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This is a spin off fron the SM infinite hits thread

Essentially the argument is over whether you are obligated by fast rolling to roll all the dice or whether you can roll only a portion.


"However, it is possible to speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar attacks together.
In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."

One argument goes
The only part of this where you are given permission or instructed to do something is the ending sentance.

"If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. "

This clearly instructs you to roll all to hit and to wound rolls.

The section below is a prerequisite for this telling you the conditons you need to meet in order to be able to fast roll but not instructing you to do anything. On its own its the following "if this is the case" that makes it relevant"

So I have 20 bolt guns firing at target A all most be rolled together in order to fast roll.

"In order to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit."


The second argument is that the isolated clause "In order to make several attacks at once," gives you permission to create as many subgroups as you like.

"If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. " is then applied to each subgroup

So of my 20 bolt guns i could fast roll 5 resolve the damage then fast roll 10 at the same target resolve the damage then fast roll 5 at the same target.

All parties recognise the alternative of sequential rolling however it is also disputed if once commencing fast rolling you can fast roll 10 bolt guns then sequencially roll 5 at the same target then fast roll 5.

What does everyone think

It's one or the other, you cannot mix and match. However, I will say it's less clear as to whether you can choose to, for example, fast roll Bolters and then slow roll your two Grav-Cannons.

"If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time..."

If you roll 5 to hit out of 20, that is not making all of the hit rolls at the same time.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's one or the other, you cannot mix and match. However, I will say it's less clear as to whether you can choose to, for example, fast roll Bolters and then slow roll your two Grav-Cannons.

I think you have to be able to because of plasma type weapons

If i has a squad with 4 boltguns a plasma gun and a plasma pistol

Fast rolling bolt guns make sense but you would need to sequence the plasma to hit rolls so you know which model to remove on an overcharged 1.

Although thats not really a RAW argument because you could always sequence the boltguns in order to sequence the plasma. I can't see many opponents objecting though.

U02dah4 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's one or the other, you cannot mix and match. However, I will say it's less clear as to whether you can choose to, for example, fast roll Bolters and then slow roll your two Grav-Cannons.

I think you have to be able to because of plasma type weapons

If i has a squad with 4 boltguns a plasma gun and a plasma pistol

Fast rolling bolt guns make sense but you would need to sequence the plasma to hit rolls so you know which model to remove on an overcharged 1.

Although thats not really a RAW argument because you could always sequence the boltguns in order to sequence the plasma. I can't see many opponents objecting though.

You can fast roll plasma just fine. Just because you fast roll it doesn't change the fact that certain die are assigned to certain models. You just need to be able to identify which dice are assigned to which model.

True

OP has it correct. Nothing compels you to fire all of a type in one subgroup. That reading isn’t supported by the text.

Are you suggesting that you can subgroup fast rolling? if so what gives you permission?

U02dah4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that you can subgroup fast rolling? if so what gives you permission?

Definitely, as you wrote in the OP. “In order to make several attacks at once” in no way obligates you to roll all similar attacks at once.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that you can subgroup fast rolling? if so what gives you permission?

Definitely, as you wrote in the OP. “In order to make several attacks at once” in no way obligates you to roll all similar attacks at once.

That may not, but "make all of the hit rolls at the same time..." definitely obligates you to roll all similar attacks at once.

U02dah4 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's one or the other, you cannot mix and match. However, I will say it's less clear as to whether you can choose to, for example, fast roll Bolters and then slow roll your two Grav-Cannons.

I think you have to be able to because of plasma type weapons

If i has a squad with 4 boltguns a plasma gun and a plasma pistol

Fast rolling bolt guns make sense but you would need to sequence the plasma to hit rolls so you know which model to remove on an overcharged 1.

Although thats not really a RAW argument because you could always sequence the boltguns in order to sequence the plasma. I can't see many opponents objecting though.

You use fast rolling to fasten the game when it doesn't have mechanical difference. So you can't fast roll plasma for reason you mentioned(though myself I don't care if opponent fast roll 10 shots from 10 guys and just removes casualties. Speed over anal rules reading. If 20 plasma shots from 10 guys(plasma gun in rapid fire range) roll 10 dice, roll 1's again separately. Still reasonably fast and prevents 2 1's from 1 guy cooking 2 guys).

This is situation where sensible way is fast roll what you can and not what you can't. If you insist it's all or nothing then it's just slowing game with no benefits for either. At least in sensible goals. Somebody trying to game it to slow game deliberately might benefit but that's benefit game doesn't need.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that you can subgroup fast rolling? if so what gives you permission?

Definitely, as you wrote in the OP. “In order to make several attacks at once” in no way obligates you to roll all similar attacks at once.

Assuming of course that "several" means something more than multiple.

Going by pure RAW (and I believe that is what OP is looking for), I must say that the last sentence seems pretty cut-and-dry. Unless there you're taking "all" to mean "as many as you desire" and not all. It's not even contradictory with your quoted portion because all of the hit rolls are still indeed several hit rolls.

All in that context means all of the attacks you’ve chosen to make. It doesn’t remotely mean all possible similar attacks. That’s not how the English parses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that you can subgroup fast rolling? if so what gives you permission?

Definitely, as you wrote in the OP. “In order to make several attacks at once” in no way obligates you to roll all similar attacks at once.

That may not, but "make all of the hit rolls at the same time..." definitely obligates you to roll all similar attacks at once.

Nope. All of the set you’ve chosen. That’s just how the English works.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
All in that context means all of the attacks you’ve chosen to make. It doesn’t remotely mean all possible similar attacks. That’s not how the English parses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Are you suggesting that you can subgroup fast rolling? if so what gives you permission?

Definitely, as you wrote in the OP. “In order to make several attacks at once” in no way obligates you to roll all similar attacks at once.

That may not, but "make all of the hit rolls at the same time..." definitely obligates you to roll all similar attacks at once.

Nope. All of the set you’ve chosen. That’s just how the English works.

That is demonstrably false. There is no allowance to choose a sub-set if they are all the same. The set you can choose is Bolters or missile launchers, but you can not choose only 5 Bolters if there are 10 Bolters in the shooting unit targeting a single enemy unit.

"make all of the hit rolls at the same" time clearly means that you can not save some for later, you literally need to make them all at once.

There is no allowance to break up to hit rolls if the all have "the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack)... They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time..."

All of the hit rolls, that have the same Ballistic Skill Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics that are directed at the same unit need to be rolled all at once. you can not split them up ever (If you choose to fast roll).

I'm with deathreaper on this one you do not have explicit permission to subset when fast rolling.

You can’t read that line as an operative command to force you to roll all e.g. bolters at once. It’s telling you to roll all the “several” attacks you’ve decided to at once.

There’s some weird misreading going on, likely borne of edition lag and conventions, which the current Fast Rolling rules break from.

For the record, I read it as being able to subgroup. In the same vein as saying: "take a handful of apples from the table and carry them all to the counter".

I would agree, the english here is stating that you can roll similar attacks together, it doesn't specify how many. Then once you have chosen how many, you roll all of them together.
Its quite easy to parse, why is this a problem ?

 Type40 wrote:
I would agree, the english here is stating that you can roll similar attacks together, it doesn't specify how many. Then once you have chosen how many, you roll all of them together.
Its quite easy to parse, why is this a problem ?

It literally says to roll all the dice. That is specifying how many, namely all of them.

lets say my opponent is playing IG... are you really going to call them out and say,,, oh you have to roll 400 dice or one at a time, no exceptions.... that's ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
I would agree, the english here is stating that you can roll similar attacks together, it doesn't specify how many. Then once you have chosen how many, you roll all of them together.
Its quite easy to parse, why is this a problem ?

It literally says to roll all the dice. That is specifying how many, namely all of them.

Ya,,, your skipping a few sentences there bud.
It says to roll all of the dice yes,,, but that is referring to all of the dice you have decided roll together, it isn't a qualifier for how many of the similar attacks you must roll together.

I don't understand why people here keep singling out half sentences from rules and claiming there is not context attached to them.
Using that same logic, it could be saying "roll all of the dice you own" or "roll all of the dice in the world"
Why not XD ? if we are going to ignore the rest of the paragraph anyways lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only qualifier for how many is "several attacks at once" seems pretty clear its up to the attacker how many their several is (as long as it meets the restrictions)

 Type40 wrote:
lets say my opponent is playing IG... are you really going to call them out and say,,, oh you have to roll 400 dice or one at a time, no exceptions.... that's ridiculous.

I will make them follow the rules. That means they can choose to either roll their lasguns one at a time, or roll all their lasguns together. They then can roll all their Plasmaguns together, or one at a time.

Then you are making them follow your rules, not THE rules.
I think I will make them roll ALL the dice in the room... because it says to "roll all the dice." context of a paragraph is for chumps.

 Type40 wrote:
Then you are making them follow your rules, not THE rules.
I think I will make them roll ALL the dice in the room... because it says to "roll all the dice." context of a paragraph is for chumps.

The "context" is attacks that have the same set of required characteristics.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Then you are making them follow your rules, not THE rules.
I think I will make them roll ALL the dice in the room... because it says to "roll all the dice." context of a paragraph is for chumps.

The "context" is attacks that have the same set of required characteristics.

Your ignoring the fact that within the same sentence that provides the characteristics restrictions it simply says "several attacks at once."

several = more then one.
several does not mean ALL.

So within context it is, pick more then one attack that has the same characteristics. Then roll all the attacks you have picked.
We can either ignore the ENTIRE context or apply the ENTIRE context.
and if we ignore the ENTIRE context, i want my opponent to roll all the dice we can find in the room, I got some nice d20s for them to roll as well.

Yes under English several can be all or several can be more than one but that misses the point

Strictly speaking the sentence says

In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack).

It doesn't say you may group several attacks together
It doesnt say you can choose any number of attacks that have similar characteristics.
In fact that sentence doesn't make any reference to how to group them at all.

All it says is that in order to group them they must have the following characteristics


What the paragraph does conclude with is

"If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. "

This could be simplified to: in order to make several attacks at once they must meet X requirements. If they do make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

Whats grammatically confusing is that the instruction for what to do is at the end while the prerequisites are in the middle.

In english, what is to stop "if they do make all of the hit rolls together" from simply referring to all of the attacks being made that follow the requirements of "several attacks at once."
If it worked the way your describing then wouldn't it say "make all of the hit rolls with these characteristics together"

but it doesn't say that. It says if you want to make several attacks together, the must meet X requirments. Then roll all of those several attacks together.

Otherwise you are adding extra restrictions/context that isn't there. Or you are just reading "roll all the dice together" which doesn't really say all of what.

 Type40 wrote:
In english, what is to stop "if they do make all of the hit rolls together" from simply referring to all of the attacks being made that follow the requirements of "several attacks at once."
If it worked the way your describing then wouldn't it say "make all of the hit rolls with these characteristics together"

but it doesn't say that. It says if you want to make several attacks together, the must meet X requirments. Then roll all of those several attacks together.

Otherwise you are adding extra restrictions/context that isn't there. Or you are just reading "roll all the dice together" which doesn't really say all of what.

This guy gets it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
In english, what is to stop "if they do make all of the hit rolls together" from simply referring to all of the attacks being made that follow the requirements of "several attacks at once."
If it worked the way your describing then wouldn't it say "make all of the hit rolls with these characteristics together"

but it doesn't say that. It says if you want to make several attacks together, the must meet X requirments. Then roll all of those several attacks together.

Otherwise you are adding extra restrictions/context that isn't there. Or you are just reading "roll all the dice together" which doesn't really say all of what.

This guy gets it.

Except he doesn't - firstly because he has missed the point entirely. It doesn't matter if several in that context could refer to subgroups.

It could if you had permission to sub group based on the rest of the context. In an of itself it provides no instruction. Thats why context is central to this argument.

Secondly he has altered the instruction you do have to

if you want to make several attacks together, the must meet X requirments. Then roll all of those several attacks together.

From

if you want to make several attacks together, the must meet X requirments. Then roll all of those attacks together.

Note the difference in the line telling you what to do it just says add all of those attacks together theres no several he has inserted that to change the meaning.

Although because he has missed the point it doesn't make his premise stronger - all could refer to a subgroup of several but only if you had permission to sub group and RAW he has not shown that.

The instruction is simple add all together you have no other permissions

There is no need for anymore RAW to give me permission to roll them in batches.
It literally says "in order to make several attacks at once."
There is my permission. I want to make several attacks... aka more then one.
It does not anywhere in the paragraph say "you must make all attacks with the same characteristics together."
If it did. Then you'd be right,,, but it doesn't.

r. In order
to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit.

Alright, I will make several of my same characteristic attacks together... lets say 5 of these 10. That meets the requirements of several with the same characteristics.

If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then
all of the wound rolls

Great now I have followed the first instructions and I get to the next line of text. It wants me to make ALL 5 of my several hit rolls that I have chosen together (instead of normally doing them one at a time). Because the context of "ALL" was defined in the previous sentence. Very good I will.

As that's how syntax, english and, paragraphs in particular work

It does not say "to make ALL attacks with similar characteristics together." what it says here is how to make SEVERAL attacks together. several = more then one...
It says if you want to make several attacks at once (a number above 1 of your choice as it doesn't specify how many, just that it must be more then one) (i.e. " In order to make several attacks at
once,")where ALL of those attacks meet certain restrictions( ie " all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill ..."
Then it says, if you meet the above requirements roll all dice involved in the above requirements (requirements being, more then one attack and same characteristics[as described above]) (i.e. "If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then
all of the wound rolls.")

Again, you can't just pluck a sentence out of the context of its paragraph. and even if you do, then what is the "ALL" in that second sentence even referring too if it isn't "several attacks with the same characteristics" as described in previous sentence.

If we want to do it that way, we can just do what I described in a post before. On its own, and plucked out of context, the sentence could be referring to ALL sorts of dice. I will make my opponent roll ALL of the dice in the room, even this cool d30 I found. Because why not, if ALL doesn't refer to the sentence that preceded it, I guess it can just refer to any anything. As long as it somehow means ALL of the dice. Without acknowledging the previous sentence, this literately makes 0 sense. "All of the dice," is a lot of dice... there is a world full of them.

You can't get it both ways, either it refers to the previous sentence, or it refers to all the dice ever... your choice.

Agreed. There is permission. There is however no compulsion to group all similar attacks.