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So I was playing against a very "RAW is god" player in a pickup match yesterday. I had brought my Hammers of Dorn and was looking foreward to trying out the new Imperial fists tactics with the Seige Breaker Cohort.
When I show him my army he claims I can't use Imperial fists rules anymore as my army isn't painted yellow. I must use the inheritors trait, which dosen't allow me to use the cohort, characters , strats ect.

Very well, says I. I then crack open my copy of WD Jan 2019 to show him the crimson fists page.
I declare that these are not Hammers of dorn, but instead they are Golden Hammer ladz. A chapter of unknown lineage.



So it's now a crimson fists detachment. Therefore:



And back to Imperial fists.

Valid? No? What are your thoughts?

RAW the colour painted on the model has no bearing on its rules.

While canonically imperial fists are yellow the chapter tactics section of the rues not specify a colour scheme requirement to select the chapter tactic.

I would request your RAW is god friend to provide any rule specifying a chapter tactic requires a particular colour scheme- he won't be able to.


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the stygies viii or agripinaa admech I run all the time at tournaments are painted in the blue and black destagrad ix scheme and not one tournament has objected

same as my catachan guardsmen being used as cadian's sometimes despite being catachan models

The only place where you will definitely have to play with the rules that match your paint scheme is at events at Warhammer World and (maybe) at the Warhammer Citadel.

 Ghaz wrote:
The only place where you will definitely have to play with the rules that match your paint scheme is at events at Warhammer World and (maybe) at the Warhammer Citadel.

This - and even then if I remember correctly it only goes one direction. I saw this once, and I WANT to say it was on an event rules. If your army is painted as a specific GW Chapter, you have to play as that specific chapter. IF your army is painted as a DIY chapter you can use any rules. At least that's what I remember.

Your opponent was wrong, paint them however you want bad they can still be Imperial Fists.

Being obsessed with RAW is one thing. Being obsessed with RAW and not understanding RAW at all at the same time is perplexing!

Even the fluff doesn't say that a specific chapter always appears in specific colours. Clearly your army has temporarily altered its colour scheme to confound the enemy.

Your opponent obviously isn't a "RaW is God" player because RaW paint doesn't affect rules. I think that this is perhaps somewhat of a porkie intended to stir the pot, but that's just my opinion.

Keep in mind the WD article is technically outdated and you need to use the rules for Crimson Fists in the new SM codex 2019.

IIRC You actually cannot use the Crimson Fists rules for anything other than units with the CRIMSON FISTS keyword anymore. So while you can have your models painted however you want, you have to use the CRIMSON FISTS keyword.

Codex: Space Marines, Page 174 wrote:The Chapter Tactic gained depends upon the Chapter they are drawn from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, an Ultramarines unit with the Chapter Tactics ability gains the Codex Discipline tactic. If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, you must instead create a Successor Chapter Tactic for them, as described on page 176.

Codex: Space Marines, Page 177 wrote:Inheritors of the Primarch
If you select this Successor Tactic you cannot select a second. Select one of the following Chapters and use the Chapter Tactic of that Chapter as listed on page 175: Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands.

As you can see, if you don't have the CRIMSON FISTS keyword, you cannot use the Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Your opponent obviously isn't a "RaW is God" player because RaW paint doesn't affect rules. I think that this is perhaps somewhat of a porkie intended to stir the pot, but that's just my opinion.

Keep in mind the WD article is technically outdated and you need to use the rules for Crimson Fists in the new SM codex 2019.

IIRC You actually cannot use the Crimson Fists rules for anything other than units with the CRIMSON FISTS keyword anymore. So while you can have your models painted however you want, you have to use the CRIMSON FISTS keyword.

Codex: Space Marines, Page 174 wrote:The Chapter Tactic gained depends upon the Chapter they are drawn from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, an Ultramarines unit with the Chapter Tactics ability gains the Codex Discipline tactic. If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, you must instead create a Successor Chapter Tactic for them, as described on page 176.

Codex: Space Marines, Page 177 wrote:Inheritors of the Primarch
If you select this Successor Tactic you cannot select a second. Select one of the following Chapters and use the Chapter Tactic of that Chapter as listed on page 175: Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands.

As you can see, if you don't have the CRIMSON FISTS keyword, you cannot use the Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic.

(Emphasis mine)
That's not where I saw it, but I think its part of it. There's a Designer's Note on Inheritors Of the Primarch - If your chapter is a known successor of a specific First Founding Chapter (For example the Storm Lords Chapter is a known successor of the White Scars) then if you select this Tactic yadda yadda. So technically you can use the CF Chapter Tactic by building a DIY successor of the CF - but you cannot use the CF Warlord Trait - I don't see permission/or instruction to take the Warlord as well as Chapter tactic, nor is there anything telling you to replace the <CHAPTER> in the named Warlord Trait with your successor Chapter.

Edit to Add: The chapter supplement does allow using the parent chapter warlord traits from the expanded list, and instructs you to replace the Chapter Keyword.

Breton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Your opponent obviously isn't a "RaW is God" player because RaW paint doesn't affect rules. I think that this is perhaps somewhat of a porkie intended to stir the pot, but that's just my opinion.

Keep in mind the WD article is technically outdated and you need to use the rules for Crimson Fists in the new SM codex 2019.

IIRC You actually cannot use the Crimson Fists rules for anything other than units with the CRIMSON FISTS keyword anymore. So while you can have your models painted however you want, you have to use the CRIMSON FISTS keyword.

Codex: Space Marines, Page 174 wrote:The Chapter Tactic gained depends upon the Chapter they are drawn from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, an Ultramarines unit with the Chapter Tactics ability gains the Codex Discipline tactic. If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, you must instead create a Successor Chapter Tactic for them, as described on page 176.

Codex: Space Marines, Page 177 wrote:Inheritors of the Primarch
If you select this Successor Tactic you cannot select a second. Select one of the following Chapters and use the Chapter Tactic of that Chapter as listed on page 175: Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands.

As you can see, if you don't have the CRIMSON FISTS keyword, you cannot use the Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic.

(Emphasis mine)
That's not where I saw it, but I think its part of it. There's a Designer's Note on Inheritors Of the Primarch - If your chapter is a known successor of a specific First Founding Chapter (For example the Storm Lords Chapter is a known successor of the White Scars) then if you select this Tactic yadda yadda. So technically you can use the CF Chapter Tactic by building a DIY successor of the CF - but you cannot use the CF Warlord Trait - I don't see permission/or instruction to take the Warlord as well as Chapter tactic, nor is there anything telling you to replace the <CHAPTER> in the named Warlord Trait with your successor Chapter.

Edit to Add: The chapter supplement does allow using the parent chapter warlord traits from the expanded list, and instructs you to replace the Chapter Keyword.

You can't have successors to the CF. You can only have successors to the original 9 Loyal legions.

Just avoid any idiotic discussions by saying "these are White Scars even though they look like Alpha Legion", for example.

If you want to use successor specific rules, just do that - it's pretty obvious what you can or cannot do then.
Just don't try to run a successor chapter, grab the benefits of that and THEN try to add stuff that's specific to the parent chapter such as unique Characters.

It should be obvious that the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists can't be the Chapter Master of your custom IF successor chapter.

If you want to run a Chapter Master "just like the IF one", just run your customer chapter as Imperial Fists, use all of their rules (=no cherry picking successor traits) and just call the named character something else in your own custom chapter fluff. Colour doesn't matter.

Basically, what nekooni said.

Just say that there's Imperial Fists with a different paint color, using the IMPERIAL FIST keyword, but with a different paint color. If your opponent says they have to be yellow, ask him to produce the rule stating that.

If you are claiming that they are a successor chapter, though, with a different keyword (HAMMERS OF DORN, GOLDEN HAMMERS, etc) you'd follow the rules for successor chapters. You wouldn't be able to use any of the Imperial Fist characters for the army since you wouldn't have the IMPERIAL FIST keyword in that case. Easier to just go with saying they're IMPERIAL FISTS but have a different paint scheme because the Emperor asked them to try it out for a while.

I think it's really dumb to deny someone rules based on paint scheme. Like I totally get taking pride in our army and using it's rule good or bad, but to limit someone to that I don't think is fair. It's outrageous to expect someone to go out and buy/paint a whole new army just to run their Ultramarines as Imperial Fists for the purposes of rules.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think it's really dumb to deny someone rules based on paint scheme. Like I totally get taking pride in our army and using it's rule good or bad, but to limit someone to that I don't think is fair. It's outrageous to expect someone to go out and buy/paint a whole new army just to run their Ultramarines as Imperial Fists for the purposes of rules.

No more outragous than having to buy another box of terminators to try out a different unit if they get new rules with new weapon options? Or to have to rebase all your minatures when new base sizes come out? Or to have to buy a whole new unit to experiement with them in your army?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think it's really dumb to deny someone rules based on paint scheme. Like I totally get taking pride in our army and using it's rule good or bad, but to limit someone to that I don't think is fair. It's outrageous to expect someone to go out and buy/paint a whole new army just to run their Ultramarines as Imperial Fists for the purposes of rules.

No more outragous than having to buy another box of terminators to try out a different unit if they get new rules with new weapon options? Or to have to rebase all your minatures when new base sizes come out? Or to have to buy a whole new unit to experiement with them in your army?

All of that is totally fine with me if you wanna proxy something for a game or two, yeah. The one limit I have is that you can't proxy one thing with models that are also being used otherwise and where I'm unable to differentiate stuff. For example, if you have a model with a heavy bolter in a tactical Squad it's totally fine with me if that's a plasma Cannon, but you can't run one of the Bolter guys as a plasma gun without making that guy stand out in some way.

That being said there's a huge difference between asking someone to buy an entire army or repaint their entire army and asking them to add one box of models to properly represent that new unit.
Everyone draws a line somewhere, that doesn't mean that "if you draw a line you're a hypocrite for not allowing the thing right next to the line, too". That's the point of drawing a line somewhere.

People need to relax on this. I understand we all want to see nicely painted mini's on the table all WYSIWYG but there are no rules saying that you have too. If you want to play with cardboard cut outs and your opponent is happy to play against that. No rules say you can't .

On that note. I entered a last minute tournament, I didn't finish building my models in time. So when I showed up, I told them to give me an auto loss on all my games. I was just going to sit and build. I brought everything I hadn't finished yet. But literally everyone at this tournament just wanted to have another opponent and told me to proxy my entire unfinished half of my army. I didn't even want to, but they practically forced me...

Conclusion, if your opponent or TO is ok with it. Then its Ok. .
I like to see finished, differentiated models on the table. But if it comes down to whether or not a game happens or not, I let things slide and I work it out with my opponent so we can make it work.

the guy who pulled this on you is a dick plain and simple. the proper lesson to take home from this is to not play this guy again and enchourage everyone else to freeze him out too

BrianDavion wrote:
the guy who pulled this on you is a dick plain and simple. the proper lesson to take home from this is to not play this guy again and enchourage everyone else to freeze him out too

Two wrongs after all, make a right!

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think it's really dumb to deny someone rules based on paint scheme. Like I totally get taking pride in our army and using it's rule good or bad, but to limit someone to that I don't think is fair. It's outrageous to expect someone to go out and buy/paint a whole new army just to run their Ultramarines as Imperial Fists for the purposes of rules.

No more outragous than having to buy another box of terminators to try out a different unit if they get new rules with new weapon options? Or to have to rebase all your minatures when new base sizes come out? Or to have to buy a whole new unit to experiement with them in your army?

Most people will let you proxy to try out a new unit or new weapon options. Also you don't have to rebase all your miniatures when new base sizes come out, GW has said before that the models use the bases they came on, which are supposedly what you're already using on the old models. If you want to rebase to the current base size that's fine though.


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AdmiralHalsey wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the guy who pulled this on you is a dick plain and simple. the proper lesson to take home from this is to not play this guy again and enchourage everyone else to freeze him out too

Two wrongs after all, make a right!

Maybe, maybe not, but three lefts make a right.