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So the RF variant is fine, but the Assualt and Heavy variant a more than lack luster.
Bolt Rifles got their fix, so why not Plasma Incinerators?

Assault variant is an easy fix - make it Assault 3 just like the ABR.

The Heavy variant is a bit more tricky. We could do one of 2 things:
A) Bump the Damage so that it's S8, AP-4 D2 or Supercharged for S9, AP-4 D3
or B) keep the Damage as-is, but make both firing modes Heavy d3 (a la Plasma Cannons) so they feel like "proper" heavy weapons

Thoughts?

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Here's a fun solution: Stop making pointless weapon profiles that no one will ever use.

There is no need for 3 different plasmas in my opinion. A heavy one that has high strength and still does crap damage, with low shots, is good for what?

An assault one I can kinda see, if it wasn't completely outclassed by the RF version.

If you made a heavy plasma rifle, that was intended for heavy targets:

1 heavy shot S8/9 AP4 3 Damage. Done. Then it would be useless for anything under a heavy vehicle. The overcharge version would just be for strength.

They shouldn't be AP-4. Why is everyone elses plasma AP-3 but the super super marines get something better than what the tau or Eldar have?

#squatthesnowflakemarines

 Togusa wrote:
They shouldn't be AP-4. Why is everyone elses plasma AP-3 but the super super marines get something better than what the tau or Eldar have?

#squatthesnowflakemarines

Cry harder

i actually do think that hellblaster incinerator weapons should be tweaked.

Incinerator 30" RF 1 Str 7 AP-3, 1 dmg
Overcharge 30" RF 1 Str 8 AP-3 2 dmg
Assault 24" Assault 3 Str 6 AP-3 1 dmg
Assault Overcharge 24" Assault 3 Str 7 AP-3 2dmg
Heavy 36" Heavy 1 Str 8 AP-4 1dmg
Heavy Overcharge 36" Heavy d3 Str 9 AP-4 2dmg

I'd prefer the incinerators to be ap-3 if it means a point reduction. As it stands you can get incinerators to ap- 5 which is a bit much

The heavy variant needs to be Damage 2/3 or D3 shots.

Assault 3 S6 ap-4 1 seems like a bit much to me.

Why can't we just have Primaris Heavy Weapons marines who are actually flexible in the same way that Devestators are?
Keep the fact that they all have to have the same weapon, but instead of three types of Plasma, give us an anti-infantry gun, a missile launcher type, a big anti-tank cannon, and the basic Plasma we know and love.

Actually I think they should have Primaris stuck with a low number of weapon options so the original marines DON'T become totally obsolete!

Eh make them overcharge Heavy D3 Str 8 ap -4 D2, uncharged as it is. I think that'd be fine especially once you lay on the buffs.

 Togusa wrote:
They shouldn't be AP-4. Why is everyone elses plasma AP-3 but the super super marines get something better than what the tau or Eldar have?

#squatthesnowflakemarines

Doesn't matter much with all the invulns.

Martel732 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
They shouldn't be AP-4. Why is everyone elses plasma AP-3 but the super super marines get something better than what the tau or Eldar have?

#squatthesnowflakemarines

Doesn't matter much with all the invulns.

thats exactly the problem with high ap weapons being all over the place, it makes units with no invulns unplayable (land raider, predators and most non-elves flyers for example)

I kinda agree with Fezzik that there just shouldn't be 3 different variants of Plasma. It makes sense for Bolt Rifles, but plasma not so much, but since the models have the bits to make 3 different guns, my proposals adhere to the assumption that there will always be 3 different gun options.

I also agree with Togusa that they shouldn't be AP-4, partly because that makes them better than Xenos plasma, but also because it's not very efficient and becomes AP-5 with Combat Doctrines

So here is an updated proposal:

Assault__ Assault 3 S6, AP-3 D1 Supercharge - D2 (so no S bump)

Rapid Fire__ RF1 S7 AP-3 D1 Supercharge - S8 D2

Heavy__ Heavy 1 S8 AP-4 D2 Supercharge - Heavy d3 D3 (so again no S bump, but you get more shots and damage)

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So....(Puts on flame retardant shield suit)

I think ALL plasma should be Gets Hot or bust. Make Melta the safe Anti-tank weapon, and Plasma should be dangerous but deadly.

If they would just modify marine plasma to do 1 MW on a natural 1 to hit it would go a long way towards making these weapons better.

I'm with you on the AP -4. I'd like a range boost on the Heavy (48", maybe just on the overcharge profile?).

Not sure I'm with you on the lack of S bump on the assault versions. Makes them have a very limited range of targets they effectively engage.

Or just stop releasing ridiculous things like knights into 40k that's constantly causing unnecessary power creep that's necessitating this. They've created a proper platform for such monstrosity - just port them to apoc only or 40k games with 4k points or higher. 4 knight list is pretty stupid anyways.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
They shouldn't be AP-4. Why is everyone elses plasma AP-3 but the super super marines get something better than what the tau or Eldar have?

#squatthesnowflakemarines

Doesn't matter much with all the invulns.

thats exactly the problem with high ap weapons being all over the place, it makes units with no invulns unplayable (land raider, predators and most non-elves flyers for example)

That's not the problem with the Land Raider and you people should know this by now.

The heavy version should just be like galef has said above. Bump base damage by 1. Then it becomes a real option. The assault version is fine actually - the issue is too much -1 to hits make practically all these weapons useless to start with.

Overcharging slaying risk should not increase with -1 to hits - period. Plus it should not have any chance of doing more than 1 wound. Period. For these weapons to be considered viable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
They shouldn't be AP-4. Why is everyone elses plasma AP-3 but the super super marines get something better than what the tau or Eldar have?

#squatthesnowflakemarines

Doesn't matter much with all the invulns.

They sure price it like it matters.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So....(Puts on flame retardant shield suit)

I think ALL plasma should be Gets Hot or bust. Make Melta the safe Anti-tank weapon, and Plasma should be dangerous but deadly.

But melta isn't anti-anything. It sucks at its job.

Martel732 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So....(Puts on flame retardant shield suit)

I think ALL plasma should be Gets Hot or bust. Make Melta the safe Anti-tank weapon, and Plasma should be dangerous but deadly.

But melta isn't anti-anything. It sucks at its job.

Correction: it's just point sink. If melta was simply bumped up to AP-5 (and turned into 'you're gonna need invul against this weapon' weapon) people may bat an eye at it.

If Melta was a Straight 4 damage people would give it respect. The kind of respect that says even my guardsman can threaten your compensation walker.

Man, Tempestus Melta squads would be sheer murder.

Anything better than AP-2 doesn't matter, because almost everything has an inv of 5 or 4+.

IMO, making three variants of the same gun was a mistake. Just pick one and just let players pick the model they like the look of most. Same goes for intercessors.

You know, I was just getting used to the idea that my very first Plasma Cannon (BT) fully painted marine was able to fire the darn thing and not die on the first shot.
It was uncanny how often I could roll a 1 for him.
It IS nice to make risking death a choice (other than choosing to use the weapon).

I agree that the main issue we see is similar to automotive companies: why make product that competes with other similar product put out by the same company?

I stated off with the rapid fire weapons, they DO have great utility.
I think I was leaning toward the heavier guns for their extended reach.
The only reason I can consider them is due to the Ultra-marine ability to treat heavy weapons like I had not moved (If I go completely blue), the +1 to strength of the weapon makes things interesting as well.
Mind-you with rapid-fire we would in the end have a similar number of dice for shooting happen prior to being forced into melee.

With 8th I agree with many above where less hits and more damage is specifically monster/tank hunters and more hits / less damage for troop room-broom work so there is a bit of variety and the "right tool for the right job".

Personally, I think making the overcharge boost both the Strength and Damage was a mistake and it smells like one that came down from the marketing department in order to move models. Overcharging should only have upped the strength for the RF gun, so that it can still wound most infantry on 2's as well as do chip damage to vehicles. I'd change the prifiles as follows,
Rifle-30"/S7/Ap-3/D1
OC Rifle-30"/S8/Ap-3/D1
Assault-Assault2/24"/S6/Ap-3/D1
OC Assault-Assault 3/24"/S6/Ap-3/D1
Heavy-Heavy 1/36"/S8/Ap-3/Damage D3
OC Heavy/Heavy 1/36"/S8/Ap-3/A successful wound deals D3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage.

Djangomatic82 wrote:
Personally, I think making the overcharge boost both the Strength and Damage was a mistake and it smells like one that came down from the marketing department in order to move models. Overcharging should only have upped the strength for the RF gun, so that it can still wound most infantry on 2's as well as do chip damage to vehicles. I'd change the prifiles as follows,
Rifle-30"/S7/Ap-3/D1
OC Rifle-30"/S8/Ap-3/D1
Assault-Assault2/24"/S6/Ap-3/D1
OC Assault-Assault 3/24"/S6/Ap-3/D1
Heavy-Heavy 1/36"/S8/Ap-3/Damage D3
OC Heavy/Heavy 1/36"/S8/Ap-3/A successful wound deals D3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage.

I kinda like this. A bit harder to remember but each type gets a thematic boost.

Melta forces invulns to reroll would be nice.

There are some nice options here. I would prefer not to make the assault 3 shots at base, 24 inches for two shots plus unpenalized movement is loads of board control. Three chances of rolling a 1 is a fine tradeoff considering how hard it is to roll a 1 in an army of rerolls.

Agreed with many of the above. Plasma having S8 charged but only D1 (and provide this treatment to a few other things like dissies perhaps) lets them keep the role of marine+ buster but not take the anti-tank slot by volume. Melta/fusion at half range is a nice mechanic but 2d3 or just D4 would be so much better for the game imo, maybe reduce invuln saves under half range instead.

The only reason I'm suggesting Assault 3 is the same reason I suggested Auto BRs to be 3 shots more weeks before it happened. The Rapid fire variant can get 2 shots often enough that having worse stats makes the Assault variant pointless.

But I could see the Supercharge giving 3 shots.

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 Galef wrote:
The only reason I'm suggesting Assault 3 is the same reason I suggested Auto BRs to be 3 shots more weeks before it happened. The Rapid fire variant can get 2 shots often enough that having worse stats makes the Assault variant pointless.

But I could see the Supercharge giving 3 shots.

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Congrats on the accurate prediction, I think bolter discipline factors into that pretty strongly though. BD was needed to bring marines as a base into their point costs minimum worthwhile damage output, plasma has it's own cost which has already been reduced despite being quite well liked. With plasma not having a BD rule to make RF all but strictly better than assault the same change won't be as necessary.

As an aside, I wonder if plasma culverins could become worthwhile with the same change. I think it would require a switch to natural 1 rather than adjusted 1 otherwise the poor skitarii will just fry themsleves. I always thought most things were RF 24 or A18 so that the first turn player wouldn't be able to shoot at full strength but primaris don't care as much.

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The only reason I'm suggesting Assault 3 is the same reason I suggested Auto BRs to be 3 shots more weeks before it happened. The Rapid fire variant can get 2 shots often enough that having worse stats makes the Assault variant pointless.

But I could see the Supercharge giving 3 shots.

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Congrats on the accurate prediction, I think bolter discipline factors into that pretty strongly though. BD was needed to bring marines as a base into their point costs minimum worthwhile damage output, plasma has it's own cost which has already been reduced despite being quite well liked. With plasma not having a BD rule to make RF all but strictly better than assault the same change won't be as necessary.

As an aside, I wonder if plasma culverins could become worthwhile with the same change. I think it would require a switch to natural 1 rather than adjusted 1 otherwise the poor skitarii will just fry themsleves. I always thought most things were RF 24 or A18 so that the first turn player wouldn't be able to shoot at full strength but primaris don't care as much.

I agree BD did indeed play into why Assault 2 ABRs were sup-par. But even without BD, RF Plasma incinerators get 2 shots at 15", so there should not be THAT many situations in which you aren't going to get 2 shots. And now that Impulsors exist, there REALLY shouldn't be any reason not to be getting 2 shots with RF all the time.

But how about this. Instead of following the pattern for shots & damage from BRs, why not make all 3 Variant be the same Str. After all, Plasma Pistols aren't S6/7 and Plasma Cannons aren't S8/9, so why are these new variants?

Assault 2 S7 AP-3 D1 - Supercharge for S8/D2, maybe 12ppm
RF as-is (but AP-3)
Heavy 1 S7 AP-4 D2 - Supercharge for S8/D3, 15ppm

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