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 Insectum7 wrote:

The more I think about it, the less likely I think they'll drop 'em. They must have well over a hundred BL books featuring classic marines now. I'd be shocked if they'd drop a model line that is so heavily featured in their lore.

You still do not understand that to most people and to newbies in particular there isn't some huge binary difference. The primaris are just better looking space marines. When people are reading some BL books about marines murdering implausible number of enemies they're really not thinking about what exact shape of knee armour the model that would represent them in 40K would have or what exact stats their bolt weapons have.

 Insectum7 wrote:


The more I think about it, the less likely I think they'll drop 'em. They must have well over a hundred BL books featuring classic marines now. I'd be shocked if they'd drop a model line that is so heavily featured in their lore.

They've dropped Squats, Bretonians, and Tomb Kings already, they wouldn't blink to drop 1.0's for Primaris, if it improves the game quality and thus sales. They're in no hurry to bring back the Primarchs and look at how many books they're in.

Can't wait until every marine spikes in point costs because of a single supplement destroying the meta game. Ultramarine intercessors too strong? Better nerf blood angel ones too just to be safe. This is going to make balance much more difficult and probably worse. Then again marines could just as easily go untouched if it is the same playtesters that decided "Castellan is fine no point changes needed in Chapter Approved" "Cultists are worth 1ppm more than Guardsmen and will require further nerfs"

I think the phasing out is sort of mentality.
It is entirely possible GW never ever releases new imperial mini-marines. In which case you could argue they are phased out, even if they keep on producing rules for them.

But then you can see certain kits go on and on. I mean up until last week, would you have said GW were "phasing out" aspect warriors? You could still buy them, but they hadn't had a new kit since they got made into finecast back in 2006 or something.

So... GW could always bring mini-marines back. Or do whatever they want really.

With a Marine hat on I think the mini-codexes are great, and with a CSM hat on I am intensely jealous and bitter. GW may know there isn't the same demand - but I wish someone could have looked at Alpha Legion/Word Bearers/Iron Warriors and Night Lords in the way these 6 chapters have been looked at. (I mean Alpha Legion are still probably okay - but still). I figure World Eaters and Emperor's Children may something next year. Maybe. But regular CSM are probably boned on getting anything else for 2 years. Its a bit like those poor unfortunates who got a codex at the end of 6th edition.

Anyway I don't see GW going "tactical marine? What is a tactical marine? To the maelstrom with you." any time soon - and worrying what state the rules for your minis may be in by say 2030 is just an excuse to never buy anything.

Tyel wrote:
I mean up until last week, would you have said GW were "phasing out" aspect warriors?

Someone has to fill the MEQ role in the game as marines are moving towards highest elite infantry point. That way there will never be even an image of marines fighting an equal force - as heroes, they will always be surrounded by large amount of enemies, troops-wise anyway.

 DominayTrix wrote:
Can't wait until every marine spikes in point costs because of a single supplement destroying the meta game. Ultramarine intercessors too strong? Better nerf blood angel ones too just to be safe. This is going to make balance much more difficult and probably worse. Then again marines could just as easily go untouched if it is the same playtesters that decided "Castellan is fine no point changes needed in Chapter Approved" "Cultists are worth 1ppm more than Guardsmen and will require further nerfs"

Well, that is the problem with these insanely powerful subfaction rules. If the same unit is much more powerful under one subfaction than under another, assigning a correct point cost is literally impossible.

Why don't they just treat armies as a mono entity and give them specific points cost. So lets say one marine army is melee heavy, so its melee units or upgrades are cheaper, or they have more access to them. At the same time the same melee units in a shoting marine army would be more limited.

All they would have to do is just put soup as an option in narrative/open games. This way people with normal armies wouldn't be punished, there would be no problem of soup being superior to non soup or non soup only working if it is old Inari tier of broken.

 Shadenuat wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Primaris having limited options is the best thing about them.

And also extremely un-marine and unfluffy as they're basically Aspect Warriors as opposed to a flexible unit which can do a bit of everything.

Marine wargear options date back to early editions where the game has a greater resemblence to Kill Team than modern 40k.

Some of you mention wargear bloat. It's not really bloat because the weapons are unit exclusive and the rules are on the unit datasheets. It's actually a more efficient system.

your joking right? how are the rules on a data sheet, when part of them are in the codex, part of them in a supplement, and those are modifed by a CA. And am only listing options you have to pay for here.

It maybe a more efficient system to get money out of people, that is for sure, Because instead of giving players one could book they could use for sometime, they have to constatnly buy new stuff. And that isn't even the worse option, because the worse is when GW decides to skip updating your rules, and they just reprint the same rules over and over again without fixing a darn thing.

Karol wrote:
your joking right? how are the rules on a data sheet, when part of them are in the codex, part of them in a supplement, and those are modifed by a CA. And am only listing options you have to pay for here.

It maybe a more efficient system to get money out of people, that is for sure, Because instead of giving players one could book they could use for sometime, they have to constatnly buy new stuff. And that isn't even the worse option, because the worse is when GW decides to skip updating your rules, and they just reprint the same rules over and over again without fixing a darn thing.

If they give you a new unit it's unique wargear is listed on the sheet. The only wargear spread around into new books are relics.

And the only thing that got a "reprint" was the 8.1 CSM codex that rolled most of Vigilus and some updated rules into the CSM book (and was likely done along side.or before Vigilus was completed as a stop gap so they don't have to keep Vigilus in circulation long term before the CSM book gets a real update).

I feel you're letting your biases about Grey Knights cloud your judgement to how they are actively doing things right now.

Yeah, I must say I really like how units with the new style of packaging and assembly booklets have the datasheets of the units on them and their respective weapons. It makes things super simple do when you literally only have to point out the shared faction ability in your rulebook, and then just have the stratagem card deck (if you use one) and the cut out datasheets of each unit you're using just on the side of the board so you don't need to leaf through the codex to double check something.

I just wish those datasheets had *every* wargear option on them, but I suppose moving to fewer loadouts make that easier.


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 Shadenuat wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Primaris having limited options is the best thing about them.

And also extremely un-marine and unfluffy as they're basically Aspect Warriors as opposed to a flexible unit which can do a bit of everything.

So the Horus Heresy wasn't fought by Space Marines? Because Legion Astartes didn't have mixed squad weaponry.

 Ishagu wrote:

Some of you mention wargear bloat. It's not really bloat because the weapons are unit exclusive and the rules are on the unit datasheets. It's actually a more efficient system.

It's bloat.

There might be more "Bolt" weapons than the entirety of the Tyranid ranged arsenal now.




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 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

The more I think about it, the less likely I think they'll drop 'em. They must have well over a hundred BL books featuring classic marines now. I'd be shocked if they'd drop a model line that is so heavily featured in their lore.

You still do not understand that to most people and to newbies in particular there isn't some huge binary difference. The primaris are just better looking space marines. When people are reading some BL books about marines murdering implausible number of enemies they're really not thinking about what exact shape of knee armour the model that would represent them in 40K would have or what exact stats their bolt weapons have.

Q: "What's a Terminator/Land Raider/Rhino?"
A: "Oh. It's a thing only Chaos can have now."

Are you really looking forward to this?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Q: "What's a Terminator/Land Raider/Rhino?"
A: "Oh. It's a thing only Chaos can have now."

There might be primaris terminators at some point, Jes hinted that there would be more armour types. As for the vehicles, I don't really care, not that there is a logical reason why the primaris couldn't use those. My upcoming SoB army will inherit the some of the vehicles of my retired old marines though.

Q: "What's a Terminator/Land Raider/Rhino?"
A: "Oh. It's a thing only Chaos can have now."

I don't think anyone expects that to happen anytime soon./

Lol some of the bias and unreasonable dislike and anger towards new things is a bit much.

Nurgle has a hold over many here. Entropy and stagnation is what they desire. Change is anathema to them.

 Ishagu wrote:
Lol some of the bias and unreasonable dislike and anger towards new things is a bit much.

Nurgle has a hold over many here. Entropy and stagnation is what they desire. Change is anathema to them.

There does indeed seem to be an innate conservitive nature among many people regarding space Marines. much of whats been levied agaisnt primaris you also heard from the stormtalon gunship and the centurion.

Yeah we see the same repeat every release cycle. It was certain the exact same story prior to Primaris even being unveiled.

The Centurion backlash was biblical, and many were even angry about grav Guns being re-introduced.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I feel you're letting your biases about Grey Knights cloud your judgement to how they are actively doing things right now.

GK don't have any outside rules, supplements or stuff in vigilus. So no am not comparing this to what GK do or rather don't get. If someone wants to play chaos for example, they need the codex, the index, the 1ksons codex for ahriman minimum, probaly the chaos demon codex, and the CA for points costs for the unupdated 1ksons and demons. And then vigilus rules to have better renegade rules instead of the bad legion ones. that is at least 4 books, no index units, no FW stuff.

I don't think anyone expects that to happen anytime soon./

but if GW gives them bad rules or worse, bad rules and high point costs, then it doesn't matter if the models are legal or open play only. People won't be using them.

The Centurion backlash was biblical, and many were even angry about grav Guns being re-introduced.

But where they good or bad, when they came out? Because it doesn't matter what people write about stuff, if to play they need to buy the units anyway. Same the other way around, being angry about something that doesn't get used by a large enough group is just ignored by the majority of players.

Karol wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I feel you're letting your biases about Grey Knights cloud your judgement to how they are actively doing things right now.

GK don't have any outside rules, supplements or stuff in vigilus. So no am not comparing this to what GK do or rather don't get. If someone wants to play chaos for example, they need the codex, the index, the 1ksons codex for ahriman minimum, probaly the chaos demon codex, and the CA for points costs for the unupdated 1ksons and demons. And then vigilus rules to have better renegade rules instead of the bad legion ones. that is at least 4 books, no index units, no FW stuff.

I don't think anyone expects that to happen anytime soon./

but if GW gives them bad rules or worse, bad rules and high point costs, then it doesn't matter if the models are legal or open play only. People won't be using them.

The Centurion backlash was biblical, and many were even angry about grav Guns being re-introduced.

But where they good or bad, when they came out? Because it doesn't matter what people write about stuff, if to play they need to buy the units anyway. Same the other way around, being angry about something that doesn't get used by a large enough group is just ignored by the majority of players.

If someone wants to play Chaos all they need is to pick their flavor of chaos and buy that one codex. You only "need" the rest when you want to start making soup. Your making claims with no factual backing.

And I don't care what the "people" do. It's up to you to make your own fun regardless of what army or game you play.

BrianDavion wrote:

Q: "What's a Terminator/Land Raider/Rhino?"
A: "Oh. It's a thing only Chaos can have now."

I don't think anyone expects that to happen anytime soon./

I don't expect it to happen soon either. If at all, really, because I still believe that they won't kill off so many of the units that have been read about in black library, and been huge sellers for 30 years.

But it sure seems like some people wouldnt mind it if it happened, maybe even cheer it on.


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 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah we see the same repeat every release cycle. It was certain the exact same story prior to Primaris even being unveiled.

The Centurion backlash was biblical, and many were even angry about grav Guns being re-introduced.

I am guessing that if the situation were reversed, and Primaris all had the same bolt weapons. . . If someone complained about it you would defend the lack of 20 new bolt weapons just as hard as you currently defend the bloat.


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BrianDavion wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Lol some of the bias and unreasonable dislike and anger towards new things is a bit much.

Nurgle has a hold over many here. Entropy and stagnation is what they desire. Change is anathema to them.

There does indeed seem to be an innate conservitive nature among many people regarding space Marines. much of whats been levied agaisnt primaris you also heard from the stormtalon gunship and the centurion.

I would think that this is because Space Marines have been incredibly well defined at high resolution for a looooong time. The Chapter setup has been stable, the doctrinal organization has been stable, the imagery has been stable, the description stable. On top of that the faction itself is described as being conservative. Chapter organization has been laid out over and over again for a long time, with extremely little variation.

As for equipment, for a long time they could still just draw on the old Space Marine game, the Vindicator, Drop Pods, Thunderhawk were all around since the early versions of Epic back in late 1st edition.

But theres also the other piece that irks me, personally. If one faction all of a sudden has something cool/popular/different, there's this strange chance that it winds up being a Space Marine option or ability later on. Centurions when they came out were loyalist Oblitererators, but better. It's just sorta tacky.

It also just seems obviously sales driven. Find thing from faction gets positive response? Make a version for the most popular faction! Profit!

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Q: "What's a Terminator/Land Raider/Rhino?"
A: "Oh. It's a thing only Chaos can have now."

I don't think anyone expects that to happen anytime soon./

I don't expect it to happen soon either. If at all, really, because I still believe that they won't kill off so many of the units that have been read about in black library, and been huge sellers for 30 years.

But it sure seems like some people wouldnt mind it if it happened, maybe even cheer it on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah we see the same repeat every release cycle. It was certain the exact same story prior to Primaris even being unveiled.

The Centurion backlash was biblical, and many were even angry about grav Guns being re-introduced.

I am guessing that if the situation were reversed, and Primaris all had the same bolt weapons. . . If someone complained about it you would defend the lack of 20 new bolt weapons just as hard as you currently defend the bloat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Lol some of the bias and unreasonable dislike and anger towards new things is a bit much.

Nurgle has a hold over many here. Entropy and stagnation is what they desire. Change is anathema to them.

There does indeed seem to be an innate conservitive nature among many people regarding space Marines. much of whats been levied agaisnt primaris you also heard from the stormtalon gunship and the centurion.

I would think that this is because Space Marines have been incredibly well defined at high resolution for a looooong time. The Chapter setup has been stable, the doctrinal organization has been stable, the imagery has been stable, the description stable. On top of that the faction itself is described as being conservative. Chapter organization has been laid out over and over again for a long time, with extremely little variation.

As for equipment, for a long time they could still just draw on the old Space Marine game, the Vindicator, Drop Pods, Thunderhawk were all around since the early versions of Epic back in late 1st edition.

But theres also the other piece that irks me, personally. If one faction all of a sudden has something cool/popular/different, there's this strange chance that it winds up being a Space Marine option or ability later on. Centurions when they came out were loyalist Oblitererators, but better. It's just sorta tacky.

It also just seems obviously sales driven. Find thing from faction gets positive response? Make a version for the most popular faction! Profit!

I just want to touch on the whole "Centurions were Loyalist Obliterators, but better".

This is under the assumption that Oblits were ever really that good. They were just the best of a bad situation basically. Centurions themselves when introduced weren't even that good. It was the access to all the Characters that made them not terrible.

My opinion on the new codexes is that we're in for a few months of absolute dominance from the marines, and that hopefully they will be nerfed in the April 2020 FAQ to something reasonable.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Some of you mention wargear bloat. It's not really bloat because the weapons are unit exclusive and the rules are on the unit datasheets. It's actually a more efficient system.

It's bloat.

There might be more "Bolt" weapons than the entirety of the Tyranid ranged arsenal now.

From your perspective maybe. I can remember when all the wargear were on cardstock, Digital Weapons/Lasers, Refractor Fields, Conversion Fields, Displacer Fields, Power Fields, Power Axes, Swords, Mauls, Lances, Fists, and so on. Also, given that somewhere around half the Nid army doesn't have a ranged weapon... maybe not the best choice. I'm also not sure its accurate if you compare every iteration of a ranged weapon with every iteration of every combination of biomorphs/mutations/whatever the option system for Nids is called this go round.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

The more I think about it, the less likely I think they'll drop 'em. They must have well over a hundred BL books featuring classic marines now. I'd be shocked if they'd drop a model line that is so heavily featured in their lore.

You still do not understand that to most people and to newbies in particular there isn't some huge binary difference. The primaris are just better looking space marines. When people are reading some BL books about marines murdering implausible number of enemies they're really not thinking about what exact shape of knee armour the model that would represent them in 40K would have or what exact stats their bolt weapons have.

Q: "What's a Terminator/Land Raider/Rhino?"
A: "Oh. It's a thing only Chaos can have now."

Are you really looking forward to this?

Nope, I like my old models, nor do I want to see Grey Knights lose their Terminators, Custodes lose their Land Raiders, or Sisters lose their Rhinos.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Absolver Bolt Pistol
Assault Bolter
Auto Bolt Rifle
Master-Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Bolt Carbine
Bolt Rifle
Bolt Sniper rifle
Boltstorm Gauntlet
Heavy Bolt Pistol
Instigator Bolt Carbine
Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine
Marksman Bolt Carbine
Occulus Bolt Carbine
Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine
Stalker Bolt Rifle
Master-Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle

*Ironhail Heavy Stubber
*Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber

All of these things exist for a purpose, which is to offer a weapon that fits the intended role of the unit.

e.g. An assault bolter is a heavy bolter, but half range and assault. They COULD have said in the unit special rules that they suffer no move penalties, but also half range? That doesn't translate easily.

I never say centurions as loyalist oblits. mostly because oblits where, at their best, essentially a swiass army knife unit, Cneturions are "Space Marines, as improved by a Ork Mek. MOAR DAKKA! "

My opinion after much reading-

They are balanced, and most people don't realize what is actually powerful.

Most people look at IH and think they are the most competitive. They basically give up using tactical doctrine, and assault doctrine. Yeah they can move and fire heavy weapons, but so can every vehicle for any other chapter for 1 cp (big guns never tire). The re-roll 1s is nice if you aren't near a chapter master, or captain-but again other factions can get those. For examples, RG executioner shooting at a knight(character) is benefitting more than an IH one. You get the +1 to hit(offsets move and fire without penalty) you get +1 to wound, and you can likely have a captain/chapter master nearby. If you spend 1 CP you are ignoring the penalty to move and fire and are getting +1 to hit. Most chapters can get better benefits than IH, IH can just put them on more units during a single shooting phase across the table. Given the number of units you get in 2k points and the ability to castle around buffs, not sure this is as big a deal for IH as people think it is.

Looking at battle reports most IH armies are going 1/1/1 after 3 rounds, so I feel very validated in saying IH are over rated.


Marines still cost a lot of points for what they do- and they should.


Lots of things became more viable, including older models which is good.


The best codexes will be ones that can benefit movement the most and benefit a wide range of weapons and or doctrines- (UM/WS/RG/IF)


Tournament games with objectives are mostly won/lost during the movement phase disbarring wildly abberant dice rolls.

 Insectum7 wrote:


It also just seems obviously sales driven. Find thing from faction gets positive response? Make a version for the most popular faction! Profit!

Its not unheard of to Beta Test something in production. Most 40K units can be distilled into an archetype - Of course GW hasn't always been the best at keeping those archetypes consistent from faction to faction.

I believe Dreads were supposed to be the big monster for the Loyalists to balance against the Greater Daemons, and Avatar. Except most of the time, they made the vehicle rules Scissors to the large Monster rules' Rock in a game of Rock Paper Scissors. Had they just made a Dread a Metal Monster instead of a Vehicle, it would have been easier. They didn't, and the fiction took its cues from both Plot Armor, and the tabletop and started facing off the Captains and Chapter Masters against the big bad monsters. But that still left an aesthetic hole. If you were a loyalist, your big baddie was 2 inches tall. If you were Chaos, your big baddie was 5 inches tall. If you were Nids your big baddie was 5" tall or a 4" by 4" crab shaped brick etc. If you were Eldar it was a 5" tall molten god. If you're Tau you've got a 5" tall 3 pilot Mecha suit. Orks have a Stompa. I Think Guard were supposed to Soup in a Knight for theirs, but people went overboard and turned Knights into their own faction. Necrons are still waiting for theirs. Most armies had the larger humanoid'ish centerpiece.I believe that, more than power creep is why we're seeing Grandpappy Smurf, Mortie, and Magnus with more to come. If you look those big baddies are the embodiment of their faction. The Great Unclean One screams Death, Decay, and Rot. The Bloodthirster is all about chopping off heads with his axe, The Keeper of Secrets: kinky close combat, The Lord of Change isn't as visually obvious to someone not in the hobby, but Magnus is. A giant red one eyed dude screams evil sorcery. The KV-128 is all about the big guns. Guilliman with a sword, a fist, and a gun is the Jack of All Trades Master of None made manifest.

That's why they made Centurions after Oblits were a hit. So multiple groups gets something from the same archetype. Its why they made the KV-128.

Breton wrote:
I like my old models, nor do I want to see Grey Knights lose their Terminators, Custodes lose their Land Raiders, or Sisters lose their Rhinos.

What makes you think that's going to happen? All of the classic units are still in the new SM codex. Rhinos are also in the beta Sisters codex in CA 2018 and have just had two new models announced. Even the existing models just got new packaging. GW could remove units from any faction at any time, and the introduction of Primaris marines worried a lot of people at the start of 8th, but the latest evidence suggests that none of the classic marine units are going anywhere.

Karol wrote:

I don't think anyone expects that to happen anytime soon./

but if GW gives them bad rules or worse, bad rules and high point costs, then it doesn't matter if the models are legal or open play only. People won't be using them.

There's more to the hobby than the game, and not even just that, but people who might not care about being 100% efficient would be more than happy to use a sub-par model if it looks good.

People still make what might not be considered top tier lists simply because they like those models and their preference of said models is more important to them than getting closer to a win.

But where they good or bad, when they came out? Because it doesn't matter what people write about stuff, if to play they need to buy the units anyway. Same the other way around, being angry about something that doesn't get used by a large enough group is just ignored by the majority of players.

Again, I think you quite overestimate how many people who play 40k aren't exactly massively fussed about the meta and efficiency. Now, obviously it sounds like your group is, but I don't think that mindset is the "majority".

hell from everything Karol tells me if my local player base was like his I'd eaither

A: get outta 40k
B: stop playing and just model.