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pm713 wrote: I meant a source for GK being made from the Emperor in a way other Marines aren't..
NUMEROUS GK codices?
Okay. I'm not going to go out and buy a GK codex just to check things someone on the Internet said. That's why I was asking for something to back up what you claimed.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: I meant a source for GK being made from the Emperor in a way other Marines aren't..
NUMEROUS GK codices?
Okay. I'm not going to go out and buy a GK codex just to check things someone on the Internet said. That's why I was asking for something to back up what you claimed.
This has been the fact since the 3rd ed demon hunter codex I think, though in the earlier editions GW only hinted at the fact that the grey knights were made from the emperors genes.
Emperors genes or not, the creation of both custodes and grey knights is still vastly different. As has been said many times before the custodes are very much superior in terms of physical combat prowess, but the grey knights are still much more suited to combat demons. This fact is the source of tension between custodes and grey knights. The custodes knew that the emperors original plan for humanity has failed and that the imperium would have to face more widespread demon incursions throughout the imperium after the heresy, hence the creation of the ordo malleus and its militant chapter the grey knights. The custodes just can't stomach the possibility well that they grey knights might be better suited than them to protect the imperium against the great enemy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/18 12:19:41
Custodians are/wereatthetime(?) sworn to defend the Emperor. All other matters were unimportant. It wasn't until Bobby G ordered them into action that they did anything else. I mean, they have zero tact when it comes to even basic communication. I don't think you'd want them in charge of leading a political takeover of Terra.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Custodians are/wereatthetime(?) sworn to defend the Emperor. All other matters were unimportant. It wasn't until Bobby G ordered them into action that they did anything else. I mean, they have zero tact when it comes to even basic communication. I don't think you'd want them in charge of leading a political takeover of Terra.
That is not quite correct. Yes, the most important duty is to guard the emperor and the palace, but the custodes were meant to guide and protect humanity after the emperor would complete his webway project. This ultimately failed as we all know, but the custodes were still expected to be well versed in matters such as politics, diplomacy, philosophy etc. because the emperor expected from them to give him councel and provide him with interesting conversation. This fact is referenced in their codex, watchers of the throne and multiple heresy books.
This, for me, is also a big part of what makes the custodes lore interesting.They are not just those larger than life perfect warrior bodyguards to the emperor, but individuals who can think for themselves in an imperium where that is rarely the case. They also miserably failed their most paramount duty and then basically abandonded humanity and their purpose as guardians/advisers for them. They had the chance to do something (not immediately after the heresy as we've already established, but some time after) but because of a combination of arrogance and self pity they failed to do so until girlyman told them to get off their asses, like you said.
pm713 wrote: Define not that good. I can easily just say Custodes aren't all that.
Dozens dying almost entirely to their body rapidly mutating then exploding seems reasonable to me.
Looking at their stats, their weapons, other lore descriptions of how both parties generally handle themselves. Harlies of all flavors generally are good, but not carve through Dozens good. Dozens implies more than 24.
pm713 wrote: Define not that good. I can easily just say Custodes aren't all that.
Dozens dying almost entirely to their body rapidly mutating then exploding seems reasonable to me.
Looking at their stats, their weapons, other lore descriptions of how both parties generally handle themselves. Harlies of all flavors generally are good, but not carve through Dozens good. Dozens implies more than 24.
A rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman isn't fair?
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: Define not that good. I can easily just say Custodes aren't all that.
Dozens dying almost entirely to their body rapidly mutating then exploding seems reasonable to me.
Looking at their stats, their weapons, other lore descriptions of how both parties generally handle themselves. Harlies of all flavors generally are good, but not carve through Dozens good. Dozens implies more than 24.
A rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman isn't fair?
you just described the bog standard bolt gun.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
pm713 wrote: Define not that good. I can easily just say Custodes aren't all that.
Dozens dying almost entirely to their body rapidly mutating then exploding seems reasonable to me.
Looking at their stats, their weapons, other lore descriptions of how both parties generally handle themselves. Harlies of all flavors generally are good, but not carve through Dozens good. Dozens implies more than 24.
A rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman isn't fair?
you just described the bog standard bolt gun.
I didn't. A bolter is both far less dangerous to be hit by for a Custodes and is barely an automatic weapon by comparison to a shrieker cannon.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: Define not that good. I can easily just say Custodes aren't all that.
Dozens dying almost entirely to their body rapidly mutating then exploding seems reasonable to me.
Looking at their stats, their weapons, other lore descriptions of how both parties generally handle themselves. Harlies of all flavors generally are good, but not carve through Dozens good. Dozens implies more than 24.
A rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman isn't fair?
you just described the bog standard bolt gun.
I didn't. A bolter is both far less dangerous to be hit by for a Custodes and is barely an automatic weapon by comparison to a shrieker cannon.
except you said "a rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman" That describes bolt guns as well as nearly every second weapon in 40k.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
pm713 wrote: Define not that good. I can easily just say Custodes aren't all that.
Dozens dying almost entirely to their body rapidly mutating then exploding seems reasonable to me.
Looking at their stats, their weapons, other lore descriptions of how both parties generally handle themselves. Harlies of all flavors generally are good, but not carve through Dozens good. Dozens implies more than 24.
A rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman isn't fair?
you just described the bog standard bolt gun.
I didn't. A bolter is both far less dangerous to be hit by for a Custodes and is barely an automatic weapon by comparison to a shrieker cannon.
except you said "a rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman" That describes bolt guns as well as nearly every second weapon in 40k.
I wouldn't call a bolter a cannon. Considering I already mentioned it I thought it was obvious I meant the shrieker cannon.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: Define not that good. I can easily just say Custodes aren't all that.
Dozens dying almost entirely to their body rapidly mutating then exploding seems reasonable to me.
Looking at their stats, their weapons, other lore descriptions of how both parties generally handle themselves. Harlies of all flavors generally are good, but not carve through Dozens good. Dozens implies more than 24.
A rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman isn't fair?
The gun that is only 1 damage? That kills in a single shot?
pm713 wrote: Define not that good. I can easily just say Custodes aren't all that.
Dozens dying almost entirely to their body rapidly mutating then exploding seems reasonable to me.
Looking at their stats, their weapons, other lore descriptions of how both parties generally handle themselves. Harlies of all flavors generally are good, but not carve through Dozens good. Dozens implies more than 24.
A rapid firing cannon that kills with a single shot in the hands of an expert marksman isn't fair?
The gun that is only 1 damage? That kills in a single shot?
A gun that rapidly mutates your body and causes you to explode. IIRC the book specifically mentions a Custodes actually lasts longer than most victims do.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
BrianDavion wrote: yet again every gun in 40k is pretty much a massivly powerful canon used as a pistol.
Exactly, hard to quantify which is stronger, .75 caliber fully automatic rocket propelled grenade launcher, or fully automatic mono-molecular needle guns filled with toxins that make you explode. Pretty much one shot from either kills you dead.
BrianDavion wrote: there's actually a lot of evidance custodes hold the astartes in partiuclar contempt
They hold the GK and primarchs in contempt, or some other negative emotion. I don't think they have any more contempt towards normal Astartes than they do towards normal humans. In MoM a Custodian was able to have a conversation with a BA, for a while. That's better than the interaction he had with some children, almost killing them.
I don't understand why the GK? The GK are closer to Custodes than any other force, being made from the Emperor's genes, being utterly pure, sanctioned by the Emperor himself and fighting the good fight against Daemons for 10k years.
Space Marines on the other hand, they actively distrust. 9 traitor legions fethed everything up and any given astartes could try the same now.
Source for that?
The Primarchs were made like that and most of them went traitor in some way. Considering Custodes are fanatics they're not going to say "hold up, maybe the reason everyone goes traitor, fails or somehow sucks is because the Emperor does not everyone except up."
Source for what? That the GK are closer to Custodes because they're made out of Emperor geneseed? Well, the truth of Emperor geneseed is debated long and hard on these forums even though its been explicitly stated in multiple GK codices, but if you take it to be true, then yes, the GK are closer to the Custodes who are also rumoured to use some of the Emperor's genes in their making (although not Geneseed), and at the very least, each GK is therefore at least 1% Emperor so therefore, closer to the Custodes.
The other parts, being sanctioned by the Emperor as his dying wish, being incorruptible, etc, likely means that the Custodes look at GK with less contempt or suspicion than most other forces. They still look at them with suspicion, as they'd be terrible bodyguards if they didn't, but less/
I'm not sure what you mean by your last line. Primarchs were Primarchs, but the Grey Knights were chosen and made to be pure, with the express purpose of purity, and in 10,000 years, only the GK and the AC have yet to have a member fall to Chaos or betray the Imperium. Both have equally rigorous selection and training. That counts for something.
Exactly, the GK are closer to the Custodes than any other factions, so the Custodes fear the GK are their replacement. The GK got the emperor's last blessing, but the Custodes were supposed to get that; they're his favorite, right? It's basically Jacob and Esau.
Spoiler:
The Grey Knights, whom we had always had uneasy relations with,
answered our summons. I do not know if it was my request that prompted the
order, or if Valoris had been petitioned by others. In any case, we were not so
proud that we could not ask for help when it was needed.
There is a profound distinction to be made here. We could both – Custodian and
Grey Knight – slay daemons. We were both to all intents and purposes immune
to their temptations, and we were both effective against their many strategems.
There are two great repositories of lore against the daemonic in the Sol System,
our own archives in the Tower of Hegemon and the far greater librarium lodged
on Titan itself. We are, as orders, steeped to our very cores in the fight against
the Great Enemy. Perhaps, you might say, Chaos is the reason for both of our
existences.
And yet we are different. Remember I told you that we were never warriors, not
exclusively. We are certainly not an army, and we were intended, in the original
scheme, for service in an empire that never came to be. Our cousins in the
Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, by contrast, were forged exclusively for
this singular war against our most powerful and enduring foe. They have no
other purpose. Just like the Space Marines from whose template they were
drawn, they are an army, complete and self-sufficient.
We always knew of their existence. There are records, held privately in the
depths of our archives, which chronicle their creation. We watched, ten thousand
years ago, as He embarked on His last gambit. As the Great Enemy drew close
to Terra, we observed the darkening of Saturn’s moon, and knew that one day it
would return, its purpose fulfilled.
Consider what this history means. We know that they came after us, the more
junior creation, and yet they were as closely associated with Him as we were.
We both of us look to Him and Him alone as our progenitor, and share the same
sense, cultivated over the wearing aeons, that we enact His designs when all
others falter.
There are some among my brothers who do not see the sons of Titan as much
more than specialised Space Marines, to be regarded with suspicion as part of
that schismatic breed that caused us so much anguish in the past. A Space
Marine may always fail, they believe, given enough time and enough reason, and
thus they are all part of the same potentially aberrant strain.
Some think that. Others, and I myself have often speculated in such a vein,
cultivate a different misgiving. We know well enough that they were designed as
His last great weapon, fitted to an age that He foresaw near the end of His
earthly embodiment. What if it were they, not us, who most faithfully embodied
His final legacy? You will never hear one of us say as much out loud, but that
does not mean the suspicion does not exist. It skulks around the corridors of
Hegemon like a foul odour, faint but hard to eradicate.
From the speculum certus we know we were the finest and the most faithful. In
the speculum obscurus there is, as always, more doubt.
But I don't know if we can compare GK recruitment to Custodes recruitment since there is so little we know. Nor do we know if they a really incorruptible (A "golden giant" guided Abaddon to Drach'nyen, and the last person to hold it was a Custodian who ran into the webway).
Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at with the quote @pm713.
Eipi10 wrote: But I don't know if we can compare GK recruitment to Custodes recruitment since there is so little we know. Nor do we know if they a really incorruptible (A "golden giant" guided Abaddon to Drach'nyen, and the last person to hold it was a Custodian who ran into the webway).
I thought said "golden giant" was meant to be the Deceiver?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Nurglitch wrote: It could also be Lorgar. I think in Master of Mankind it's remarked that Drach'nyen would need millions of years to overcome a Custodes' defenses.
I guess there's at least a short story to be told at some stage about how Drach'nyuk'nyuk'nyuk got away from the Custodes who was meant to be its guardian, if GW/BL feels like telling it,
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
w1zard wrote: What about Vangorich? Why didn't the custodes step in when he had all the other highlords assassinated and basically took control of Terra? The space marines had to do the dirty work.
I may be very wrong on this, but the Custodes don't have hundred of thousands of guys, they are in the tens of thousands, I think? They don't want to divert resources for defending Big E, to settling political issues.
Furthermore, the Marines at the time, numbered in the millions. Again, this was pre-codex astartes correct? They were somewhat more capable of putting down this sort of uprising.
In the past, The Big E has used Custodes in this way, the only difference being he was personally with them when it started. When Big E put down the Techno Barbarian hordes, he arrived at the front of a number of "Golden Warriors" which he called his Custodians. I think it was like, 1k Custodes/The Emperor vs. 100k of everyone else?
w1zard wrote: What about Vangorich? Why didn't the custodes step in when he had all the other highlords assassinated and basically took control of Terra? The space marines had to do the dirty work.
I may be very wrong on this, but the Custodes don't have hundred of thousands of guys, they are in the tens of thousands, I think? They don't want to divert resources for defending Big E, to settling political issues.
Furthermore, the Marines at the time, numbered in the millions. Again, this was pre-codex astartes correct? They were somewhat more capable of putting down this sort of uprising.
In the past, The Big E has used Custodes in this way, the only difference being he was personally with them when it started. When Big E put down the Techno Barbarian hordes, he arrived at the front of a number of "Golden Warriors" which he called his Custodians. I think it was like, 1k Custodes/The Emperor vs. 100k of everyone else?
A couple of small things: Vangorich was active quite some time after the heresy, so the codex astartes was very much a thing. Also your numbers are a bit exaggerated I think. Yes the Custodes rank at about 10000 man strong, but the Astartes did not rank in the millions I think.
The last thing about diverting resources: we know from the custodes codex that they actively eliminated threats to the throne and the sol system in the last 10000 years, they just did more or less in secred. Or they protected people they deemed important for the defence of the imperium. So according to that lore they should have been able to divert resources to deal with vangorich. Basically if the custodes really, really want to deal with any threat directly on terra or the inner sol system, there is no one who could stop them. Outside the sol system not so much, that is more the space marines or inquisitions turf, but you get my point.
It's basically just lore discrepancies between the new codex custodes lore and rather old, long standing lore.
In my opinion there could have been an elegant way to explain the inactivity of the custodes during the times of vangorich or the age of apostasy when goge vandire screwed the imperium over: if in that time the custodes again had to divert many of their forces to fight demons in the webway, because the webway gate beneath the golden throne opened up just a little bit periodically because of malfunctions it would have been rather believable that they had no time to deal with anything else. We also know that they most likely would not have asked for help from the grey knights in that case, because the custodes are rather proud as we know and would never admit that they need the help of those upstart demon hunter kids, who might just be better than them at killing demons.
Now we know of course that this did not happen. The webway gate remained closed after the emperor was placed on the golden throne in perpetuity, but like I said it would have explained the inactivity of the custodes through key events in the last 10000 years a bit better.
I'm sorry, I was looking at the first page of this thread when I responded, thinking I was on the last page. I did not mean to necro an already pointed out argument.
I think their hypocrisy is part of the charm of the IoM. The government of the IoM is a crushing burden on mankind because anything else would fail mankind. Imperial Guardsmen are used as cannon fodder because advanced military technology is sparse. Trillions of xenos are genuinely out to devour humanity mind, body and soul. Therefore the rulers of humanity must use draconian measures to fight them.
The Custodes have the luxury to flaunt their disdain, spoiled as they are.
Red Marine wrote: I think their hypocrisy is part of the charm of the IoM. The government of the IoM is a crushing burden on mankind because anything else would fail mankind. Imperial Guardsmen are used as cannon fodder because advanced military technology is sparse. Trillions of xenos are genuinely out to devour humanity mind, body and soul. Therefore the rulers of humanity must use draconian measures to fight them.
The Custodes have the luxury to flaunt their disdain, spoiled as they are.
Thats actually quite a nice summary. Really makes you wonder what the imperium could have looked like if the emperor had been able to complete his webway project.
Dysartes wrote:I thought said "golden giant" was meant to be the Deceiver?
Nurglitch wrote:It could also be Lorgar. I think in Master of Mankind it's remarked that Drach'nyen would need millions of years to overcome a Custodes' defenses.
Dysartes wrote:
Nurglitch wrote: It could also be Lorgar. I think in Master of Mankind it's remarked that Drach'nyen would need millions of years to overcome a Custodes' defenses.
I guess there's at least a short story to be told at some stage about how Drach'nyuk'nyuk'nyuk got away from the Custodes who was meant to be its guardian, if GW/BL feels like telling it,
I would pre-order whatever book has that story in. But you all definitely think it's wasn't a custodian? I don't see how the deceiver, even a shard, could have escaped the necrons and why it would then guide Abaddon to the sword. And I would think Abby would recognize Lorgar.
Dysartes wrote:I thought said "golden giant" was meant to be the Deceiver?
Nurglitch wrote:It could also be Lorgar. I think in Master of Mankind it's remarked that Drach'nyen would need millions of years to overcome a Custodes' defenses.
Dysartes wrote:
Nurglitch wrote: It could also be Lorgar. I think in Master of Mankind it's remarked that Drach'nyen would need millions of years to overcome a Custodes' defenses.
I guess there's at least a short story to be told at some stage about how Drach'nyuk'nyuk'nyuk got away from the Custodes who was meant to be its guardian, if GW/BL feels like telling it,
I would pre-order whatever book has that story in. But you all definitely think it's wasn't a custodian? I don't see how the deceiver, even a shard, could have escaped the necrons and why it would then guide Abaddon to the sword. And I would think Abby would recognize Lorgar.
I'm not claiming it's Lorgar, just pointing out that 'golden giant' is super generic.
4,000 
Word Bearers 1,500 
