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I have a specific example that I'd like to get some feedback on. I want to model a DW Intercessor Sgt with a Xenophase blade since it's such a unique a cool looking weapon (I mean, it's weapon showcase on the Codex cover art, after all) but my first dilemma is: Primaris units don't have access to Xenophase blades.

My second dilemma is that I don't want to just use the rules for a Power sword since that seems like a waste on a Sgt model that has 3-4 attacks. Power fist seems more where it's at.
If Intercessors could take Relic Blades, both problems would be solved. I could model it as a Xeno-blade, but get a multi-damage weapon.

What I am asking is, how would you feel if the Sgt was modeled with a Xeno-blade, but used the rules for a Power fist? Would you be ok with the explanation that weapon is actually a special Xeno/Relic blade hybrid.

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I think I'd be fine with it, generally speaking.

If I first saw it, I'd assume it was a power sword, not a power fist, purely because it looks like a sword, but as long as every xenophase blade in your Primaris army used power fist rules, I can't see the problem.

It's why if I saw someone with a Primaris Captain with a spear and auto bolt rifle, I wouldn't have a problem, because the spear can only represent a power sword, and that's easy to remember.
It's not like a normal Space Marine Captain, who might be carrying what looks like a sword, but is actually carrying a thunder hammer, even though loads of other models in their army might be carrying swords being played as swords.

So, like Smudge has said in other threads, if the models don't appear to have multi-rules that all look alike, I'd say it's fine. All my Guardian spears are "counts as" Phyrite spears until my parts I ordered arrive, which is fine, because they are ALL that weapon. If you have 3 Sgts each with a Phase blade that are different weapons; one is a phase blade, one is a maul, one is a power sword, then we will get into a sticky wicket because I have no way of telling the difference at a glance.

BTW, totally agree it's a GREAT looking weapon.

I'd have no issue with it.

Personally, I've always been a fan of modelling for flavour/coolness rather than exact WISIWIG.

Depends entirely on the weapon and "rule of cool". In that specific example I would prefer it be modelled as a massive, two-handed blade a la an Eviscerator to make it distinct.

I mean, if it were me, I wouldn't do it personally, I'd say it was a power sword not fist, as the thing looks sword like.
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But I wouldnt refuse to play against you if you said it was a fist. Particularly if it is just a one off on a character.

BUDFORCE wrote:
I mean, if it were me, I wouldn't do it personally, I'd say it was a power sword not fist, as the thing looks sword like.
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But I wouldnt refuse to play against you if you said it was a fist. Particularly if it is just a one off on a character.

Yeah, it's kind of a "I want my cake and to smash you with it too" situation. I like the look of the Xeno-blade for at least 1 of my Sgts to give them character, but game-wise I want him equipped with a Fist. So fluff-wise it can be a Xeno-Relic Blade and the -1 to hit can be from some weird Xeno-magic rather than because it's heavy

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The rule of thumb we use around here is anything that is not represented as something else in the army. For example I use volkite to represent inferno bolters.

As for character weapons representing other weapons we are much looser on that. Its just accepted that a cool model shouldn't need to be changed to change its wargear.

I'd not accept your knife as a p.fist. If you want the benefits of a p.fist? Then equip the model with something resembling a fist.

So in my opinion, a power sword essentially represents a melee weapon, a plasma gun a special, and a lascannon as a heavy so I'd say it's fine.

Edit: I think it's a bit much to expect everyones models to be wysiwyg

I think there is a lot to be said that a player that even recognizes a xenophage blade isn't a regular power sword is also the kind of player that knows Primaris can't have it but can have a power sword. So it is probably a count as/unique variant of a power sword without even asking about it.

I wouldn't go with it being a powerfist though. Surely, it can't be that hard to get a hold of a powerfist and model it on a Primaris?

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Surely, it can't be that hard to get a hold of a powerfist and model it on a Primaris?

Indeed not as my other 2 Sgts are modeled with Fists and I have a fist or 2 spare in my bitz box. But that isn't the point. While I want you use all Power fists on my Sgt (every Sgt in my list), I'd like some variety at least visually and I want someone in my list to have a Xeno-blade.

So modeling 1 of my Sgts differently, with a Xeno-blade, achieves this. And by having it clear in my list that EVERY Sgt has a Fist, I don't anticipate any issues with opponents.
Thematically, it very easy to extrapolate that a particular Xenophase blade acts differently than another as if may not be made of the same Xeno tech (some could be modified Necron tech, others could be Eldar, etc).

The particular blade my Sgt could be wielding might vibrate with an energy that allows it to cut easily into tougher targets, but is harder to handle, thus X2 Str, -1 to hit

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A guy at my store doesn't like how powerfists or thunder hammers look like. He does like sword though. So his Thunder Hammers are all gigantic two handed chain swords.

I'd be okay with it within reason.

If you fielded an entire army where the models are using counts-as rules, I'd have a hard time remembering what I'm fighting.

If it's just a single model, yeah, sure.

In that case, like techsoldaten, I don't see much of an issue then.

I have one rule on this.

1. Item A is Item A. If your prefer the look of a melta gun to a plasma gun, I'm cool with that as I appreciate that people should have the models they like to build, paint and look at on the table top. However that better means everyone carry a melta gun bit is really carrying plasma gun. I'm not big on fighting an army that I need a flow chart to figure out what is what.

My only exception to this is if you convert something out of new parts (I make an exception for older minis since no one should not be able to use something they bought years ago before size creep) that is clearly either much larger or smaller than it's current model. That almost always comes not from some creative urge but a way to exploit something the current rules favor.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Depends entirely on the weapon and "rule of cool". In that specific example I would prefer it be modelled as a massive, two-handed blade a la an Eviscerator to make it distinct.

So, are we just going to ignore my easy fix to this or not?

People have been doing counts-as power fists the above way for years. There is (was) even a precedent with two characters having weapons to be able to be used in such a way (Grimnar and the Emperor’s Champ. Though the latter does not have that rule anymore iirc).

Long as your proxy weapon is consistent and one is not a maul, xenophase blade and a chainsword all for different members of the army.

If you said, all my plasma guns are melta guns that's fine. Long as there of a rough size match and you can identify what is meant to be what, no problems

So long you are consitent i would never have an issue with it.

Altough proxing a sword for a fist is a bit wierd nothing out of the ordinary.
you could model the lad with the mordhau grip / and or dual wielding. That would make it even clearer.
Altough manipulating the swords of GW is highly annoying, sincerly someone that turned failbaddon into a CSM lord.

Give him a powerfist, holding a xenophase blade. Otherwise he's really misleading.

Well, for casual play it will be fine.
But for competitive play in a tourney you better get the okay from the organizer.

It looks very different to a power fist so I would say power sword to avoid confusion.

 jhe90 wrote:
Long as your proxy weapon is consistent and one is not a maul, xenophase blade and a chainsword all for different members of the army.

If you said, all my plasma guns are melta guns that's fine. Long as there of a rough size match and you can identify what is meant to be what, no problems

I think it may have something to do with effort too. If someone goes all incierators are psycannons, then people may as not be as accepting as to someone liking melta weapons and puting in 60 hours extra work to make his 30 hellblaster look as if they were carrying melta weapons.

Karol wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Long as your proxy weapon is consistent and one is not a maul, xenophase blade and a chainsword all for different members of the army.

If you said, all my plasma guns are melta guns that's fine. Long as there of a rough size match and you can identify what is meant to be what, no problems

I think it may have something to do with effort too. If someone goes all incierators are psycannons, then people may as not be as accepting as to someone liking melta weapons and puting in 60 hours extra work to make his 30 hellblaster look as if they were carrying melta weapons.

Yeah. That's a fair point. Even if they where out of scale a little but really well converted and someone had put some real work into them I'd not complain. Od be more curious how they where made than worried about game terms as much.

I wouldn't care as long as its different. now if it just like painted like gunmetal grey or silver i would side eye it first. but if its got like a shimmer effect and looks like something very different from just a close combat or chain sword then sideeye is removed. I still remember a guy who would show up and all tac marines had bolters but just one had a "special weapon" per squad. this was 7th and no matter what angle you removed casualties from somehow the special weapon model was always the last in the squad. If the player were any good i would have been annoyed by this but mostly i called it a handicap in that even using a gladius formation he was losing to my orks.

The problem is magnified by just being DW. Every model is essentially a character that you can alter the loadout to, without any of the actual character rules. It's hard to build a DW army with such a rapidly shifting meta.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem is magnified by just being DW. Every model is essentially a character that you can alter the loadout to, without any of the actual character rules. It's hard to build a DW army with such a rapidly shifting meta.

For DW Vets, that's true, but Intercessors are a bit more "stable" in what they can take, i.e. a Bolt rifle variant only.

For clarity, I'll have 3 Fortis units, all with Fist Sgts. 2 of them are actually modeled with Fists (but are Reiver bodies because I like the skull face and will not be using Reivers, ever)
But my "primary" Sgt is modeled using the Dark Imperium Lt with the power sword/pistol. I swapped the blade for a single edged blade (GK falcion with a bit of length added) and painted it green & turquoise like the Xeno-Blade

I want my Sgts to stand out and look cool, but I make it clear to my opponent that every Sgt has a Power Fist with no exceptions.

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I really don't think this is a terribly good counts as. The unit has an option to take a sword. You give them a sword... except it is a fist!

If you want to use the xenophase bit on a Primaris, better use to represent the Thief of Secrets on a captain.

 Crimson wrote:
I really don't think this is a terribly good counts as. The unit has an option to take a sword. You give them a sword... except it is a fist!

If you want to use the xenophase bit on a Primaris, better use to represent the Thief of Secrets on a captain.

My Captains have Hammers and I'm already using a different Relic (Beacon)

When I modeled the Xeno-blade, my original intention was to just use it as a Power sword, but as my list started to take shape, it kept coming up 7-8pts under. I have a personal preference to always be less than 5 pts to the limit, so swapping the 4ppm sword for a 9mm fist just kept scratching at my brain. So with a bit of imagination, I came to the conclusion that a unique Xeno-blade that has the same affect as a Fist should be acceptable (because cutting off my well-painted awesome-looking sword isn't an option)

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I’d have no problem with this at all, regardless of other melee weapons or proxies in the army.