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Hey Dakka,

I am working on my O&G list and want to include a unit of 12-16 trolls. I want them to reach their target and not stop to smell the flowers. I also don't want to park the general next to them the whole game. I was thinking of putting an Orc Bigboss on a boar with them, maybe with the Crown of Command.

I have played fantasy for a long time but not much O&G. We are currently playing 8th ed. Has anyone had any luck with this tactic or any other good ideas for a troll delivery system?

If I remember correctly, the problem with an Orc Big Boss on boar was the different base size, so he could be picked out in ranged combat.

I haven't played 8th since 2014, and I never sent a Character model accompanying them during 8th, but maybe a Goblin Big Boss or Waagh Boss on Gigantula would have the fitting base size so he can't be targeted? I just do not know if it is 40x40 or 50x50, I don't have the model.

I usually put my General on Wyvern, so that the leadership bubble was 18 Inches and had the BSB nearby, so they could reroll failed Stupidity checks...

 Moscha wrote:
If I remember correctly, the problem with an Orc Big Boss on boar was the different base size, so he could be picked out in ranged combat.

Yeah template weapons and cannon will be a problem since he cannot claim a lookout sir since he is a different troop type. From what I have read he is safe from normal shooting that uses BS as long as there are 5 or more models.

I don't think I have to worry too much about about templates and cannons. My son is set on playing Lizardmen for a while and my buddy is playing Ogres. He isn't fielding an Ironblaster yet but that could pose a problem if he gets one.

Its not that he could be picked out, all characters can be. Its that he can't get a Look out Sir! from the Trolls because he is a different unit type. Base size doesn't have a bearing on target-ability in 8th. Any character can be sniped by a cannonball, its just if they're the same unit type they get a 2+ Look out Sir roll which mostly makes it irrelevant.

You just need to keep the general/BSB nearby. 12" is a lot bigger than you think it is. Trolls should be in the central part of your line anyway. Or at least part of the main line so close enough to the General and/or BSB. Use them to charge the same unit as another unit and gang up on them. They're the hammer to another unit's anvil. They're not flankers.

Its not worth investing the points of a Big Boss just so your trolls have a couple extra points of leadership. Because even with that they have a good chance of failing anyway. They really need to be within range of the general and the BSB. Big boss is what, Ld8? Thats still a 28% chance your whole unit just bumbles forward. For something as expensive as Trolls with a big boss, thats not odds you want to risk on a crucial turn.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Hey Dakka,

I am working on my O&G list and want to include a unit of 12-16 trolls. I want them to reach their target and not stop to smell the flowers. I also don't want to park the general next to them the whole game. I was thinking of putting an Orc Bigboss on a boar with them, maybe with the Crown of Command.

I have played fantasy for a long time but not much O&G. We are currently playing 8th ed. Has anyone had any luck with this tactic or any other good ideas for a troll delivery system?

This is a non issue.

I am working on my O&G list and want to include a unit of 12-16 trolls.

That is a lot of trolls, while at it get 18, its only two more than your max size and you get horde bonus and three ranks fighting.
Even with a dozen trolls this will gobble up a lot of points and thus be the centre of your army on anything but the largest games.

I want them to reach their target and not stop to smell the flowers.

For O&G your warboss should always be anchoring the combat line, trolls or no trolls.

I also don't want to park the general next to them the whole game.

Then dont take 12+ trolls. You can outsource leadership of a smaller unit of trolls and have something else as the centre of your line.

I was thinking of putting an Orc Bigboss on a boar with them, maybe with the Crown of Command.

The pig wont help much and makes ranking up even more of a bind.

or any other good ideas for a troll delivery system?

May I suggest a goblin warboss instead. This way you get the same Ld but trade T5 for W3, costs about the same all told. Modelling tip: glue two 20mm square bases together for a custom 20x40 base. Add the goblin character lengthways like a cavalry mount. This way you can add him to the middle of the trolls in the unit. do not use this miniature for any reason other than troll herding. Only the first half of the base counts, the rest is formally 'filler'. To be fair, remind your opponent of that when they lay down line templates like burning head and cannon fired from the side.

Has anyone had any luck with this tactic

Big block trolls has some advantages. First its a very good choice if you want to use a wyvern. you can successfully hide a wyvern behind trolls cannonballs have to go through the trolls which have 3 wounds and a 4++ (dwarf runes excepting) this makes it highly likely a cannonball will be stopped before reaching your wyvern, especially if the trolls are in three ranks. This is because Monsterous infantry stop cannonballs if a model survives.
Odds are good. For each troll:
a) roll a 1 to wound
b) roll a 1-2 for number of wounds caused - wounds will always be full except for a lone troll on the back rank
c) roll 4+ regen - unless enchanted by Rune of Fire or spell causing flaming attacks.

Two ranks is pretty reliable shielding, three ranks is near impervious. Remember the cannon player must see where they place the aim point and cant see past the trolls in most circumstances, so it is very difficult to aim the cannon over the trolls to hit the wyvern.

The only dilemma here is when to choose to abandon your troll shield and attack with the wyvern.

Second advantage is that trolls make an excellent panic breaker. Panic is a real problem for O&G, trolls are Immune to Psychology, in 8th Stupidity gives this as a permanent bonus whether the stupidity test is passed or failed. As its difficult to a troll block not to be more than 4" across panic cannot spread through the unit. I have seen O&G chain rout because of some mishap. The faction includes a lot of lone models which can be cannon sniped and cause a panic test, or elements that self destruct, while Size Matters stops some panic that will not stop elements of your army panicking, and it is not difficult to for the cause of panic not to be a goblin unit. Your best panic breaks are trolls, giants and black orcs. Tip: For this reason you don't need to field trolls next to black orcs if you have both, instead have multiple separate panic breakers in your army.

Hope this helps.

 Orlanth wrote:

The pig wont help much and makes ranking up even more of a bind.

Ranking up really isn't an issue. Per page 98 if the base sizes don't match you attach the character to the front rank and the rank and file rank up on their own not the character. So I put the trolls in 4 wide by 3 deep and the bigboss attaches to the front rank. The trolls keep their ranks.

I don't like the goblin bigboss too much as he is a bit weedy to be shuffling trolls around. Thanks for the rest though, I might try the screen for the Wyvern. The troll cannonball screen as it shall now be known

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Ranking up really isn't an issue. Per page 98 if the base sizes don't match you attach the character to the front rank and the rank and file rank up on their own not the character.

This is true of all such cases, you add the character to the corner or fit it in. I chose a 20mm square base gobbo with a 20mm filler for neatness. This is problematic with cavalry bases in 40mm units, it disrupts to the rear as well as the sides, gets so messy you normally place the hero outside at the corner.
THIS IS A PROBLEM.
If you are relying on a mounted character to give intelligence to such a large unit of trolls he will be sniped, individually charged etc and the trolls can do little to stop this. If you want an orc take a foot orc and put him in the middle of the troll unit with trolls either side, rank up the rest of the trolls with the front rank being 20 or 25mm wider. whether orc or gobbo I do suggest making a filler base 40mm deep to fill in the unsightly gap. This doesnt change the rules is just aesthetics but worth it for a hero used specifically as a troll herder.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

So I put the trolls in 4 wide by 3 deep and the bigboss attaches to the front rank. The trolls keep their ranks.

That is solid. Why 16 trolls top though, a 4x4 block, that is wasteful for +1 rank bonus and trolls are sturdy enough. I would make the high end or this unit 6x3 horde. It also breaks down into smaller units more neatly.
The standard minimum troll block is 3x2, this offers two full ranks without much overlap, they all fight with all attacks and two ranks is enough for a shield. Even though GW showcased monsterous infantry in single ranks of three you should really consider six as your go to at consider this (or larger) a stock issue if you want to ever take a wyvern. Field a wyvern, means field six trolls, you needn't go bigger than that as the wyvern boss is the star of that build and needs proper support which eats points.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

I don't like the goblin bigboss too much as he is a bit weedy to be shuffling trolls around. Thanks for the rest though, I might try the screen for the wyvern. The troll cannonball screen as it shall now be known

Your call T5 vs W3, the orc is meatier but the gobbo is faster, however both are broadly as powerful as each other. However when you add a ward save things get different. If herding a giant unit of trolls you need a 4++ as this character is a major lynchpin of your army. even the best ward saves are hit or miss, when applied over three wounds you have a much better chance of the save kicking in. Ward saves on two wound characters are over that much more quickly. A warboss also has room for other things like stubborn crown if you want it et al.
the higher initiative of a goblin warboss can become a factor as it limits the options of what can be slammed into him in an assassination role. Greenskins are so slow you rarely need actual assassins to assassinate them. Just have a high initiative stat and base them. I3 orc big bosses are laughably slow, goblin warbosses at I4 are only marginally faster but the extra point of initiative really matters though this depends on the army. The transition range at that point covers most of the models in warhammer, including many monsters. Of course if fighting elves or skaven this will not be a factor, and a support character will not stop a monster so application is very situational.
Now for a smaller indie troll unit a budget pig rider on the outside will do, you don't need to worrit too much about said character being a major target if he is leading six trolls. But if you want a big block you need a well protected central character with a 4++, or you need the general, or both.



Which troll subrace are you using? My recommendation is to go for common trolls.

Which models are you using? I struggle to find decent trolls.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Ranking up really isn't an issue. Per page 98 if the base sizes don't match you attach the character to the front rank and the rank and file rank up on their own not the character.

This is true of all such cases, you add the character to the corner or fit it in. I chose a 20mm square base gobbo with a 20mm filler for neatness. This is problematic with cavalry bases in 40mm units, it disrupts to the rear as well as the sides, gets so messy you normally place the hero outside at the corner.
THIS IS A PROBLEM.
If you are relying on a mounted character to give intelligence to such a large unit of trolls he will be sniped, individually charged etc and the trolls can do little to stop this. If you want an orc take a foot orc and put him in the middle of the troll unit with trolls either side, rank up the rest of the trolls with the front rank being 20 or 25mm wider. whether orc or gobbo I do suggest making a filler base 40mm deep to fill in the unsightly gap. This doesnt change the rules is just aesthetics but worth it for a hero used specifically as a troll herder.

In the past I have tried a boss on foot with a smaller unit of trolls. I didn't like that the trolls had to slow down to keep up with him. There was at least 1 charge where that extra movement would have made it in That's why I wanted the boar.

 Orlanth wrote:

Which troll subrace are you using? My recommendation is to go for common trolls.

Which models are you using? I struggle to find decent trolls.

For now I am going with regular trolls and saving my Rare points for some Rock Lobbers. For models I have 4 or 5 of the metal GW Stone Trolls, the rest are Reaper Bones Trolls. A while ago I got a good deal on a bunch of them. They fit well on a 40mm base. I would love to have all old Stone Trolls but they go for way too much on the after market these days

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

In the past I have tried a boss on foot with a smaller unit of trolls. I didn't like that the trolls had to slow down to keep up with him. There was at least 1 charge where that extra movement would have made it in That's why I wanted the boar.

There is a trick you can use. First test for stupidity as that is mandatory, with the Ld8 bonus. then detach and charge the trolls. March the hero behind them, if the trolls are deep enough you should reach the rear rank and rejoin the unit. The hero doesnt count as charging but otherwise no penalties. This may sound cheesy but really all that happening is the trolls charge and the orc jogs along behind catching up after the trolls get stuck in. If anything happens from the charge reaction though the trolls are at base Ld.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

For now I am going with regular trolls and saving my Rare points for some Rock Lobbers. For models I have 4 or 5 of the metal GW Stone Trolls, the rest are Reaper Bones Trolls. A while ago I got a good deal on a bunch of them. They fit well on a 40mm base. I would love to have all old Stone Trolls but they go for way too much on the after market these days

I like Reaper bones trolls but there is no pose variation. How did you fix that? Can I see them?

I have resorted to Mantic trolls. I am very yes-and-no about them. I like the basic concept but don't like the weaponry or the armour. were they bare like the zombie trolls they would be much better. Still they do. I have to use mine as Stone Trolls to account for the armour.

 Orlanth wrote:

I like Reaper bones trolls but there is no pose variation. How did you fix that? Can I see them?

I have resorted to Mantic trolls. I am very yes-and-no about them. I like the basic concept but don't like the weaponry or the armour. were they bare like the zombie trolls they would be much better. Still they do. I have to use mine as Stone Trolls to account for the armour.

I will see if I can snap some pics, after I find where I put them The bones convert well because it is very soft to cut through. I just reposition the arms a little. Big tip is ONLY use Army Painter primer on bones models. Other priners have chemicals that will cause them models to become tacky.

Mantic has some nice models, Inlove their Goblins, but I don't care for their trolls and ogres. Sometimes you have to go with what you can get but they look a bit weedy to me and the faces are a little bland.

Mantic are inconsistent in sculpt quality and composition. Some of their models are fairly nice, one or two models are exceptional, but overall I wouldn't bother with Mantic and it will be a cold day in Hell before I buy any of their elves.

I cant criticise Mantic too much because they made this:

and sell them at a decent price. It's made of cheap iron and uses testosterone as fuel.

May I suggest you buy this:
http://www.manticgames.com/ImageCache/Products/4964.1.368.368.FFFFFF.0.jpeg

They say Greater Earth Elemental, I saw a Rogue Idol of Gork.

 Orlanth wrote:
Mantic are inconsistent in sculpt quality and composition. Some of their models are fairly nice, one or two models are exceptional, but overall I wouldn't bother with Mantic and it will be a cold day in Hell before I buy any of their elves...

I agree with you on the mantic elves, talk about weedy. That flyer is awesome, I will have to pick some up for my 40K armies. I find Mantic to be a mixed bag, I either like it or can't stand it.

On the trolls I tried to snap some pics today but they are not showing up to well since they are just primed. I'll try and throw a quick coat of paint on them this week and post some comparison shots.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Ranking up really isn't an issue. Per page 98 if the base sizes don't match you attach the character to the front rank and the rank and file rank up on their own not the character.

This is true of all such cases, you add the character to the corner or fit it in. I chose a 20mm square base gobbo with a 20mm filler for neatness. This is problematic with cavalry bases in 40mm units, it disrupts to the rear as well as the sides, gets so messy you normally place the hero outside at the corner.
THIS IS A PROBLEM.
If you are relying on a mounted character to give intelligence to such a large unit of trolls he will be sniped, individually charged etc and the trolls can do little to stop this. If you want an orc take a foot orc and put him in the middle of the troll unit with trolls either side, rank up the rest of the trolls with the front rank being 20 or 25mm wider. whether orc or gobbo I do suggest making a filler base 40mm deep to fill in the unsightly gap. This doesnt change the rules is just aesthetics but worth it for a hero used specifically as a troll herder.

Doesn't work like that. If the character doesn't fit neatly it has to be put on the side, so anything other than 40x40 or multiples (say, a hypothetical 40x80) goes on the corner, which means the only character you can move around in a troll unit is a giant spider boss or warboss (which is tough enough at T4 and can get up to a 2+ cheap and even get a crown of command for max L9.

It doesn't solve the issue about it being a cannon magnet though, so in the end you're still better off going with a cheap boar, wolf or spider rider going in the corner. I'd never put an infantry character there because it slows the unit down as OP mentioned.

The best chance is still make sure the trolls REALLY stay within range of your general and BSB. That's pretty much it, and that's why trolls are so good bang for buck relative to other monstrous infantry.

I've always been a big proponent of the wyvern troll screen, usually you want the wyvern charging the same place as the big troll unit and it being a big flyer it can do it perfectly. It means that in a few games you'll have your general going down to some cannon shot, but taking chances is part of the game.

 Orlanth wrote:

I like Reaper bones trolls but there is no pose variation. How did you fix that? Can I see them?

No paint on them yet but you can see they are easy to convert and rank up well with the GW models.














The white Bones material is super easy to cut through and super glue works well on it. Just a little patience, some extra, bits, and green stuff and a unit of trolls for less than 1 old GW model will cost you in Ebay. Also for priming, only use Army Painter Spray paint. Other brands will leave the models tacky or cause it to bubble. You could also prime by hand.

Thank you. I am sold on the idea and would love to replace my Mantic trolls.

One final request can you link to the exact trolls you bought, I only found one reaper bones troll in one pose, I think I see two or three base models there,

 Orlanth wrote:
Thank you. I am sold on the idea and would love to replace my Mantic trolls.

One final request can you link to the exact trolls you bought, I only found one reaper bones troll in one pose, I think I see two or three base models there,

Your welcome! Always happy to spread more trollness to the world

This is the fellow I used, Reaper Bones Cave Teoll
https://www.reapermini.com/miniatures/cave%20troll/latest/77004

I would also recommend these
Reaper Bones Marsh Troll
https://www.reapermini.com/search/marsh%20troll/latest/77152

Reaper Bones Ice Troll
https://www.reapermini.com/miniatures/ice%20troll/latest/77344

If you search Ebay you will find a bunch of people selling these guys from $2-4 each. Sometimes they go on sale, I got mine for $1.29 each.

Oh you clever troll! But on a serious side, I would love to see this on the table

 Trondheim wrote:
Oh you clever troll! But on a serious side, I would love to see this on the table

Soon

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Your welcome! Always happy to spread more trollness to the world

Then I should see little resistance to my comment that you should go for 18 trolls for an optimised troll horde.
It's only two trolls more.

lets look at this for a moment, we will assume the trolls are fighting a unit to the front and the unit is wide enough to be optimised for fighting a frontage of four trolls.

4x4. 8 trolls swing, up to four trolls vomit, four trolls full supporting attacks. Full rank bonus, but at the cost of four redundant trolls at the back. Can only afford one casualty before +3 rank bonus is under threat.

6x3. 12 trolls swing, up to four trolls vomit, eight trolls full supporting attacks from second and third rank. +2 Rank bonus maximum, with six 'reduntand' trolls at the sides, though they could be easily in play if the enemy unit is any wider (this is calculated as a optimised for the 4x4 formation). Can afford three casualties before the +2 bonus is threatened. Those remaining trolls can swing. Costs two trolls more.

It's a no brainer. Horde your trolls. And for the record 24 is way too many. In either case are paying too much for a fourth rank, it's a lot of points for only +1 combat res and you are very unlikely to break steadfast until the opponent is heavily depleted.

 Orlanth wrote:

Then I should see little resistance to my comment that you should go for 18 trolls for an optimised troll horde.
It's only two trolls more.

Guess I gots to get me two more trolls

It's also three optimised units of six. For spreading the love to everyone. You will need a wyvern for this to boost the leadership range with the centre troll unit being kept as a meat shield.

In all honesty this is more sensible, but troll hordes are nice and do work. I have seen it in play, though it was a Throgg army, so it's slightly different..

 Orlanth wrote:
It's also three optimised units of six. For spreading the love to everyone. You will need a wyvern for this to boost the leadership range with the centre troll unit being kept as a meat shield.

In all honesty this is more sensible, but troll hordes are nice and do work. I have seen it in play, though it was a Throgg army, so it's slightly different..

I think I'll play a couple games and see which I like best. Just the psychological damage that may trolls can inflict is worth playing.

Until I get two more trolls I'll have to stick a couple Fen Beasts in the back rank. I may get to play them tomorrow so we'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Two units of 9 isn't a bad idea either, but again the Wyvern is better in that respect than the herder.

I seriously recommend you don't field any troll that cant swing. Think of it on a cost per rank bonus, realise how many points you are haemorraging.

3x2 or 4x2 both good. 6x3 is good. I wouldn't bother with anything else frankly.

Crypt Horrors work nicely in 3x3, or deeper because you can bring them back and want a high top end unit count to Nehek back to. Yes you are still paying a lot of points extra for +1 rank bonus but am getting a lot more than that out of it. Take six Crypt horrors and you cant raise them above six, take nine and you have a block which even if depleted can be magicked back.
Ogres work nicely in 3x3 or deeper because you really have no choice if you want any static resilience and they get side bonuses on the charge. Trolls lack that dynamic, there is no point to paying extra for trolls that don't swing.

Instead tag team non-horded trolls with deep blocks of orcs, preferably black orcs or shielded orcs. Let them break steadfast for you. Don't use gobbos, you risk bleeding combat res.

Trolls are looking good. I liked these so much I am now working on a Throgg army I know they can't have a banner, but I just thought it was fun. I figure they have one but are just too stupid to notice

You have to REALLY hate fun to not let someone field that banner

6 more trolls. It's starting to get crowded around here

Very late information, but I think I should share this.

Today while looking at buying more Mantic trolls (after holding my nose first) I noticed these:



These are resin trolls made by TT Combat; and are part of the Fantasy Heroes line, a secondary fairly limited production mostly for Warhammer legacy and similar games.
They only came on the market in May of this year, and sell out easily, mostly due to slow production rather than high demand.

They are fairly basic, but frankly that is what I was always after.

More trolls are always a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

6 trolls for $27 (US) isn't bad either.