unmutates due to another character banishing the daemon from the first characters body and manages in the process with the help and will of the original characters soul fighting in the warp. Now the really interesting part is that the original character un-mutates.

The characters body reverts back to its original form. Just like the gal vorbak in some way. This has always been one of the biggest hurdles to bringing back the daemon primarchs back.

It seems it is now canon in some regards that when your exorcise a daemon entity you can also reverse the mutation.

Again this is in part supported during dark imperium when the TS marines revert back to their original bodies from dust.

There is one problem though.

Bodies...the deamon primarchs souls even of the Big E could drag one back. Bodies...there not just poessed, thee bodies have long been consumed.

You need somewhere to put said soul and I doubt a human or marine body quite cut it. So it's getting a new acme primarch kit and the Big E making a body to take said recaptured soul.

Unless he has some odd force ghost floating about lol.

The other question. How would chaos react to the big E stealing such a powerful and valuable soul off then. Doubt they would be hqppy!

And we'll there traitors for a reason. They where traitors before they turned into chaotic deamon entities.
There Low on redeemable qualities.

**endlesswaltz123**

jhe90 wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
In regards to the daemon primarchs.

Spoilers for the deathwatch novels below.

Something really interesting happens in the deathwatch novel shadowbreaker. A character within it which I will not name to avoid spoilers effectively gets possessed and mutates, his soul is at one point taken by chaos of sorts.

That same character finds their way back and unmutates due to another character banishing the daemon from the first characters body and manages in the process with the help and will of the original characters soul fighting in the warp. Now the really interesting part is that the original character un-mutates.

The characters body reverts back to its original form. Just like the gal vorbak in some way. This has always been one of the biggest hurdles to bringing back the daemon primarchs back.

It seems it is now canon in some regards that when your exorcise a daemon entity you can also reverse the mutation.

Again this is in part supported during dark imperium when the TS marines revert back to their original bodies from dust.

There is one problem though.

Bodies...the deamon primarchs souls even of the Big E could drag one back. Bodies...there not just poessed, thee bodies have long been consumed.

You need somewhere to put said soul and I doubt a human or marine body quite cut it. So it's getting a new acme primarch kit and the Big E making a body to take said recaptured soul.

Unless he has some odd force ghost floating about lol.

The other question. How would chaos react to the big E stealing such a powerful and valuable soul off then. Doubt they would be hqppy!

And we'll there traitors for a reason. They where traitors before they turned into chaotic deamon entities.
There Low on redeemable qualities.

Whilst I admit, in certain situations such as Fulgrim where his body seemed to literally shed, it potentially is tricky. However the fluff now states that to a certain extent it is reversible, the character in shadow breakers body was unrecognisable, even the armour was starting to contort and warp, yet it reversed... So whilst the body may seem to have been destroyed, that is not the same as it for definite being destroyed.

**jhe90**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
jhe90 wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
In regards to the daemon primarchs.

Spoilers for the deathwatch novels below.

Something really interesting happens in the deathwatch novel shadowbreaker. A character within it which I will not name to avoid spoilers effectively gets possessed and mutates, his soul is at one point taken by chaos of sorts.

That same character finds their way back and unmutates due to another character banishing the daemon from the first characters body and manages in the process with the help and will of the original characters soul fighting in the warp. Now the really interesting part is that the original character un-mutates.

The characters body reverts back to its original form. Just like the gal vorbak in some way. This has always been one of the biggest hurdles to bringing back the daemon primarchs back.

It seems it is now canon in some regards that when your exorcise a daemon entity you can also reverse the mutation.

Again this is in part supported during dark imperium when the TS marines revert back to their original bodies from dust.

There is one problem though.

Bodies...the deamon primarchs souls even of the Big E could drag one back. Bodies...there not just poessed, thee bodies have long been consumed.

You need somewhere to put said soul and I doubt a human or marine body quite cut it. So it's getting a new acme primarch kit and the Big E making a body to take said recaptured soul.

Unless he has some odd force ghost floating about lol.

The other question. How would chaos react to the big E stealing such a powerful and valuable soul off then. Doubt they would be hqppy!

And we'll there traitors for a reason. They where traitors before they turned into chaotic deamon entities.
There Low on redeemable qualities.

Whilst I admit, in certain situations such as Fulgrim where his body seemed to literally shed, it potentially is tricky. However the fluff now states that to a certain extent it is reversible, the character in shadow breakers body was unrecognisable, even the armour was starting to contort and warp, yet it reversed... So whilst the body may seem to have been destroyed, that is not the same as it for definite being destroyed.

But the original physical form remained. Or a physical form to revert close enough. Maybe they could revert, primarch souls are extremely powerful, and there definitely different.

Add the big E and primqrchs, yeah normal rules tend not to apply.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
The Primarchs were made using the power of Chaos, if Ingethel the Ascended is to be believed (and with such an honest, open face who wouldn't believe her...) It's possibly what caused the Heresy to go so pear-shaped.

No, that was just bad parenting.

Maybe the emperor is the chaos god of bad parenting?

... come to think of it that'd explain a lot

**Longstrider**

Also, I think it's an overextension to imagine that the gods themselves have freedom of the will. I don't think Khorne could choose not to be angry all the time - and in the Core book for AoS 2, it's mention that it's in the very nature of Tzeentch to scheme, such that he can't help but meddle in his own plans if nothing else happens.

But, presumably, there must be some reason they want mortals to give them their souls - there's got to be something compelling (if not powerful) to it; otherwise why both with that at all instead of just generating more greater daemons. So perhaps it is that last little fragment of (at least, seeming) independence.

**BrianDavion**

it actually adds to the grimdark if chaos interacts with mortality specificly to be able to gain a degree of independance from choice followers, but by absording those followers they taint the very thing they wanted