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With all the new rumors that the next Primarch returning is none other than Lion El'Jonson. I took the time to research again the leader of the 1st Legion.

He's the only one I can't get my finger on, or completely grasp. I know he suffers from different writers writing him differently. But what is he like overall?

Is he a big jerk, but with a good heart inside? I know he's somewhat stoic like Perturabo but also an optimist when he was young. I would be curious how others view him. What is he like to you?

What I am certain of is his loyalty, both The Emperor and Guilliman wouldn't even question it, the other half of his legion is another story.

 Wanderlust wrote:
With all the new rumors that the next Primarch returning is none other than Lion El'Jonson. I took the time to research again the leader of the 1st Legion.

He's the only one I can't get my finger on, or completely grasp. I know he suffers from different writers writing him differently. But what is he like overall?

Is he a big jerk, but with a good heart inside? I know he's somewhat stoic like Perturabo but also an optimist when he was young. I would be curious how others view him. What is he like to you?

What I am certain of is his loyalty, both The Emperor and Guilliman wouldn't even question it, the other half of his legion is another story.

IIRC the Lion did not like Girlyman and specifically blocked him from forming the Imperium Secondus and eventually compromised that Sanguinius would be the better leader.

So if he were to "Awaken" then he might not like Girlyman in charge. could be very interesting indeed.

However he is my bet, if a loyalist Primarch is going to return. The lion has to literally wake up, and we have an event with awakening in the title, the time is probably nigh.

My impression throughout the Heresy is one of...mild paranoia and immaturity.

The Lion exists in fear that someone is going to one-up him somehow. So he keeps secrets he doesn't need to, has considerable trust issues, and really struggles to relate either to his brother Primarchs or to those who raised him on Caliban. He gets stroppy (Perturabo style) when he doesn't get his way, and was more than a little jealous of Horus getting raised above him. He sucker punched Russ in the jaw once because he thought Russ was laughing at him and couldn't stand it. He's obsessed with being 'strong' and not succumbing to temptation (thanks to his time on his homeworld). He refused to withdraw against the Rangdan, due to his obsessive tendencies.

No, he's a ruthless (because he has trouble relating to his men) if skilled commander, and very much a 'bigger picture/greater good' sort of man. Not much heart at all. He'd make a good Inquisitor, but a poor Leader of the Imperium. There's a lot of speculation that he might actually be autistic.

He's probably one of the more inconsistent primarchs between novels but the books I've read gave me a few solid impressions. One is that he relates to almost everyone else the same way the Emperor did, with a general sense of duty and wanting to advance the collective interest but little ability to emphasis with actual people.

He comes off as one of if not the most mentally isolated primarchs and one who felt one some level to connect his brothers but due to his general lack people skills and ability to read subtle interactions lead to constant issues with them.

The Lion is shown as really struggling to interact with people due to growing up without human contact on a death world for the first 10 years of his life. Simply put, he can't read people at all and so struggles to understand and trust them. He is also very dictatorial to the point where he decapitates one of his own Chaplains for questioning an order.

At the start of the Heresy, he hands over a load of siege engines to Perturabo to keep them out of Horus's hands and fails to see that Perty is all but laughing in his face.

All his senses are focussed on combat and survival which makes him one of the best duelists among the Primarchs but at the expense of any personal interaction.

 Karhedron wrote:
The Lion is shown as really struggling to interact with people due to growing up without human contact on a death world for the first 10 years of his life. Simply put, he can't read people at all and so struggles to understand and trust them. He is also very dictatorial to the point where he decapitates one of his own Chaplains for questioning an order.

At the start of the Heresy, he hands over a load of siege engines to Perturabo to keep them out of Horus's hands and fails to see that Perty is all but laughing in his face.

All his senses are focussed on combat and survival which makes him one of the best duelists among the Primarchs but at the expense of any personal interaction.

Yeah. He is a interesting character, he does sometimes fail to see the obvious but he also is capable of, and had a very good record in combat Vs primarchs including the pretty capable Kurze, who very leathal with his arsenal of dirty fighting tactics. I recall. He also fails to see some of the issues that come up that caused his legion to be decided by treason and plot.

He's also very overly confident in his own assessments of things. He doesn't solicit advice or opinions, and he keeps his own counsel. He makes use of inscrutable, definitely questionable xeno/chaos tech, keeps it a secret, and doesn't seem to struggle with any issues about doing so.

I find him to be one of the least sympathetic of the Primarchs, even the ones who turned to Chaos, because his passions and interests are so internalized and aloof. Even bitter, paranoid guys like Perturabo had hobbies and relatable interests. The Lion seems like the least fun guy in any room.

I'm not sure Forgeworld would be doing the Lion for their HH collection, if GW were planning to release a similar one shortly after.

The Lion isn't gonna be all that different aesthetically from 30k to 41k.

They had to make up a backstory for Guillimans fancy alternate armor, and new flamey sword but would they really pull that card out again?

I think GW have stuffed up on the identity of the DA and thus the Lion himself. On one hand they seem to have wanted at some point to model them on the knights of Arthurian etc legends but missed the mark by a wide and then made them more of a secret order with no clear identity like space wolves or blood angels.

They’ve always been my fave chapter despite this and I do like all the unforgiven stuff. But I still find myself thinking who are these guys.

I think of them as the first legion and what would the emperor want with his first legion? pure army, utterly dedicated to the mission and compelled by honour and duty to see the mission through and failure is not an option. Pretty simple and bit boring, after that the rest of the primaries have more of a niche, statesmen, siegecraft, fortification, terrorism, genocide, wolf??, vampire?? Goth??

What makes the DA interesting is that they failed due to their primarchs hubris and are driven by their shame to fulfil their duty to the emperor during the attack on terra. Now their desperation to hide the true extent of their chapters errors has become more important than their duty to the empire. They stand on the edge of corruption and it has made them paranoid and cruel.

It will be interesting to see how the GW enhance the DA by the return of the lion. Didn’t Azrael admit to RG that Luther had escaped? Wonder if the lion will kill him for it or become all consumed with finding Luther that he neglects the new duties RG gives him.

I also think DA are the chapter most likely to have ties with loyalist Alpha Legion. 1st and last legion working together in secret sounds pretty cool.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm not sure Forgeworld would be doing the Lion for their HH collection, if GW were planning to release a similar one shortly after.

The Lion isn't gonna be all that different aesthetically from 30k to 41k.

They had to make up a backstory for Guillimans fancy alternate armor, and new flamey sword but would they really pull that card out again?

Yes. It wouldn't have been hard for Guilliman to keep his old stuff at all but GW love new stuff and don't really care about changing things to suit themselves.

I’ve never particularly liked the Lion. He’s always seemed a bit overly secretive for no real reason and far too untrusting while essentially being emotionally stunted and behaving like a petulant teenager. He’s also struck me as possibly being autistic.

I liked the hints back in the day that he had actually turned traitor and that Luther was actually the loyal one. I always thought it made him and the DAs far more interesting and actually made them keeping their big secret make sense. Of course that possibility has been ruled out now and the DAs making the truth about Luther turning traitor such a big secret has never really made any sense to me, especially considering that every loyalist chapter is supposed to have had its share of traitors, and nobody has tried to wipe out the White Scars for their own mutiny.

Aash wrote:
I’ve never particularly liked the Lion. He’s always seemed a bit overly secretive for no real reason and far too untrusting while essentially being emotionally stunted and behaving like a petulant teenager. He’s also struck me as possibly being autistic.

I liked the hints back in the day that he had actually turned traitor and that Luther was actually the loyal one. I always thought it made him and the DAs far more interesting and actually made them keeping their big secret make sense. Of course that possibility has been ruled out now and the DAs making the truth about Luther turning traitor such a big secret has never really made any sense to me, especially considering that every loyalist chapter is supposed to have had its share of traitors, and nobody has tried to wipe out the White Scars for their own mutiny.

I've never understood the autism thing with the Lion. It makes no sense.

Because the White Scars Traitors all died. The DA traitors got scattered all over the place and were far more numerous IIRC. Then the 30k era DA panicked about what might happen to them as they were in a time where there was massive hunting of traitors and still the risk of a new civil war so they covered things up. By the time they reached the point where the Fallen weren't an issue the new issue was what the DA had done to cover them up. It was more reasonable when there was a chance the DA were traitors but there you go.

Also, the idea that there were traitors in the Loyalists (and Loyalists in the traitors) was written much later than the DAs backstory.

It would be a good plot point to spin on if and when Lion wakes up, especially with the increased reports of Fallen in greater numbers. Will the 1st and all their successors unite and crusade?

I can also see a way for them to split the Marine faction in half, putting the new Primaris collection on Guillimans side, with the older Mark's joining the Lion.

For me the Lion strikes me as the embodiment of the EoMK’s strategic brilliance. Duplicity goes hand and hand with strategy and that’s why the whole fallen thing comes about and fits with the idea that it’s possible the lion was holding his forces back during the war for terra.

I’d like to see them go further by expanding on this and giving him rule over the inquisition.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
(and Loyalists in the traitors) was written much later than the DAs backstory.

Not really. The whole "Garro, Tarvitz, Varren and co. / Flight of the Eisenstein" thing actually predates the "half the Dark Angels went traitor" thing by several years. The former dates back to the Realms of Chaos books in the late 1980s, the latter to the 2nd edition DA/BA codex ('Angels of Death') in 1996.

Aash wrote:
I’ve never particularly liked the Lion. He’s always seemed a bit overly secretive for no real reason

In one of the short stories, the Lion is asked by one of his lieutenants why he does not pass on some information to Guilliman and Sanguinius. Johnsons replies something like "A secret kept today is a coin to spend tomorrow". He seems to find every piece of information a potential advantage in future.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:
IIRC the Lion did not like Girlyman and specifically blocked him from forming the Imperium Secondus and eventually compromised that Sanguinius would be the better leader.

So if he were to "Awaken" then he might not like Girlyman in charge. could be very interesting indeed.

This is completely wrong tho. Not only they learned to work together by the end of that arc, the position Lion wanted the most was being Warmaster. Guilliman would love to dump the commanding duties on literally anyone else in order to have time to do political reforms, if Lion shown up demanding command spot Guilliman would just throw a list of help requests at him and told him to start dealing with them yesterday.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm not sure Forgeworld would be doing the Lion for their HH collection, if GW were planning to release a similar one shortly after.

The Lion isn't gonna be all that different aesthetically from 30k to 41k.

They had to make up a backstory for Guillimans fancy alternate armor, and new flamey sword but would they really pull that card out again?

Seeing they made their garbage, really ugly line of Custodes entirely duplicating (but in worse way) 40K stuff just as the plastic sprues were being put in production, I really wouldn't be surprised if they did so. Hell, I can see them making tiny five piece "upgrade" resin kit to ""fix"" flaws in 40K one (read - change one or two details to chunkier, much less crispy medium ruining his overall design) then demanding 253$ for it. The 30K circlejerk grognards would eat it right up to not be accused of using yucky 40K mini

And funnily enough, 30K Guilliman has sword called literally "flaming sword" in faux latin, on top of identical loadout, so nothing, except for how easily you're parted with your money, stops you from using either in both systems

He's called Lionel. And if you won't have that, then you have to have him being called El Johnson.

In either case, says it all!

He did beat up Leman Russ once, though. That's impressive if nothing else...

He's not autistic, he's just superior to everyone else and knows it.

To be clear I don't necessarily mean that as a compliment. I think we all know at least one person who loves to talk up how good they are at something. And then, infuriatingly, they actually are, which makes it worse.

Because of his superiority in a lot of ways to his peers (be they Calibanites, other Primarchs etc), he has incredibly exacting standards that are ridiculously overblown and unrealistic. So basically he's disappointed by everyone around him, and is bad at hiding it.

The Leman Russ Primarch novel tells us that he's actually really good at politicking, and given some more time might've been able to make a stronger claim for Warmaster. I don't think someone who is socially-inept could wield that much influence in a political system without some skill. And that's after Luther got sent home.

Definitely got sociopathic tenancies though. And whoever said it nailed it on the head, every piece of knowledge is a potential advantage, and he's not going to give those up without good reason.

Ultimately he's one of those incredibly capable, but hard to like or relate to individuals. Gets things done, usually in the most effective and efficient way possible. But it's his way or the highway. And if something gets under his skin he starts going off the rails.

It's why I like him and find him so interesting. One of those classic "almost but not quite" characters where he's got so much going for him, but his failings hold him back and he doesn't even realize it.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
He's not autistic, he's just superior to everyone else and knows it.

More like imagines it. Unlike G-man (and possibly Dorn depending on source) he failed to make his landing site interstellar state, or even raise technological level above medieval. G-man (and Lorgar, I guess) both easily outpaced him in Legion size despite starting later. For all we hear about his 'superiority' he always fails to show it, hell, he was the only loyalist who couldn't even really control his own legion...

The Leman Russ Primarch novel tells us that he's actually really good at politicking, and given some more time might've been able to make a stronger claim for Warmaster. I don't think someone who is socially-inept could wield that much influence in a political system without some skill. And that's after Luther got sent home.

Really? Seeing every other source says he wasn't even in top 3 of candidates (these being Horus, Sangy, and weirdly enough Ferrus) this smells of a retcon. Good at politicking when even organization genetically modified to listen to him shows him middle finger?

Being superior to everyone else isn't exactly an advantage when your goal is political union and getting everyone on board. You can't just manipulate everyone. At some point you need people to buy-in to your vision and work independently for it. Guilliman does it by making sure buying into his vision is the easiest route for people to get stuff done. It's notable that the most charismatic Primarchs, Horus and Lorgar (and maybe Fulgrim) are some of the most successful despite essentially delegating everything.

 Irbis wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
He's not autistic, he's just superior to everyone else and knows it.

More like imagines it. Unlike G-man (and possibly Dorn depending on source) he failed to make his landing site interstellar state, or even raise technological level above medieval. G-man (and Lorgar, I guess) both easily outpaced him in Legion size despite starting later. For all we hear about his 'superiority' he always fails to show it, hell, he was the only loyalist who couldn't even really control his own legion...

The Leman Russ Primarch novel tells us that he's actually really good at politicking, and given some more time might've been able to make a stronger claim for Warmaster. I don't think someone who is socially-inept could wield that much influence in a political system without some skill. And that's after Luther got sent home.

Really? Seeing every other source says he wasn't even in top 3 of candidates (these being Horus, Sangy, and weirdly enough Ferrus) this smells of a retcon. Good at politicking when even organization genetically modified to listen to him shows him middle finger?

the Lemen Russ novel implies The Lion was better at playing the political game on Terra then Lemen Russ.which really is like claiming I'm obviously an olympian because I can outrun a parapalygic.

 Irbis wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
He's not autistic, he's just superior to everyone else and knows it.

More like imagines it. Unlike G-man (and possibly Dorn depending on source) he failed to make his landing site interstellar state, or even raise technological level above medieval. G-man (and Lorgar, I guess) both easily outpaced him in Legion size despite starting later. For all we hear about his 'superiority' he always fails to show it, hell, he was the only loyalist who couldn't even really control his own legion...

The Leman Russ Primarch novel tells us that he's actually really good at politicking, and given some more time might've been able to make a stronger claim for Warmaster. I don't think someone who is socially-inept could wield that much influence in a political system without some skill. And that's after Luther got sent home.

Really? Seeing every other source says he wasn't even in top 3 of candidates (these being Horus, Sangy, and weirdly enough Ferrus) this smells of a retcon. Good at politicking when even organization genetically modified to listen to him shows him middle finger?

White Scars, Iron Hands and Raven Guard are Loyalists, no? They had trouble aplenty.

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:

 Wanderlust wrote:
With all the new rumors that the next Primarch returning is none other than Lion El'Jonson. I took the time to research again the leader of the 1st Legion.

He's the only one I can't get my finger on, or completely grasp. I know he suffers from different writers writing him differently. But what is he like overall?

Is he a big jerk, but with a good heart inside? I know he's somewhat stoic like Perturabo but also an optimist when he was young. I would be curious how others view him. What is he like to you?

What I am certain of is his loyalty, both The Emperor and Guilliman wouldn't even question it, the other half of his legion is another story.

IIRC the Lion did not like Girlyman and specifically blocked him from forming the Imperium Secondus and eventually compromised that Sanguinius would be the better leader.

So if he were to "Awaken" then he might not like Girlyman in charge. could be very interesting indeed.

However he is my bet, if a loyalist Primarch is going to return. The lion has to literally wake up, and we have an event with awakening in the title, the time is probably nigh.

Wrong, you've clearly not read the books. The Lion respects Guilliman, but when he arrives on Mcragge he fears the worst. He was betrayed by Perturabo near the start of the Heresy and his trust in his brothers is shaken, and perhaps he doesn't trust his own judgements of them.

By the end of the Ruinstorm both of them have reconciled any differences and have a mutual respect and understanding. The Lion knows the dangers of the Legions 1st hand, having half of his own turn traitor so he may well have agreed to the implementation of the Codex.

 Ishagu wrote:

 Beersarius Drawl wrote:

 Wanderlust wrote:
With all the new rumors that the next Primarch returning is none other than Lion El'Jonson. I took the time to research again the leader of the 1st Legion.

He's the only one I can't get my finger on, or completely grasp. I know he suffers from different writers writing him differently. But what is he like overall?

Is he a big jerk, but with a good heart inside? I know he's somewhat stoic like Perturabo but also an optimist when he was young. I would be curious how others view him. What is he like to you?

What I am certain of is his loyalty, both The Emperor and Guilliman wouldn't even question it, the other half of his legion is another story.

IIRC the Lion did not like Girlyman and specifically blocked him from forming the Imperium Secondus and eventually compromised that Sanguinius would be the better leader.

So if he were to "Awaken" then he might not like Girlyman in charge. could be very interesting indeed.

However he is my bet, if a loyalist Primarch is going to return. The lion has to literally wake up, and we have an event with awakening in the title, the time is probably nigh.

Wrong, you've clearly not read the books. The Lion respects Guilliman, but when he arrives on Mcragge he fears the worst. He was betrayed by Perturabo near the start of the Heresy and his trust in his brothers is shaken, and perhaps he doesn't trust his own judgements of them.

By the end of the Ruinstorm both of them have reconciled any differences and have a mutual respect and understanding. The Lion knows the dangers of the Legions 1st hand, having half of his own turn traitor so he may well have agreed to the implementation of the Codex.

and the Lion would certainly have trouble arguing with the results. the Codex acheived EXACTLY what it was intended to. the Bdab war was the largest incident of space Marines turning on the Imperium since the Horus Heresy, which was a MEAR 5 chapters. (3 of which actually realized they'd been mislead before they went in too deep)

I'm not sure the Codex achieved what it was meant to, I think the absence of Primarchs did that instead. Even in 40k there's still huge charisma and loyalty to the Primarchs so you have to ask, if Sanguinius/Guilliman/Whoever actually asked all their Successors to join under their command who would say no?

Lion is impatient, irritable, focused, brash, charming.

Inwardly he is calculating and cold, fixated on his objectives.

He left things on a very bad note with Guilliman and Russ. His Imperium Secundus stint left him being banished for atrocities against civilians in the pursuit of Kurze. Guilliman actually seized the Lion Sword and broke it over his knee.

He would have a lot of beef and his would be a very uncomfortable return. Friction and a mutual distant animosity between Guilliman and Lion would be likely and due to different leadership styles and Lion's go-it-alone mindset he would end up deep diving into purging the Galaxy of enemies similar to his obsessive pursuit of Kurze and purging of chaotic homeworlds during the Heresy.

 Irbis wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
He's not autistic, he's just superior to everyone else and knows it.

More like imagines it. Unlike G-man (and possibly Dorn depending on source) he failed to make his landing site interstellar state, or even raise technological level above medieval. G-man (and Lorgar, I guess) both easily outpaced him in Legion size despite starting later. For all we hear about his 'superiority' he always fails to show it, hell, he was the only loyalist who couldn't even really control his own legion...

The Leman Russ Primarch novel tells us that he's actually really good at politicking, and given some more time might've been able to make a stronger claim for Warmaster. I don't think someone who is socially-inept could wield that much influence in a political system without some skill. And that's after Luther got sent home.

Really? Seeing every other source says he wasn't even in top 3 of candidates (these being Horus, Sangy, and weirdly enough Ferrus) this smells of a retcon. Good at politicking when even organization genetically modified to listen to him shows him middle finger?

Really? That is not really fair.

It's now been established that the center of Caliban had a Chaos entity corrupting everything on the planet. It was a death world.

He spent a significant amount of time driving said Chaos beasts into extinction while Guilliman was chatting with his grandma.

Several Heresy novels have established he was near in running for Warmaster and that Perturabo played this into his ego by suggesting he would support his claim for Warmaster in exchange for siege engines. Retcon or not, it's what Black Library is suggesting, that he was second tier choice after Horus. Does that make sense, not necessarily, but neither does Belisarius Cawl or the idiotic introduction of Guilliman into current timeline.

 TedNugent wrote:
Lion is impatient, irritable, focused, brash, charming.

Inwardly he is calculating and cold, fixated on his objectives.

He left things on a very bad note with Guilliman and Russ. His Imperium Secundus stint left him being banished for atrocities against civilians in the pursuit of Kurze. Guilliman actually seized the Lion Sword and broke it over his knee.

He would have a lot of beef and his would be a very uncomfortable return. Friction and a mutual distant animosity between Guilliman and Lion would be likely and due to different leadership styles and Lion's go-it-alone mindset he would end up deep diving into purging the Galaxy of enemies similar to his obsessive pursuit of Kurze and purging of chaotic homeworlds during the Heresy.

*sighs* it's like half this forum didn't read Ruinstorm

Fair enough. I try to go out of my way to avoid reading Horus Heresy novels, especially when they involve Rabootay Gilligan.

I read Unremembered Empire and Angels of Caliban and called it a day. Do you mind explaining how the events of this other novel utterly contradict what I've said?

 TedNugent wrote:
Fair enough. I try to go out of my way to avoid reading Horus Heresy novels, especially when they involve Rabootay Gilligan.

I read Unremembered Empire and Angels of Caliban and called it a day. Do you mind explaining how the events of this other novel utterly contradict what I've said?

they've learned to work together and respect one another.