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I'm convinced Forge World would sell way more models if all their rules were available for free in PDF format.

Currently, players have to buy a whole-ass book just to get the rules for the one model they think looks badass. Many players, I am sure, end up choosing to buy neither the book nor the model. As a Drukhari player, who has access to only one Forge World model (the Tantalus), I am not going to buy the entire Imperial Armour: Xenos rulebook just on the off-chance that the Tantalus turns out to have rules that I like and a points cost that I deem reasonable. And if I don't have access to the rules and points cost, I'm sure as hell not buying the model, either. I'm willing to spend money, but not to waste it.

The rules being freely available would also make it more acceptable to field Forge World models. A frequent criticism of Forge World models is that they are too niche, and their rules are too little-known; a player can turn up to a battle with a model that his opponent has never seen before, and whose capabilities are unknown to the overwhelming majority of players. Free rules on PDF would somewhat alleviate the "knowledge imbalance" between players willing to shell out a small fortune for obscure rulebooks and players unwilling to do so.

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They've given lots of models updated rules, in a free PDF. So it just makes sense to update the rest of the stuff as well and release it via free PDF.

Well, this is the 21st century. Nobody is buying rules he doesn't know before. There's at least battlescribe and then other internet sources.
So, I don't exactly disagree with the OP that their rules should be free, but I don't think anybody is holding back buying FW because he/she doesn't know the rules.

While i agree that in this day and age rules probably should be free or at least way more accessible through apps especially with the concept of living rules, in the current set up, GW and FW has no reason to do so as FW is considered their premium PLUS line. a luxury on top of a luxury and as such its not for everyone and is not designed to be inclusive to the general market.

they dont care everyone is buying it. its not their main focus.

imho FW doesn't really need to exist anymore considering how much better GW's plastics are getting.

As long as you bake into the price of the models the opportunity cost for rules development, yes.

I think this is why i never buy from forge world. Its also a huge issue i found with running campaigns and such. Can i run this, often was a i have no idea what it is and what it does, can you bring the book. To then be told, well i had not buy them yet.

Happen with a tournament as well, player turn up with a bunch of stuff with weird rules no one was prepared for.
Real salty players when time is limited, and they find out half way though something weird was up. Since no way to look up ahead of time, and the player was open to people to read the rules. But did not turn up for a month before the day.

So i think based on the nature of the products its probably a good idea for a lot of them. Since it really is removing barriers to getting them onto the table in the end.
Just put em all up, and then players can look em up on the phone when someone says, i using some forge world stuff if they need to.

 Desubot wrote:


imho FW doesn't really need to exist anymore considering how much better GW's plastics are getting.

To be fair, FW wasn't just about stuff that couldn't be done in plastic (and there are still things FW makes that cant be done in plastic), it also did stuff the main studio had no interest in or no bandwidth for but for which there was a demand/interest.

That said, GW does appear to be shifting them away from the main lines and having them focus on specialist games instead.

GW and FW are half way there - the AoS rules are up for free.

Sadly there they've got the opposite problem; a lack of new releases and honestly not enough advertising of what they've currently got to help push sales. Plus some oddities in the rules such as certain models not fitting into armies that they'd fit well into - eg the myrewurm is ideal for Idoneth but for some reason its still in destruction with orruks, ogres and goblins.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


imho FW doesn't really need to exist anymore considering how much better GW's plastics are getting.

To be fair, FW wasn't just about stuff that couldn't be done in plastic (and there are still things FW makes that cant be done in plastic), it also did stuff the main studio had no interest in or no bandwidth for but for which there was a demand/interest.

That said, GW does appear to be shifting them away from the main lines and having them focus on specialist games instead.

The issue is partly internal to GW politics, part of it is also historical, FW went off and did passion projects that were not viable for the main studio.

They also tended to build things into a whole cohesive story book in the old Imperial Armours and Horus Heresy Books.

The issue was internally FW went through stages of making the much larger, more managme t intigrated and more costly main studio look bad by being more profitable.

FW has tended to release rules to Beta or Free PDF far more often than the main studio over the years.

While some may be glad they're being separated from main 40k I for one will be sad to see the loss of future FW model's from the key games.

 Desubot wrote:
While i agree that in this day and age rules probably should be free or at least way more accessible through apps especially with the concept of living rules, in the current set up, GW and FW has no reason to do so as FW is considered their premium PLUS line. a luxury on top of a luxury and as such its not for everyone and is not designed to be inclusive to the general market.

they dont care everyone is buying it. its not their main focus.

imho FW doesn't really need to exist anymore considering how much better GW's plastics are getting.

Plastic might be getting better but it still can't do as good details as resin can. And it has it's own limitations. Plastic isn't miraculous be all end all material and GW's plastic fixation has resulted in variety of characters going down and price going up.

tneva82 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
While i agree that in this day and age rules probably should be free or at least way more accessible through apps especially with the concept of living rules, in the current set up, GW and FW has no reason to do so as FW is considered their premium PLUS line. a luxury on top of a luxury and as such its not for everyone and is not designed to be inclusive to the general market.

they dont care everyone is buying it. its not their main focus.

imho FW doesn't really need to exist anymore considering how much better GW's plastics are getting.

Plastic might be getting better but it still can't do as good details as resin can. And it has it's own limitations. Plastic isn't miraculous be all end all material and GW's plastic fixation has resulted in variety of characters going down and price going up.

In my experience this is pretty much flase. Anything GW can do in resin. Could easily be matched by plastic at in many cases it would be superior - except for maybe extremely large models.

GW should reclarify Forgeworld. Right now I’m not buying any Forgeworld as I don’t know if stuff like my Porphyrion is going to end up in the Legend Category. With me being a tourney player, that is killing all my current Forgeworld purchases.

If they came out and said Forgeworld is now just the GW store mail order exclusive, but will be supported in the codex’s as normal… I’d be more interested in it.

ALL rules should be free. It's absurd we have to pay for freaking books when what matters are the models.

 Vector Strike wrote:
ALL rules should be free. It's absurd we have to pay for freaking books when what matters are the models.

And yet there are those who consider the lore and rules superior to the models and would be happy playing with cardboard cutouts.

 Overread wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
ALL rules should be free. It's absurd we have to pay for freaking books when what matters are the models.

And yet there are those who consider the lore and rules superior to the models and would be happy playing with cardboard cutouts.

Tbf, i would just be happy if GW would release baserules and ca for free.

Thing is I figure that some of the codex/battletome money goes into all the fluff. I've seen free rules sets from many companies and they are mostly the same - Rules and nothing else.

They tend to be very light on lore, might not have pictures, might be lacking in world building. GW, for whatever weaknesses in their technical writing and rules, sets out a story well. They establish a theme, a lore. They stuff the books with art and fluff and that makes a story that connects to an army beyond just the stats.

Plus based on the number of people who tend to read BL books and buy them I would wager if GW split lore and rules many wouldn't engage in the lore in even a casual way like they do now.

 skchsan wrote:
As long as you bake into the price of the models the opportunity cost for rules development, yes.

Seems to be working fine for AoS, where you can download all the Warscrolls for free.

 Overread wrote:
Thing is I figure that some of the codex/battletome money goes into all the fluff. I've seen free rules sets from many companies and they are mostly the same - Rules and nothing else.

There's no fluff in the Forge World Indices, it's just rules.

And for what it's worth, paying someone to write up background material is nowhere near as costly as the typesetting, formatting, and editing that goes into any quality publication, be it pure rules or packed to the gills with background. It's less a matter of 'fluff vs no fluff' and more about whether you're talking a professionally-composed book or a Word doc.

 skchsan wrote:
As long as you bake into the price of the models the opportunity cost for rules development, yes.

The cost for rules development must be near 0, because FW rules are terrible. They will probably meet in a pub, drink some beer, and make up some rules.

FW rules are so cheap it's not really an issue. If you can't afford a FW index perhaps you should re-evaluate your position in the hobby.

Free rules are fine, but if they decide to print a book that's entirely up to them. You don't need to own all the rules.

 Ishagu wrote:
FW rules are so cheap it's not really an issue. If you can't afford a FW index perhaps you should re-evaluate your position in the hobby.

Free rules are fine, but if they decide to print a book that's entirely up to them. You don't need to own all the rules.

$40 + postage is not cheep to play a single model. Or even see if i wanted others is not cheap. It ads up fast if you do not want to just throw money away and happen to play different factions that do not line up.
Looking at the website i would need to spend about $140 to cover my entire 4 forge world models.
Or a collection for a extra book i do not need at all.
That is quite expensive for the way GW does it, with the price of codex on top of that, I think the books are more money i have spent on other games alone. Cheap is relative i guess, but Calling the rules cheap is kinda just strange.

There are so many GW armies and units and books that only an hypocrite would say FW rules are niche and difficult to get.
I have NO CLUE what is in Vigilus or what does an Archon does.
Seriously, I never played against maybe half the armies.
FW on the opposite is cheap with only 4 index for the whole range.

 godardc wrote:
There are so many GW armies and units and books that only an hypocrite would say FW rules are niche and difficult to get.
I have NO CLUE what is in Vigilus or what does an Archon does.
Seriously, I never played against maybe half the armies.
FW on the opposite is cheap with only 4 index for the whole range.

GW charges so much for rules for there game, that 4 index at $140 is cheap.

Yes i know that is the aus price

Apple fox wrote:

 godardc wrote:
There are so many GW armies and units and books that only an hypocrite would say FW rules are niche and difficult to get.
I have NO CLUE what is in Vigilus or what does an Archon does.
Seriously, I never played against maybe half the armies.
FW on the opposite is cheap with only 4 index for the whole range.

GW charges so much for rules for there game, that 4 index at $140 is cheap.

Yes i know that is the aus price

Sure, but how much in AUD would you have to pay for all the GW rules?

It's a fair point.

 Stux wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 godardc wrote:
There are so many GW armies and units and books that only an hypocrite would say FW rules are niche and difficult to get.
I have NO CLUE what is in Vigilus or what does an Archon does.
Seriously, I never played against maybe half the armies.
FW on the opposite is cheap with only 4 index for the whole range.

GW charges so much for rules for there game, that 4 index at $140 is cheap.

Yes i know that is the aus price

Sure, but how much in AUD would you have to pay for all the GW rules?

It's a fair point.

A crazy amount. But that was why I said relative, but it’s way easier to read codexes. People have them here more often, shops have store copy’s.
Rather than order international post.
So can see if it’s worth getting any units from a book. And with the more fragmented units, it’s far less useful to have a full book.

It’s a fair point, but it ignores my point.

I honestly am amazed how an Australian scene can exist given how much you guys have to shell out. I guess the eBay selling and buying must be rampant over there.

 Overread wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
ALL rules should be free. It's absurd we have to pay for freaking books when what matters are the models.

And yet there are those who consider the lore and rules superior to the models and would be happy playing with cardboard cutouts.

People have the right to be wrong about stuff.

I honestly am amazed how an Australian scene can exist given how much you guys have to shell out. I guess the eBay selling and buying must be rampant over there.

Could be worse. AuS pay 150% UK price for their stuff right, but they have more or less equal income. Imagine paying 95% UK price, and yes a lot of the polish stuff is cheaper then the price in $ it costs on the GW US site, but you have 1/4th the income. And you still get a a fandom, and people playing the game without using cardboard cut outs. only thing there is more of, is probably resin models, but besides of that GW games as a hobby are doing real nice.

Used to be. You must have forgotten when most of FW was "Experimental Rules".

Which is probably why FW still gets shunned at many a FLGS to this day.

Aren't the rules for all FW models since the publishing of the Indexes been free? The rules for the Metabusting Calladius Grav Tank came out as a free PDF Beta Rules before the newly minted free PDF Rules. In addition to Adeptus Custodes yhere are also free rules for the Forge World Knights, both Imperial and Chaos.

 skchsan wrote:
As long as you bake into the price of the models the opportunity cost for rules development, yes.

I think it's safe to say that if they weren't doing this before, they're easily doing so now with the 30% price hike us bloody yanks got for the privilege of not having to use a currency calculator anymore.

And FW ain't even writing rules anymore. From my understanding it's the same team that does regular 40k rules.

Yeah I could get behind free rules. I mean, I can already pretty much get the rules for free from a variety of sources, but it'd be nice to see it get the Apocalypse treatment so everyone can look them up easily. Especially since FW is more accepted now than it was in previous years.

 p5freak wrote:

The cost for rules development must be near 0, because FW rules are terrible. They will probably meet in a pub, drink some beer, and make up some rules.

Look, beer isn't free, and judging by the quality of rules they have consumed quite a bit of it!