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Breton wrote:


Nobody has said rolling some of the dice. This is a strawman, where you lie about what we said to make what you said sound right.

So, do you want to rethink that statement?

If several and some are synonymous, why are you arguing that several attacks has to be all of them?

@deathreaper,
it is really easy to think you are correct when you disregard and ignore any points that actually counter yours. Address every point against your position instead of just the ones you think you can counter. This approach makes your position seem even more ridiculous.

There is no point in arguing with a wall like this. You don't care about any points that counter your position. You have consistently just ignored every point that clearly counters yours and then you throw some strawman out so the discussion can focus on some silly point that you keep circling back to. Circular arguments with stuborn people that fully ignore sections of what you are saying isn't discourse, its just a waste of time.

So, we'll play correctly and you just play by what ever rules you feel like XD. Why even bother buying a rule book lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think at this point, this thread has more then enough evidence to show that what is both RAW and RAI is that you can fast roll in what ever batches you want (as long as they share the same characteristics). So I am done here.

If people want to keep up with the circular arguments, please do but I am out. I know how I will teach and play these rules.

Thanks for the discourse.

 flandarz wrote:
If several and some are synonymous, why are you arguing that several attacks has to be all of them?

Because it literally says "make all of the hit rolls at the same time". (If you choose to fast roll). All. end of.

They used several because it is open ended, and if you have 2 or 200 attacks that fit the criteria, several covers all situations.

Do not ignore the context.

 Type40 wrote:
I think at this point, this thread has more then enough evidence to show that what is both RAW and RAI is that you can fast roll in what ever batches you want (as long as they share the same characteristics).

Stop saying that, it is not at all true.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
If several and some are synonymous, why are you arguing that several attacks has to be all of them?

Because it literally says "make all of the hit rolls at the same time". (If you choose to fast roll). All. end of.

They used several because it is open ended, and if you have 2 or 200 attacks that fit the criteria, several covers all situations.

Do not ignore the context.

 Type40 wrote:
I think at this point, this thread has more then enough evidence to show that what is both RAW and RAI is that you can fast roll in what ever batches you want (as long as they share the same characteristics).

Stop saying that, it is not at all true.

All of the hit rolls for the several attacks with similar characteristics that you selected to fast roll.

You are laughably incorrect here.

 Type40 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:



"However, it is possible to speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar attacks together.
In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."

A little hypothetical:

X people graduate from university.

Y graduates are chosen to join MI6 based on the criteria that they must all be able to speak 3 languages. They must also have knowledge of computer programming techniques. If this is the case all graduates must sign a form agreeing to be bound by the official secrets act.

Now, in this scenario, are all the graduates from X who can speak 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming made to sign the form or only those Y chosen to join MI6?

Good comparison.

p.s. I love your screen name, that episode scared the bejezus out of me as a kid.

Really i have no idea what he is trying to say

Lol that's because, as we have pointed out several times, you can't seem to parse english...




If you only read every post, you'd easily see that it is. There are some posts on this thread that counter everything you are saying pretty hard... especially the ones you skip over and ignore (maybe deliberately?) that are directly responding to some of your claims.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:



"However, it is possible to speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar attacks together.
In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."

A little hypothetical:

X people graduate from university.

Y graduates are chosen to join MI6 based on the criteria that they must all be able to speak 3 languages. They must also have knowledge of computer programming techniques. If this is the case all graduates must sign a form agreeing to be bound by the official secrets act.

Now, in this scenario, are all the graduates from X who can speak 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming made to sign the form or only those Y chosen to join MI6?

Good comparison.

p.s. I love your screen name, that episode scared the bejezus out of me as a kid.

Really i have no idea what he is trying to say

A) 100 people graduate from university
B) Of those 100 people, 50 know 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming
C) MI6 selects 4 people from the pool of 50 to recruit, as they have a selection criteria that you must speak at least 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming to work for MI6
D) In order to work for MI6 you must be bound by the Official Secrets Act and so must sign a form confirming this

So, how many people sign the form?

This relates back to the fast rolling rules in the following way:

1) We have a total pool of attacks (this is the total pool of graduates)
2) Some of those attacks have similar characteristics (these are the graduates which match the selection criteria)
3) We can fast roll several (i.e more than one) attacks if they match the criteria of having similar statistics (MI6 selects 4 graduates to recruit)
4) For the selected set of attacks we roll all their to hits, then to wounds, saves etc. (this is the graduates signing the form)

By arguing that all of the attacks which share similar characteristics must be fast rolled in one set, you are saying that every graduate who met MI6's criteria would have to sign the form, rather than just the 4 who were selected to be recruited.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Deathreaper, you might do well to stow the “you have no backup” when your interpretation is based on misreading the English. Let’s take the “you do not grasp” and “you have no rules backing” etc. insinuations down a notch, given grammar is against you here.

Grammatically, you’re completely incorrect. The sentence does not define “several” at all. Rolling “all the dice” refers to the several attacks you’ve chosen - you’re rolling all the dice for those attacks together not one by one. This has been explained by other posters already. This is how grammar works here. There is no compulsion to group ALL similar shots in the RAW, just to roll all the dice for the group of shots you choose at the same time.

As others have also said, if it functioned the way you say then Fast Rolling only works if you you fire all guns at one target. You believe the wording compels you to roll all e.g. Bolters together... hard luck if you wanted to split fire, eh? Luckily that isn’t the case.

The weird tangent about not being able to split things because you have e.g. 30 shots to make and only 10 dice is... well that’s only an internet problem. Jeez, if anyone tried pulling that reading I’d carry on, and if they insisted I’d just laugh and pack up... save myself grief at whatever other lawyering they might be harbouring. Honestly... if you’ve declared you’re grouping shots but don’t have enough dice just roll dice til you’ve rolled enough, or sub-batch them. It really is a non-problem and this forum’s utility is diminished every time a thread falls down a rabbit hole like that. The forum is ultimately about how to play the game, and it’s entirely possible to make more shots than you have dice. End of.

Your first paragraph is wrong and an insult

Your second paragraph is wrong at the word chosen

You have not established any quote yet showing you are allowd or have permission to choose. Without that several in its clause is undefined till a later sentence defines it.

Your conclusion that if its read that way means multiple guns dont work is erroneous none of you have shown that at all. Following the RAW they have different characteristics so form a seperate group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:



"However, it is possible to speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar attacks together.
In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."

A little hypothetical:

X people graduate from university.

Y graduates are chosen to join MI6 based on the criteria that they must all be able to speak 3 languages. They must also have knowledge of computer programming techniques. If this is the case all graduates must sign a form agreeing to be bound by the official secrets act.

Now, in this scenario, are all the graduates from X who can speak 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming made to sign the form or only those Y chosen to join MI6?

Good comparison.

p.s. I love your screen name, that episode scared the bejezus out of me as a kid.

Really i have no idea what he is trying to say

A) 100 people graduate from university
B) Of those 100 people, 50 know 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming
C) MI6 selects 4 people from the pool of 50 to recruit, as they have a selection criteria that you must speak at least 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming to work for MI6
D) In order to work for MI6 you must be bound by the Official Secrets Act and so must sign a form confirming this

So, how many people sign the form?

While I get the logic puzzle I fail to see how it is relevant to the question at hand.

The same technique referring to the actual question has already been user to clearly show several is defined as "all" this is as much a tangent as the stupidy of what if i onky have 10 dice.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


All of the hit rolls for the several attacks with similar characteristics that you selected to fast roll.

You are laughably incorrect here.

(Emphasis mine).

Except you can not and have not shown proof in the rules for the underlined above. There is no allowance to only roll some of the attacks that have the same BS/Str etc...

At every turn your side has failed to provide a solid rules quote that supports your position. Your position just ignores the context.

Therefore, until you have some actual rules to back your position, I can not be "laughably incorrect here".

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:



"However, it is possible to speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar attacks together.
In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."

A little hypothetical:

X people graduate from university.

Y graduates are chosen to join MI6 based on the criteria that they must all be able to speak 3 languages. They must also have knowledge of computer programming techniques. If this is the case all graduates must sign a form agreeing to be bound by the official secrets act.

Now, in this scenario, are all the graduates from X who can speak 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming made to sign the form or only those Y chosen to join MI6?

Good comparison.

p.s. I love your screen name, that episode scared the bejezus out of me as a kid.

Really i have no idea what he is trying to say

A) 100 people graduate from university
B) Of those 100 people, 50 know 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming
C) MI6 selects 4 people from the pool of 50 to recruit, as they have a selection criteria that you must speak at least 3 languages and have knowledge of computer programming to work for MI6
D) In order to work for MI6 you must be bound by the Official Secrets Act and so must sign a form confirming this

So, how many people sign the form?

This relates back to the fast rolling rules in the following way:

1) We have a total pool of attacks (this is the total pool of graduates)
2) Some of those attacks have similar characteristics (these are the graduates which match the selection criteria)
3) We can fast roll several (i.e more than one) attacks if they match the criteria of having similar statistics (MI6 selects 4 graduates to recruit)
4) For the selected set of attacks we roll all their to hits, then to wounds, saves etc. (this is the graduates signing the form)

By arguing that all of the attacks which share similar characteristics must be fast rolled in one set, you are saying that every graduate who met MI6's criteria would have to sign the form, rather than just the 4 who were selected to be recruited.

Notice how you get to 3) then lie from then on and change the wording to back you up - but your wrong because you had to change the wording

3) in order to fast roll attacks they must meet criteria of... is what it says not giving permission

Not we can fast roll several attacks if they match the criteria... is your deliberatly misleading wording giving permission.

4) if this is the case roll all to hit rolls ... is the true wording so the equivalent would be if candidates meet the criteria try to hire all of them.

4) for the selected group of attacks... Again you get three words in before misleading. It doesn't make sense as in context we havn't had permission to choose.)

If you wanted a fair comparison it would be

1,2, in order to join MI6 you must meet the following criteria if candidates neet the criteria hire them all

U02dah4 wrote:


While I get the logic puzzle I fail to see how it is relevant to the question at hand.

The same technique referring to the actual question has already been user to clearly show several is defined as "all" this is as much a tangent as the stupidy of what if i onky have 10 dice.

The hypothetical is not a puzzle. It is constructed identical to the fast rolling rule, it parses exactly the same. So, how many graduates have to sign the form?

You have the bit in bold backwards. Several does not refer to all, all refers to several.

The rule states you can fast roll several (i.e more than one) attacks if they match a criteria, agreed?

As the player we have our total pool of attacks. These are all the attacks that a unit is making.

From this pool we select several attacks we want to fast roll which have the same BS or WS as per "In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack)."

From this moment on, everything is referring to the smaller pool of attacks we have selected which have matching WS/BS.

Now we move onto the next sentence and check if our pool of several attacks all have the same strength, AP and damage characteristics and are aimed at the same target as each other as per "They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit."

So, in this sentence "they" is referring to our pool of several attacks with the same WS/BS and not the total pool, agreed? As if it is referring to the total pool and that pool contains attacks with different WS/BS values, we can never fast roll as these conditions are in addition to the WS/BS condition.

Now, if the previous condition is met, we roll all of the to hit rolls at the same time, then all of to wound rolls at the same time as per "If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls." Here "all" refers to the attacks in the pool of several attacks which meet all the previous conditions (WS/BS, Strength, AP, damage, target). If "all" does not refer to the smaller pool but rather the total pool of attacks, then you can never fast roll unless every attack in the total pool has the same WS/BS, Strength, Damage, AP and target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Except you can not and have not shown proof in the rules for the underlined above. There is no allowance to only roll some of the attacks that have the same BS/Str etc...

There literally is:

However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together.
In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

We have permission to roll for several (more than one) attacks at once, with conditions that of those several they must all be the same WS/BS, Strength, AP, Damage and target. There is no restriction in the rules which says that when selecting several you must select all of the possible selections.

Here's another question:
Are you allowed to have a model not shoot with a weapon in the shooting phase if the unit it is part of is selected to shoot? Because the rules do not give permission to not shoot with a model.

@ a town called mallus

The rule states you can fast roll several (i.e more than one) attacks if they match a criteria, agreed?

No it explicitly doesn't

It says "in order to"

They are not the same

If it said "you can" that would be permisive

I mean feel free to provide a quote with the phrase "you can" in it and everyone who can read will stop arguing because you will have an argument. However you can't because their isn't one and so you have no case. As your entire argument is predicated on that one point and if its not true your flat wrong.



Kudos for providing a rules quote litterally proving you wrong as it does not give you permission its an interesting technique.

Stating we have permission after proving you don't is lol

What the rules quote shows is not permission but a requirement

In order to - not you can

There is a preexisting YMDC thread answering your other question its irrelevant to this question i think it was to do with the one shot missiles and by RAW you have to fire them but RAI not everyone agreed.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


You have the bit in bold backwards. Several does not refer to all, all refers to several.

The rule states you can fast roll several (i.e more than one) attacks if they match a criteria, agreed?

No, the rule states you can make all of the hit rolls at the same time if they match a criteria.

"However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."

this line: "However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together." sets the context for the rule. it states "by rolling the dice" not by rolling some of the dice.

If it said some of the dice, you would be correct, but it does not. It says "the dice" which means all of the dice that have the same BS/Str etc.

Then it goes on to give you the qualifications for rolling the dice for similar attacks.

Bottom line is that you need to "make all of the hit rolls at the same time"

If you try to make 5 hit rolls for 10 bolters, that meet the criteria, then you have broken a rule.

Basically "the dice for similar attacks" is what they are referring to when they say "In order to make several attacks at once" the several attacks are the similar attacks previously mentioned.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Here's another question:
Are you allowed to have a model not shoot with a weapon in the shooting phase if the unit it is part of is selected to shoot? Because the rules do not give permission to not shoot with a model.

This is clear in the rules that every model in the unit needs to shoot with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with, but this is not relevant to the discussion.

40k Battle Primer P.5 wrote:Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with.

So "the" means "all" now? So when I head to the store to buy groceries, I have to go to all of them?

And, as before, "all", in the context of this rule, only refers to all the attacks you've chosen to fast-roll.

It also bears mentioning that, if you ARE correct, then any attack that has the ability to generate additional attacks ot hits would never be able to be fast-rolled. Since you'd be unable to make the additional attacks/hits "at the same time" as the initiating attacks.

Since you're so keen on rule quotes, I'd be ecstatic to see a quote that actually states you must roll all of them. Cuz I got the feeling this is less about RAW and more about you "being right". Kinda seems like you're grasping at straws at this point.

And we're done here.