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2019/09/20 17:11:40
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Karol wrote: Well the never say never part died, the moment they squated WFB and clearly are phasing out non primaris marines. Now this doesn't mean I would not want GW to update all armies with good rules. that would be awesome. But at least from my perspective, I would rather have them moved GK from index straight to narrative only, just like the old WFB armies.
Did we read the same codex? Or the same supplements? Do you live in an alternate reality where these books have not given a buch of huge buffs to the rules for oldmarines (or am I in an alternate reality where they did)?
Old marines are not being phased out in any way, thier rules just got stronger; they just won't be receiving any new models.
And, you know what? No new models for the old marines line is fine. I have been playing 40k for 20 years, 3rd edition brought out a nice plastic kit for tac marines, 5th edition gave them an updated kit, so did 6th.
All the old marine units have models already, and only need some minor fixes to rules; which GW has started with.
Most of the strats are for oldmarines units in the dex and supplements so far. Ironhands are actually better at fielding oldmarime units than primaris(buffs do little for repulsor variants, but everythin for rhino-based tanks, devs, scouts, and tac marines) whitescars still buff the crud out of bikes, ultras help everyone, and ravenguard still want scouts and vanguard vets.
The only thing the codex has that is purely "look how awesome primaris can be" is Obscuration discipline for phobos libbys, which only effect other phobos primaris units. Gravis needed the Wound buff, the loss of killshot and linebreaker is no issue since "rule of 3" is in play at tourneys and preds/vindis no longer come in vehicle squadrons.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
2019/09/20 18:04:08
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Karol wrote: Could be. I have absolutly no idea what could be in the event books. I hope they are not like the supplements. ton of wasted pages of lore, and 3-4 pages of rules max,
No lore is wasted. Just because you like crunch more than context doesn't make the lore wasted.
And at minimum we know plastic Banshees and Incuubi are coming along with their respective named characters. With that may come rules as well.
2019/09/20 18:06:30
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Karol wrote: Could be. I have absolutly no idea what could be in the event books. I hope they are not like the supplements. ton of wasted pages of lore, and 3-4 pages of rules max,
For someone who kvetches incessantly about how rules dont match fluff, you've got a pretty dismissive attitude towards that same fluff.
2019/09/20 18:34:50
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Karol wrote: Could be. I have absolutly no idea what could be in the event books. I hope they are not like the supplements. ton of wasted pages of lore, and 3-4 pages of rules max,
For someone who kvetches incessantly about how rules dont match fluff, you've got a pretty dismissive attitude towards that same fluff.
I've started to form the opinion that for Karol complaining is the hobby.
2019/09/20 18:59:33
Subject: Re:Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
BrianDavion wrote: what GKs need is tools for their tool chest, expand the line a bit.
A basic GK Strike is 21 pts.
Maybe not too much for a Marine with storm bolter and power weapon, but with only one attack not really effective in cc.
Also on the defensive side, with some kind of aegis armor they should be harder to hit, say by a handicap of -1.
They're effectively 3 attacks now. Plus a cast and deny both with a +1. GK should have access to all the new lores, which would set them up a bit better.
2019/09/20 19:37:55
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Karol wrote: Could be. I have absolutly no idea what could be in the event books. I hope they are not like the supplements. ton of wasted pages of lore, and 3-4 pages of rules max,
For someone who kvetches incessantly about how rules dont match fluff, you've got a pretty dismissive attitude towards that same fluff.
I've started to form the opinion that for Karol complaining is the hobby.
Karol has the right to complain as a GK player.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/09/20 19:57:51
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Karol wrote: Could be. I have absolutly no idea what could be in the event books. I hope they are not like the supplements. ton of wasted pages of lore, and 3-4 pages of rules max,
For someone who kvetches incessantly about how rules dont match fluff, you've got a pretty dismissive attitude towards that same fluff.
I've started to form the opinion that for Karol complaining is the hobby.
Karol has the right to complain as a GK player.
If he didn't derail every topic into a complaint fest about them I'd agree.
We all know GK are bad. I sympathize heavilly, but I do get tired of everytime he starts up everything is twisted into talking about GK.
2019/09/20 20:45:12
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
If he didn't derail every topic into a complaint fest about them I'd agree.
We all know GK are bad. I sympathize heavily, but I do get tired of every time he starts up everything is twisted into talking about GK.
This is where I am at with him along with a number of Ork players on Dakka. There aren't all that many Dakkanauts I can nail down what there army/primary army is save the usual suspects mucking up every thread to be moan their army's lot in this edition. I am pretty sure Dakka gets it/don't care or don't care because they keep be moaning the point.
Look, if you are local to me; we can house rule whatever you need to feel your army is even with mine. It shouldn't be hard. I am a terrible player. Grey Knights players want 5++, extra AP, an extra 500 points and/or some Errata/FAQ stuff reversed, cool. Ork Players want cheaper stompas, Lootas and Burnas great or anything else you want. I just want a good game (good game defined as one that comes down to the last few dice rolls). However, from 100-1000+ miles away, there isn't exactly anything I can do about weak factions this edition. I am also pretty sure the 40k designers aren't on these forums looking at their complaints. So constantly thread crapping and annoying other posters isn't really accomplishing anything either as far as I can see.
2019/09/20 23:21:19
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
If he didn't derail every topic into a complaint fest about them I'd agree.
We all know GK are bad. I sympathize heavily, but I do get tired of every time he starts up everything is twisted into talking about GK.
This is where I am at with him along with a number of Ork players on Dakka. There aren't all that many Dakkanauts I can nail down what there army/primary army is save the usual suspects mucking up every thread to be moan their army's lot in this edition. I am pretty sure Dakka gets it/don't care or don't care because they keep be moaning the point.
Look, if you are local to me; we can house rule whatever you need to feel your army is even with mine. It shouldn't be hard. I am a terrible player. Grey Knights players want 5++, extra AP, an extra 500 points and/or some Errata/FAQ stuff reversed, cool. Ork Players want cheaper stompas, Lootas and Burnas great or anything else you want. I just want a good game (good game defined as one that comes down to the last few dice rolls). However, from 100-1000+ miles away, there isn't exactly anything I can do about weak factions this edition. I am also pretty sure the 40k designers aren't on these forums looking at their complaints. So constantly thread crapping and annoying other posters isn't really accomplishing anything either as far as I can see.
Summed up nicely. As a Sisters player I really get it but at some point it's time to step back and stop making everything about how bad -your- army has it when the topic has little to nothing to do with that.
Heck, I'm building a 1k Nephrekh Necron force to play with this weekend and the final 2k probably won't even have troops because they are that underwhelming. So I get the Xenos plight too. But I'll be darned if every topic is going to be about how bad my army is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/20 23:21:52
2019/09/21 00:38:29
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
AngryAngel80 wrote: That all said, can we talk more on how screwed over GKs are ? It's one of those tales of love, passion, hope and hopelessness.
It also has nothing to do with the 8.5 Marine book and supplements.
Back on topic, I kind of wish we were seeing more unique unit varients in these books. Like give us a chapter specific upgrade sprue for a given unit to put a bit of a flavorful spin on things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/21 01:02:33
2019/09/21 01:05:58
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
AngryAngel80 wrote: That all said, can we talk more on how screwed over GKs are ? It's one of those tales of love, passion, hope and hopelessness.
It also has nothing to do with the 8.5 Marine book and supplements.
Back on topic, I kind of wish we were seeing more unique unit varients in these books. Like give us a chapter specific upgrade sprue for a given unit to put a bit of a flavorful spin on things.
isn't that what the chapter upgrade sprue is for?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/09/21 01:19:50
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Now that the kit is out I doubt we'll see that. We have more options to see whole new units as opposed to upgrades like that to current units. Just my theory on that mind you but they don't seem to do that much.
2019/09/21 03:07:26
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
AngryAngel80 wrote: Now that the kit is out I doubt we'll see that. We have more options to see whole new units as opposed to upgrades like that to current units. Just my theory on that mind you but they don't seem to do that much.
If the Horus Heresy can do it, I feel like 40k could do it. I mean it could be smaller things like Heavy Flamers in an Intercessor squad, but the point is that if Ultramarines can have Tyrranic War Vets or Templars their Crusader squads, I feel every subtraction should have a unit varient all their own. Just give it a unique datasheet to keep it from bleeding over into other rulesets and you're golden.
I know we didn't get that, and likely won't for the remaining books, but the opportunity was there and I wish they ran with it.
2019/09/21 03:33:57
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
AngryAngel80 wrote: Now that the kit is out I doubt we'll see that. We have more options to see whole new units as opposed to upgrades like that to current units. Just my theory on that mind you but they don't seem to do that much.
If the Horus Heresy can do it, I feel like 40k could do it. I mean it could be smaller things like Heavy Flamers in an Intercessor squad, but the point is that if Ultramarines can have Tyrranic War Vets or Templars their Crusader squads, I feel every subtraction should have a unit varient all their own. Just give it a unique datasheet to keep it from bleeding over into other rulesets and you're golden.
I know we didn't get that, and likely won't for the remaining books, but the opportunity was there and I wish they ran with it.
crusader squads and tyrannic war vets are basicly legacy units, I don't really see them happening, that said if supplements etc are massivly popular I could see this eventually happening (especially when GW realizes people will only buy one Lysander, but will buy several "Imperial Fist Breacher squads") right now though the basic Primaris line need to be finished up so I doubt we'll see any. once we get the third wave of primaris I fully expect GW to start putting out chapter specific primaris squads.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/09/21 04:58:54
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Here's the thing, you're correct they could do it. However I don't think its what they want to do. I think at least for the near future they want primaris units to operate in a different way than tac squads.
I don't think you've been noticing but they don't like options and variety for many of these new squads. It seems to be they don't want to worry or be bothered for specialist type differences in the squads.
Like I bet we'll eventually see chapter specific units, but I don't know if we'll see differences in gear in the squad or more of the same everyone is armed with this, or that.
Right now its one of the things that oldmarine lovers, myself included, don't like about the primaris they don't feel as open to customizing squads.
Though they get around that somewhat if they just pile up buffing special rules like in the marine codex or let you mix and match unit types like you can with Deathwatch that mitigates that feeling a bit.
2019/09/21 05:53:58
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Scout Squad. Squad can take Bolters, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, CC weapons, one of two Heavy Weapons, in any combination you like.
Primaris:
You can take these Phobos Squads
Eliminators (Phobos with Sniper rifles)
Reivers (Phobos with CC weapons)
Incursors (Phobos with Bolter and CC weapons?)
Infiltrators (Phobos with a different Bolter)
Each of those units has really limited options within them. Those probably could have all been one unit, with the exception maybe of Eliminators. . . sorta? You could have just had a "Phobos Squad" entry and allowed the different gear.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/21 05:55:25
Yeah but then we get into the whole bloat issue of spreading out entries for the sake of minor differences. Like terminator squads. Yeah some of those entries could be handled with a more pressed in entry but GW likes spreading them for some odd reason.
Like, and this isn't primaris focused but Fenrisian wolves, nice looking unit, but ultimately meh. They could have the unit entry for Fenrisian wolves and Cyberwolves be handled int he same entry with some minor extra writing, instead they are two seperate unit entries in the book, then the differences in them are quite minor. GW have a real love of doing that in unit entries.
2019/09/21 06:22:25
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Most of the Terminator differences have to do with being different boxes. The differences for the Primaris units is much like the differences for Stormcast chamber units: it lets them add to the codex without need to rework existing kits (a plus since plastic molds have a very long life span) while creating different feeling armies despite being largely mechanically similar just by changing the silloute. I mean compare Raven Guard and Iron Hands. Both get painted black but the Raven Guard will more likely be in Phobos while the Iron Hand is going to be in Tacticus or Gravis armour.
2019/09/21 07:42:19
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Primaris having limited options is the best thing about them.
Notice how the units have unique wargear than doesn't repeat? Hellblasters have their own plasma, Inceptors a different variant. Intercessors have their own types of Bolt Rifle, Reivers and Infiltrators have different ones, etc.
This means that in the future, if they need to rebalance weapons or change the rules of one type of gun, it doesn't affect every unit in the codex. Every unit and weapon can be adjusted by itself without having far reaching consequences.
It makes Primaris far easier to rebalance, update or upgrade. We saw with the new codex how Intercessors had the profile of some of thr bolt rifles altered - it's a lot better for GW to be able to adjust wargear like this on a unit by unit basis. If you take classic Marines and update one weapon - eg: a plasma gun, that could have far reaching consequences because there are 10+ different units that can spam it.
On top of what I've mentioned above it's also easier and cheaper from a hobby perspective.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/21 07:44:59
-~Ishagu~-
2019/09/21 08:18:17
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Ishagu wrote: Primaris having limited options is the best thing about them.
Notice how the units have unique wargear than doesn't repeat? Hellblasters have their own plasma, Inceptors a different variant. Intercessors have their own types of Bolt Rifle, Reivers and Infiltrators have different ones, etc.
This means that in the future, if they need to rebalance weapons or change the rules of one type of gun, it doesn't affect every unit in the codex. Every unit and weapon can be adjusted by itself without having far reaching consequences.
It makes Primaris far easier to rebalance, update or upgrade. We saw with the new codex how Intercessors had the profile of some of thr bolt rifles altered - it's a lot better for GW to be able to adjust wargear like this on a unit by unit basis. If you take classic Marines and update one weapon - eg: a plasma gun, that could have far reaching consequences because there are 10+ different units that can spam it.
On top of what I've mentioned above it's also easier and cheaper from a hobby perspective.
Very solid point, and not one I'd thought of. Most armies in the game have fairly unique wargear with only a little overlap so it makes sense to take Marines that way in the long run as well.
It makes me a little expectant that they may do something similar with the Sisters of Battle release in a couple months.
2019/09/21 08:33:16
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Ishagu wrote: Primaris having limited options is the best thing about them.
Notice how the units have unique wargear than doesn't repeat? Hellblasters have their own plasma, Inceptors a different variant. Intercessors have their own types of Bolt Rifle, Reivers and Infiltrators have different ones, etc.
This means that in the future, if they need to rebalance weapons or change the rules of one type of gun, it doesn't affect every unit in the codex. Every unit and weapon can be adjusted by itself without having far reaching consequences.
It makes Primaris far easier to rebalance, update or upgrade. We saw with the new codex how Intercessors had the profile of some of thr bolt rifles altered - it's a lot better for GW to be able to adjust wargear like this on a unit by unit basis. If you take classic Marines and update one weapon - eg: a plasma gun, that could have far reaching consequences because there are 10+ different units that can spam it.
On top of what I've mentioned above it's also easier and cheaper from a hobby perspective.
All of which adds up to them feeling really game-ey, imo. Not to mention bloating the crap out of the wargear section. How many Bolter variants are there now?
Ishagu wrote: Primaris having limited options is the best thing about them.
Notice how the units have unique wargear than doesn't repeat? Hellblasters have their own plasma, Inceptors a different variant. Intercessors have their own types of Bolt Rifle, Reivers and Infiltrators have different ones, etc.
This means that in the future, if they need to rebalance weapons or change the rules of one type of gun, it doesn't affect every unit in the codex. Every unit and weapon can be adjusted by itself without having far reaching consequences.
It makes Primaris far easier to rebalance, update or upgrade. We saw with the new codex how Intercessors had the profile of some of thr bolt rifles altered - it's a lot better for GW to be able to adjust wargear like this on a unit by unit basis. If you take classic Marines and update one weapon - eg: a plasma gun, that could have far reaching consequences because there are 10+ different units that can spam it.
On top of what I've mentioned above it's also easier and cheaper from a hobby perspective.
All of which adds up to them feeling really game-ey, imo. Not to mention bloating the crap out of the wargear section. How many Bolter variants are there now?
Unlike the past those varients are self contained to the units that carry them though so it's easier to keep track of the varients.
2019/09/21 10:28:26
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Ishagu wrote: Primaris having limited options is the best thing about them.
Notice how the units have unique wargear than doesn't repeat? Hellblasters have their own plasma, Inceptors a different variant. Intercessors have their own types of Bolt Rifle, Reivers and Infiltrators have different ones, etc.
This means that in the future, if they need to rebalance weapons or change the rules of one type of gun, it doesn't affect every unit in the codex. Every unit and weapon can be adjusted by itself without having far reaching consequences.
It makes Primaris far easier to rebalance, update or upgrade. We saw with the new codex how Intercessors had the profile of some of thr bolt rifles altered - it's a lot better for GW to be able to adjust wargear like this on a unit by unit basis. If you take classic Marines and update one weapon - eg: a plasma gun, that could have far reaching consequences because there are 10+ different units that can spam it.
On top of what I've mentioned above it's also easier and cheaper from a hobby perspective.
All of which adds up to them feeling really game-ey, imo. Not to mention bloating the crap out of the wargear section. How many Bolter variants are there now?
Unlike the past those varients are self contained to the units that carry them though so it's easier to keep track of the varients.
Was Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Combi Bolter, Storm Bolter, Hurricane Bolter and Heavy Bolter really so taxing? Especially as all but one of those have the exact same Strength and AP, and two of those now have the exact same stats? For the sake of thoroughness, add in Special Issue Boltgun, and Master-Crafted Boltgun. Note, the Special Issue Boltgun was collapsed out of choices of ammunition for a standard boltgun. So on the one hand that was streamlined, but on the other hand we have:
Go back and read the points on balancing and how they were able to adjust the Auto bolt rifle without needing to also adjust other units (like Agressors who could have just been written to use auto bolt rifles). Honestly I see no draw backs, especially when you can just look at the datasheet and have all the weapon's rules right there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/21 10:49:14
2019/09/21 10:54:56
Subject: Your Opinion on the New Space Marine Codexes
Karol wrote: Well the never say never part died, the moment they squated WFB and clearly are phasing out non primaris marines.
If they are "clearly phasing out non-Primaris marines", how come all the non-Primaris units are still on sale and in the new codex (and supplements) with new rules? And how come they've just re-released the Scouts and Rhino variants in new packaging to match the latest branding? Don't tell me, it's now the next SM codex that will definitely be Primaris-only...
ClockworkZion wrote: Go back and read the points on balancing and how they were able to adjust the Auto bolt rifle without needing to also adjust other units (like Agressors who could have just been written to use auto bolt rifles). Honestly I see no draw backs, especially when you can just look at the datasheet and have all the weapon's rules right there.
It's just unnecessary bloat, balance does not have to be that granular. Having to look them up is a drawback. Being hard for your opponent to remember is also a drawback.
Karol wrote: Well the never say never part died, the moment they squated WFB and clearly are phasing out non primaris marines.
If they are "clearly phasing out non-Primaris marines", how come all the non-Primaris units are still on sale and in the new codex (and supplements) with new rules? And how come they've just re-released the Scouts and Rhino variants in new packaging to match the latest branding? Don't tell me, it's now the next SM codex that will definitely be Primaris-only...
The more I think about it, the less likely I think they'll drop 'em. They must have well over a hundred BL books featuring classic marines now. I'd be shocked if they'd drop a model line that is so heavily featured in their lore.
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