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I have been converting some Skorpius Distintegrators from Rhinos and Disintegrator parts. They are virtually identical in width and height. However, one noticeable difference is that Rhinos are tracked, whereas Duneriders are 20th century hovercraft. This means there are gaps between the tracks at the bottom that you could see through.

I have two questions:
1) Can a player draw LOS through the gaps of the tracks? What about things like cockpit glass?
2) Would it be considered MFA or MFD if I allow these gaps to remain? I am considering just cutting a strip of plasticard and blocking it out.

You can not draw LOS through something solid, even if you can see through it. So gaps in the track are OK, but cockpit glass is not.

 alextroy wrote:
You can not draw LOS through something solid, even if you can see through it. So gaps in the track are OK, but cockpit glass is not.

The above is actually false.

If a enemy model is visible through cockpit glass, it can still be targeted as per RAW.

40K battle Primer P.5 wrote:In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model. If unsure, stoop down and get a look from behind the shooting model to see if any part of the target is visible. For the purposes of determining visibility, a model can see through other models in its own unit.

This confirms that an enemy model is a valid target if the enemy model is "visible to the shooting model" If that goes through the cockpit glass, and is still visible, then it still is a valid target.

 DeathReaper wrote:


This confirms that an enemy model is a valid target if the enemy model is "visible to the shooting model" If that goes through the cockpit glass, and is still visible, then it still is a valid target.

Only if that cockpit glass is on a model in the same unit. Otherwise you can't draw a Line of Sight through another unit.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I have been converting some Skorpius Distintegrators from Rhinos and Disintegrator parts. They are virtually identical in width and height. However, one noticeable difference is that Rhinos are tracked, whereas Duneriders are 20th century hovercraft. This means there are gaps between the tracks at the bottom that you could see through.

I have two questions:
1) Can a player draw LOS through the gaps of the tracks? What about things like cockpit glass?
2) Would it be considered MFA or MFD if I allow these gaps to remain? I am considering just cutting a strip of plasticard and blocking it out.

Even Rhino tracks cover only from sides. From front/rear you can see on the other side just fine. The gap below might not be big but it's there.

And as for 2...are you gaining advantage by modifying your model? That answers it.

GW made 40k los blocking real hard.

Well, my thinking was to try to make the profile as close to that of the stock Skorpius as possible. So a big brick.

But you bring up a good point about the front-back LOS. Sigh, I am thinking I might need to just remove the tracks now. That or just accept that people can see what is behind the tank, even though you cannot with the original profile. Plus side is that I can draw LOS from the other side too, but I sort of do not want that advantage.

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This confirms that an enemy model is a valid target if the enemy model is "visible to the shooting model" If that goes through the cockpit glass, and is still visible, then it still is a valid target.

Only if that cockpit glass is on a model in the same unit. Otherwise you can't draw a Line of Sight through another unit.

The rules only care about the target unit being visible though as I quoted in my previous post.

That model being in the same unit literally has no bearing if you can see the target unit through the cockpit glass as per the rules I linked earlier.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This confirms that an enemy model is a valid target if the enemy model is "visible to the shooting model" If that goes through the cockpit glass, and is still visible, then it still is a valid target.

Only if that cockpit glass is on a model in the same unit. Otherwise you can't draw a Line of Sight through another unit.

The rules only care about the target unit being visible though as I quoted in my previous post.

That model being in the same unit literally has no bearing if you can see the target unit through the cockpit glass as per the rules I linked earlier.

RAW this is correct.

I think it would be a perfectly reasonable house rule to not allow cockpit glass to be shot through. However, has anyone ever had an actual in game situation where you could only see an enemy model by drawing line of sight through a cockpit? I feel this is probably a non-issue.

Agreed, an Internet-only problem. HIWPI is that the canopy doesn’t permit LOS - reasoning being that the rules are colloquially written, and they probably didn’t intend shooting through stuff - visible was just simple shorthand. (Note HIWPI writ large, before anyone leaps in with their RAWsword)

Also FWIW, the common interpretation of “For the purposes of determining visibility, a model can see through other models in its own unit“ is usually that the inverse is inferred, I.e. you can’t see through models in other units. That would include canopies.

Let the 7-page thread rage now however...

 Stux wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This confirms that an enemy model is a valid target if the enemy model is "visible to the shooting model" If that goes through the cockpit glass, and is still visible, then it still is a valid target.

Only if that cockpit glass is on a model in the same unit. Otherwise you can't draw a Line of Sight through another unit.

The rules only care about the target unit being visible though as I quoted in my previous post.

That model being in the same unit literally has no bearing if you can see the target unit through the cockpit glass as per the rules I linked earlier.

RAW this is correct.

I think it would be a perfectly reasonable house rule to not allow cockpit glass to be shot through. However, has anyone ever had an actual in game situation where you could only see an enemy model by drawing line of sight through a cockpit? I feel this is probably a non-issue.

I was in a game last week where we debated on whether or not the base of the fancy objective marker (more like a pretty piece of terrain that 'counted' as an objective marker) blocked line of sight.
We decided that we needed to decide before the game begins in the future. The day of we rolled off on it. But it was just a tiny standard 25mm base (3mm height). So in my experience... could be relevant XD.

Marker is not a model. See FAQ clarification on infestation nodes.

 skchsan wrote:
Marker is not a model. See FAQ clarification on infestation nodes.

But the game uses true line of sight. If you can't see it you can't shoot it, that's what it comes down to. Doesn't matter if it's a model or not.

Only exception would be if there was a rule explicitly overriding true line of sight, but there isn't here.

I would rule that technically the model used for the marker was 'terrain'.

 Stux wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Marker is not a model. See FAQ clarification on infestation nodes.

But the game uses true line of sight. If you can't see it you can't shoot it, that's what it comes down to. Doesn't matter if it's a model or not.

Only exception would be if there was a rule explicitly overriding true line of sight, but there isn't here.

I would rule that technically the model used for the marker was 'terrain'.

It's a non issue in real game play. Would you say if I had an objective marker that is 10 ft tall and 6 ft wide but magically sits on a 28mm base, would you rule that it blocks TLOS?

 skchsan wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Marker is not a model. See FAQ clarification on infestation nodes.

But the game uses true line of sight. If you can't see it you can't shoot it, that's what it comes down to. Doesn't matter if it's a model or not.

Only exception would be if there was a rule explicitly overriding true line of sight, but there isn't here.

I would rule that technically the model used for the marker was 'terrain'.

It's a non issue in real game play. Would you say if I had an objective marker that is 10 ft tall and 6 ft wide but magically sits on a 28mm base, would you rule that it blocks TLOS?

Yes. Obviously. How can we possibly determine line of sight if we said we were ignoring it? Are we constantly moving it on and off the table all the time? That would be ridiculous.

Of course, it wouldn't be the objective marker anyway, it would terrain. And if you tried to rule this massive object wasn't really there that is the point I would pack up my things and find another game.

Infestation nodes are not objective markers. A piece of terrain being used to signify the location of the objective marker could be. Deciding it is not terrain but instead a marking of where the objective is would be yet another situation. In our situation we used fancy chaos barricade thingies and we did not discuss it before hand. Hence the fair and just roll off on it. In fact we could of declared it uses statue or barricade rules if we wanted to. It's all a mater of what you and your opponent agrees on when it comes to terrain and in this case, terrain the marks an objective.

Can I use tinted plastic for my cockpit windows or is that modelling for advantage?

 Type40 wrote:
Infestation nodes are not objective markers. A piece of terrain being used to signify the location of the objective marker could be. Deciding it is not terrain but instead a marking of where the objective is would be yet another situation. In our situation we used fancy chaos barricade thingies and we did not discuss it before hand. Hence the fair and just roll off on it. In fact we could of declared it uses statue or barricade rules if we wanted to. It's all a mater of what you and your opponent agrees on when it comes to terrain and in this case, terrain the marks an objective.

Absolutely, discussing anything before the game that could cause issues is essential to a smooth experience of 40k.

And if you agree something other than what the rules say then that's totally fine too.

 Bilge Rat wrote:
Can I use tinted plastic for my cockpit windows or is that modelling for advantage?

Make it with a reflective material and tell your opponent who's doing this "well you've just drew TLOS to yourself so you have to hit yourself now."

Better yet, give your entire army chrome finish and tell them they can't draw TLOS to your model because that line of sight is now being reflected.

Or, make your models out of material that only persons with good heart can see.

That's a good point. You could incorporate mirrors into your models and use that to shoot around corners!

EDIT: even better - flyers with a mirrored underside!

I have been looking for some mirror coated modeling spray paint for some space wolf decals actually XD (not to shoot around corners but could be fun to briefly troll an opponent and say so XD)

 Stux wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This confirms that an enemy model is a valid target if the enemy model is "visible to the shooting model" If that goes through the cockpit glass, and is still visible, then it still is a valid target.

Only if that cockpit glass is on a model in the same unit. Otherwise you can't draw a Line of Sight through another unit.

The rules only care about the target unit being visible though as I quoted in my previous post.

That model being in the same unit literally has no bearing if you can see the target unit through the cockpit glass as per the rules I linked earlier.

RAW this is correct.

I think it would be a perfectly reasonable house rule to not allow cockpit glass to be shot through. However, has anyone ever had an actual in game situation where you could only see an enemy model by drawing line of sight through a cockpit? I feel this is probably a non-issue.

Not a cockpit but the see through blue plastic on a TAU tidewall.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This confirms that an enemy model is a valid target if the enemy model is "visible to the shooting model" If that goes through the cockpit glass, and is still visible, then it still is a valid target.

Only if that cockpit glass is on a model in the same unit. Otherwise you can't draw a Line of Sight through another unit.

The rules only care about the target unit being visible though as I quoted in my previous post.

That model being in the same unit literally has no bearing if you can see the target unit through the cockpit glass as per the rules I linked earlier.

RAW this is correct.

I think it would be a perfectly reasonable house rule to not allow cockpit glass to be shot through. However, has anyone ever had an actual in game situation where you could only see an enemy model by drawing line of sight through a cockpit? I feel this is probably a non-issue.

Not a cockpit but the see through blue plastic on a TAU tidewall.

Non issue, no one uses Tidewalls

Seriously though, that is a good counterpoint.

Honestly, I don't think shooting through a cockpit is a big deal anyway. Just make sure you're on the same page as your opponent.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
This confirms that an enemy model is a valid target if the enemy model is "visible to the shooting model" If that goes through the cockpit glass, and is still visible, then it still is a valid target.

Only if that cockpit glass is on a model in the same unit. Otherwise you can't draw a Line of Sight through another unit.

The rules only care about the target unit being visible though as I quoted in my previous post.

That model being in the same unit literally has no bearing if you can see the target unit through the cockpit glass as per the rules I linked earlier.

RAW this is correct.

I think it would be a perfectly reasonable house rule to not allow cockpit glass to be shot through. However, has anyone ever had an actual in game situation where you could only see an enemy model by drawing line of sight through a cockpit? I feel this is probably a non-issue.

Not a cockpit but the see through blue plastic on a TAU tidewall.

Other than the squatting model you can see the top of their (fire warriors) helmets & and antennae.

The funny thing is that they answered this in the "Stepping into a new Edition FAQ" but then decided that one doesn't exist instead of rolling into the BRB FAQ

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The funny thing is that they answered this in the "Stepping into a new Edition FAQ" but then decided that one doesn't exist instead of rolling into the BRB FAQ

I sent GW an email a while back in regards to the status of the rulings which were only found in the 'Stepping into a New Edition' document (e.g., the ruling that a transport cannot both embark and disembark units in the same turn). We'll see later this month if we get an answer...

 Bilge Rat wrote:
Can I use tinted plastic for my cockpit windows or is that modelling for advantage?

I saw some flyers that used the Spirit Gem paint, probably the green one - to simulate the glare/reflection effect of sunlight on glass that looked pretty cool, I'm now leaning towards this even more. I'm thinking abou to get one of those spirit gem paints in a gold color like an Astronaut helmet visor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:


Honestly, I don't think shooting through a cockpit is a big deal anyway. Just make sure you're on the same page as your opponent.

I'd imagine people in cockpits feel differently. As would the techmarine who has to fix it after the battle.