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So.. I'm an eldar player, and at my local club the bane of my life is the Vindicare Assassin.

I've been trying to come up with ways to combat them and it's tricky.. My opponents sit them at the back of the table up in a building and snipe\delete a character a turn from across the board. I can try to work round them but it can really limit my options depending on scenery placement.

I've decided to include Illic Nightspear and some rangers to try and out snipe him. If I go first I might just take him down in 1 round, but if my opponent gets the first turn he'll probably just snipe Illic off the table before he gets a shot off.

It's the Vindicare's 'always hits on a 2 if he hasn't moved' rule that makes him so difficult to counter.

But, I've had an idea... One I think any pointy eared space elf would be proud of.

Illic is a ranger, he's got the 'Ranger' keyword. I think that means I can play the 'Pathfinders' stratagem on him as he'll also be Alaitoc:

"PATHFINDERS"
Alaitoc Stratagem
Some Alaitoc Rangers lose themselves to their lifestyle and
become Pathfinders. Supernaturally adept at concealment, they
are near-invisible assassins.
Use this Stratagem at the start of an enemy Shooting
phase. Pick an ALAITOC RANGER unit from your army
that is in cover. Attacks that target that unit in this phase
will only hit on rolls of a 6, irrespective of any modifiers.

My understanding is that an 'active' affect (one that you pay CP for) overrides a passive ability\rule.

What do you think? Can I drop this in Illic if I don't get first turn\don't kill the Vindicare in the first turn to override the Vindicare's 'always hits on a 2' rule and give Illic a chance of getting some shots off?

There isn't a specific citation in the rules to override this, but there are two rules interpretation conventions we can use:

Try to satisfy all rules.
By this convention, it only hits on a 6 because that is the only circumstance in which both rules allow it to hit.

Specific trumps general.
By this convention the more specific rule of a stratagem being played overrides the more general rule on the Vindicare datasheet.

By both standards, I would agree this works.

Always trumps Sometimes. Vindy wins because Always is never not in effect.

I am likely wrong here, but that wouldn't be my first mistake. This is just where I would go. But others say Strats trump Passives....I dunno.

Once again, check the FAQs before asking

Q: If a model whose attacks always hit on a specific roll (such as
a Vindicare Assassin or Dark Reaper’s ranged attacks) targets
a unit that can only be hit on a specific roll (such as a unit
under the effects of the Pathfinders Stratagem), which rule takes
precedent – the attacking model’s or the target unit’s?
A: The attacking model’s ability takes precedence.

This is from the BRB update 1.4, which was released 4 month ago. FAQs are an important part of the game, read them.

 p5freak wrote:
Once again, check the FAQs before asking

Q: If a model whose attacks always hit on a specific roll (such as
a Vindicare Assassin or Dark Reaper’s ranged attacks) targets
a unit that can only be hit on a specific roll (such as a unit
under the effects of the Pathfinders Stratagem), which rule takes
precedent – the attacking model’s or the target unit’s?
A: The attacking model’s ability takes precedence.

This is from the BRB update 1.4, which was released 4 month ago. FAQs are an important part of the game, read them.

Easier said than done, there's s lot of documents to check and they're often not in the most intuitive place.

You are right though, this FAQ is clear.

Disregard the below, I've just seen the FAQ reference.

Thank you!


Thank you for the replies.

Obviously I'm (massively) biased, but to me Stux's reply makes perfect sense.

'Active vs passive', 'satisfy all rules' and 'specific vs general' all sound like they swing in favor of this working to me.

With regards to 'Always trumps sometimes', doesn't that open up a can of worms?.

The rules say that when firing overwatch you hit on a 6, but Dire Avengers hit on a 5 or 6.

Copy and paste straight from the 40k rule book regarding over watch, note the use of the word 'always':

"Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll,"

Copy and paste from the Eldar codex regarding Dire Avengers and firing over watch, notice the lack of the word 'always':

"Defence Tactics: When models in this unit fire
Overwatch, they successfully hit on a roll of 5 or 6,
instead of only 6."

If 'always trumps sometimes' then Dire Avengers don't hit when shooting over watch on a 5 or 6, the general rule overrides this and they hit on a 6. That's plainly wrong, so I think we can safely discount 'Always beats sometimes', meaning we are just left with 3 ways of assesing this and it passes all 3.

 Stux wrote:

Easier said than done, there's s lot of documents to check and they're often not in the most intuitive place.

You are right though, this FAQ is clear.

Its very easy. Every PDF software has a search function.

Lythos,

Another option can be to hide your characters. A fun way to do this is to put your character behind something like a Wave Serpent. If the Vindicare can't see you, he can't shoot you. Another option is to carry your characters in transports too. Vindicares are pretty good, but when shooting at non-characters, their damage potential to your army plummets.

As a GSC player, I live and die by my characters, and recently played against an army using 3 Vindicares. By simply keeping my characters out of line of sight (carefully), I denied them from ever being very effective, my opponent drained his CP by using the Shieldbreaker stratagem against my monsters, and then by the time he could see the characters, his army was dead.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Easier said than done, there's s lot of documents to check and they're often not in the most intuitive place.

You are right though, this FAQ is clear.

Its very easy. Every PDF software has a search function.

Yes but it's easy to miss a document when you're checking all the ones it might possibly be in. There's 5 or 6 different PDFs a ruling on this could reasonably have been in.

Not to mention that the unit's current datasheet was only available in an old issue of White Dwarf.

Yes but it's easy to miss a document when you're checking all the ones it might possibly be in. There's 5 or 6 different PDFs a ruling on this could reasonably have been in.

Not to mention that the unit's current datasheet was only available in an old issue of White Dwarf.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 20:16:18

I've been looking at the community site (https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/) for the last 5 minutes and I haven't found it yet....

Another option can be to hide your characters. A fun way to do this is to put your character behind something like a Wave Serpent. If the Vindicare can't see you, he can't shoot you. Another option is to carry your characters in transports too. Vindicares are pretty good, but when shooting at non-characters, their damage potential to your army plummets.

As a GSC player, I live and die by my characters, and recently played against an army using 3 Vindicares. By simply keeping my characters out of line of sight (carefully), I denied them from ever being very effective, my opponent drained his CP by using the Shieldbreaker stratagem against my monsters, and then by the time he could see the characters, his army was dead.

I've been doing that kind of thing, but it's annoying :-)

I think I'll try setting up Illic, 5x rangers and an autarch (for the re-roll 1's) in range but out of sight, then move Illic out, shoot with him and the rangers, then fire and fade Illic back out of LOS.

Not ideal but not terrible. Then when they (hopefully) down the Vindicare they can snipe other stuff.

 p5freak wrote:
This is from the BRB update 1.4, which was released 4 month ago. FAQs are an important part of the game, read them.

I presume you mean version 1.5 which was released on May 29th. It was added in version 1.4 last September.

 Ghaz wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
This is from the BRB update 1.4, which was released 4 month ago. FAQs are an important part of the game, read them.

I presume you mean version 1.5 which was released on May 29th. It was added in version 1.4 last September.

You got that wrong. V1.4 was released april 2019, 1.3 was september 2018. V1.5 is the latest version, released may 2019.

And Google says "https://www.warhammer-community.com › wp-content › uploads › 2018/09". for version 1.4 and "https://www.warhammer-community.com › wp-content › uploads › 2019/04" for version 1.5. Regardless, version 1.4 is out of date.

1. Hide your characters from TLOS.
2. Kill the rest of the army - vindicare can only kill so many models a turn.
3. Bring non-LOS artillery to bombard it. Vindicare can't kill vehicles as efficiently.
4. Bring other high priority targets.
5. Don't put all your eggs in HQ basket.

Bringing assassins have a high opportunity cost (usage of detachment, CP expenditure, in case of recent SM codex, no full angels of death abilities). Use it to your advantage instead of trying to hard counter an assassin.

 skchsan wrote:
1. Hide your characters from TLOS.
2. Kill the rest of the army - vindicare can only kill so many models a turn.
3. Bring non-LOS artillery to bombard it. Vindicare can't kill vehicles as efficiently.
4. Bring other high priority targets.
5. Don't put all your eggs in HQ basket.

Bringing assassins have a high opportunity cost (usage of detachment, CP expenditure, in case of recent SM codex, no full angels of death abilities). Use it to your advantage instead of trying to hard counter an assassin.

for point 3), that won't work unless your opponent places the assassin wrong, seeing how they've got the character keyword

 skchsan wrote:
1. Hide your characters from TLOS.
2. Kill the rest of the army - vindicare can only kill so many models a turn.
3. Bring non-LOS artillery to bombard it. Vindicare can't kill vehicles as efficiently.
4. Bring other high priority targets.
5. Don't put all your eggs in HQ basket.

Bringing assassins have a high opportunity cost (usage of detachment, CP expenditure, in case of recent SM codex, no full angels of death abilities). Use it to your advantage instead of trying to hard counter an assassin.

Vindicare player here. I don't know what army he brings on the table with the Vindicare but me, I play him with SM and 2 Eliminators squads. Eliminator don't care of the LOS.

The best tactics again Vindicare is you really want to kill him is to go fast and up to close (banshees or bike). If you dont kill him, you tar pit him.

I've had good luck with dropping in units with Heavy Flamers on him. Or Hurricane bolters. Also Psychers. I mean, anything that does mortal wounds. It's not hard to get around a unit that is immune to basic attacks.

When opponents have targeted mine, they have used Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers, a Night Spinner, and once a Wraithlord. Every army has a solution to taking out a single hard to kill model.

With regards to who hits on what, isn't it just a case of sequencing? two rules take place at the same time, so the turn player (This would be the Vindicare player) chooses precedence, so he would apply your rule first, but then his rule is then applied which effectively negates yours as his modifier was applied last?

Tristanleo wrote:
With regards to who hits on what, isn't it just a case of sequencing? two rules take place at the same time, so the turn player (This would be the Vindicare player) chooses precedence, so he would apply your rule first, but then his rule is then applied which effectively negates yours as his modifier was applied last?

No, because if it was a sequencing thing both rules would still be in effect. They are both continuous effects and so continue to apply.

And in this instance all of that is moot anyway, as there's an FAQ that specifically says the Attacking ability overrides the Defending ability.

 Stux wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
With regards to who hits on what, isn't it just a case of sequencing? two rules take place at the same time, so the turn player (This would be the Vindicare player) chooses precedence, so he would apply your rule first, but then his rule is then applied which effectively negates yours as his modifier was applied last?

No, because if it was a sequencing thing both rules would still be in effect. They are both continuous effects and so continue to apply.

And in this instance all of that is moot anyway, as there's an FAQ that specifically says the Attacking ability overrides the Defending ability.

That's the point of what i'm trying to make by mentioning priorites and how this answer has been achieved. in normal gameplay, the player whose turn it is decides priorities when two rules conflict. Controlling player dictates priorities so the controlling player is always going to favour their own over their opponents. In this case, this has just been clarified to a straight "Attacker wins" scenario to ease debate.

Tristanleo wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
With regards to who hits on what, isn't it just a case of sequencing? two rules take place at the same time, so the turn player (This would be the Vindicare player) chooses precedence, so he would apply your rule first, but then his rule is then applied which effectively negates yours as his modifier was applied last?

No, because if it was a sequencing thing both rules would still be in effect. They are both continuous effects and so continue to apply.

And in this instance all of that is moot anyway, as there's an FAQ that specifically says the Attacking ability overrides the Defending ability.

That's the point of what i'm trying to make by mentioning priorites and how this answer has been achieved. in normal gameplay, the player whose turn it is decides priorities when two rules conflict. Controlling player dictates priorities so the controlling player is always going to favour their own over their opponents. In this case, this has just been clarified to a straight "Attacker wins" scenario to ease debate.

I disagree with that interpretation. Sequencing allows you to choose the order effects apply, but for continuous effects the order is irrelevant - unless something happens the moment the effect is applied of course.

 Stux wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
With regards to who hits on what, isn't it just a case of sequencing? two rules take place at the same time, so the turn player (This would be the Vindicare player) chooses precedence, so he would apply your rule first, but then his rule is then applied which effectively negates yours as his modifier was applied last?

No, because if it was a sequencing thing both rules would still be in effect. They are both continuous effects and so continue to apply.

And in this instance all of that is moot anyway, as there's an FAQ that specifically says the Attacking ability overrides the Defending ability.

That's the point of what i'm trying to make by mentioning priorites and how this answer has been achieved. in normal gameplay, the player whose turn it is decides priorities when two rules conflict. Controlling player dictates priorities so the controlling player is always going to favour their own over their opponents. In this case, this has just been clarified to a straight "Attacker wins" scenario to ease debate.

I disagree with that interpretation. Sequencing allows you to choose the order effects apply, but for continuous effects the order is irrelevant - unless something happens the moment the effect is applied of course.

But it isn't a continuous effect as it doesn't apply during every stage of the game, each rule only applies when the unit is firing, or being fired upon which is their triggering condition which brings up the rules conflict as both attempt to resolve simultaneously, leading to application of priorities in order to resolve the conflict (Pathfinder stratagem is applied so it only hit's on sixes, then the Vindicare rule imposes a new condition that he always hits on 2+ if he didn't move, superseding the previous condition).

 Stux wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
With regards to who hits on what, isn't it just a case of sequencing? two rules take place at the same time, so the turn player (This would be the Vindicare player) chooses precedence, so he would apply your rule first, but then his rule is then applied which effectively negates yours as his modifier was applied last?

No, because if it was a sequencing thing both rules would still be in effect. They are both continuous effects and so continue to apply.

And in this instance all of that is moot anyway, as there's an FAQ that specifically says the Attacking ability overrides the Defending ability.

That's the point of what i'm trying to make by mentioning priorites and how this answer has been achieved. in normal gameplay, the player whose turn it is decides priorities when two rules conflict. Controlling player dictates priorities so the controlling player is always going to favour their own over their opponents. In this case, this has just been clarified to a straight "Attacker wins" scenario to ease debate.

I disagree with that interpretation. Sequencing allows you to choose the order effects apply, but for continuous effects the order is irrelevant - unless something happens the moment the effect is applied of course.

Not to mention the FAQ talks as though continuous effects not being effected by sequencing rules. Attackers ability trumps according to it. Its in the faq. If the FAQ talks as though continuous effects are not the same as instantaneous ones, I think it clear that even other ones not directly mentioned in the FAQ must not as well.

It is a continuous effect - the Vindicare and Iilic always have their respective abilities. It's passive, not active. A stratagem is active. An ability that says 'you may' is active. Something that happens in response to an event is also affected by sequencing, but that isn't what these abilities do. They are not reactions, they are passive and continuous.

Right, hence the FAQ and attackers ability trumps.

So then what happens if a Vindi targets a Culexus?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So then what happens if a Vindi targets a Culexus?

If he doesnt move? He hits on a 2. If he moves? He cant hit it.