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Alright let's do this. There is always some discussion about how unit from faction x could beat a certain unit from faction y. So I thought let's give it a try and make a ranking of units in regards to their physical combat prowess. I've given this some thought and in this list I am specifically looking at melee capabilities. The rankings are influenced by how the unit is described in the lore (mainly the different codices since black library very often screws up realistic power levels) and their ingame stats. I try to give my reasoning for every unit as to why it sits at a certain level, also I've made a seperate list for HQs. Also I have not included special characters in my lists, because I think they would need a seperate list.
Now before you read my lists and turn into a frothing berserker because I may have left something out, please know that this is just my personal opinion. I've given this some thought, but I don't claim any validity to this in any way shape or form. I think talking about this is fun, als long as it does not turn into an online screaming match about who is right. So please try to keep it civil.
HQs:
Spoiler:
1.
Bloodthisters, greater demons of khorne - for me those guys are the definitive benchmark for physical combat prowess. They are basically a shard of the god of combat and bloodshed and it shows both in theirs stats and in their lore. Definitely a worthy first place.
2.
Keeper of Secrets - not as combat focused as the bloodthristers, but still extremely deadly. Slaanesh often gets a bad rep as the bdsm chaos god, but he is still the prince of excess and for some of his keepers of secrets this could manifest in them beeing excessively good warriors. I think there is even one keeper of secrets in the lore whose speciality is killing bloothirsters, so this entry fits quite well in second place I think.
3.
Avatar of Khaine – Yes, these guys also often get a bad rep because they‘ve been used multiple times to show how badass some special character is for beating them. They are still a shard of the god of murder and therefore extremely deadly and skilled fighters as evidenced by their lore and their ingame stats.
4.
A tie between the greater demons of nurgle an tzeench – both are not combat focused but they are still greater demons and I think it’s fair to say that they could hold their own against most other HQs.
5.
two entries because I couldn’t place one above the other, but if I had to I’d give the demon prince the edge over the hive tyrant
-Demon princes – a step below the greater demons, but still utter murdermachines. Their stats have always been impressive and they have always been described as extremely powerful in the lore.
-Tyranid Hive Tyrants – Yes, I’ve placed hive tyrants on the same place as demon princes because I think people often underestimate just how deadly those things are….massive creatures who are designed by the hive mind to murderize anything they
can get their hands on. They can give most HQs a run for their money in my opinion in terms of physical combat prowess.
6. Two entries, but I'd give the Solitaire the edge here.
Halequin Solitaire – I know they are not a HQ choice for the harlequins, but they always come as a single character so I put them in here. If I put them in the units list, they would have been the top spot for sure. Solitaires are even more deadly than the already super deadly normal harlequins. They have incredible melee potential, can blitz across the battlefield and blend whole units.
-Custodes Shield Captain/Tribune – normal custodes can give many HQs of other factions a run for their money and these guys are even better. They can stomp most things in melee and considering their fluff and their stats I think it’s fair to place them among the top humanoid fighters.
7.
Again more HQs sharing this spot again in specific order, though there won't be much difference between the Chaos lord and the Warboss.
-Chaos Lords – especially khorne aligned chaos lords for obvious reasons. Chaos lords in the lore have always been more deadly than their astartes counterparts. Their stats in the more current editions do not differ that much from their astartes counterparts, but in most chaos codices you had the option to turn your chaos lord into a complete melee monster through equipment and chaos blessings.
-Ork Waaghboss – I have a soft spot for these guys and orks in general, but considering that orks thrive on combat and that they can get quite enormous if they survive long enough, they are still one of the toughest things you can face in this shithole of a galaxy that we all love. Also as has been pointed out Warbosses can fluctuate in power very much, but on average I'd put them here.
-Tyranid broodlord/genestealer cult patriarch – small details differ, but these guys are almost the same. Genestealers are notorious for beenig a nightmare to face in melee combat and these guys are powered up genestealers. They are very strong, lightning quick very apt in close combat.
-Dark Eldar Succubi – crazy gladiators who don’t even really have proper armor compared to other races, but still kick massive butt because of their supreme skills.
8. In specific order, though there won't be much if any difference between the Autarch/Archon and the SM captain, I'd rank the grey knight just a bit higher though
-Grey Knight Grandmaster – the grey knights are more elite than the „normal“ space marines and their leaders definitely can pack a punch in close combat. More so against demons of course, but they are very skilled in combat no matter their foe.
-Eldar Autarch/Dark Eldar Archon – some people might hate me for this, but I don’t see much difference in those HQs for eldar and dark eldar in regards to physical combat prowess. They are both really good at it, but the higher entries on this list just eclipse them a bit I think.
-Space marine captain/chapter master (remember! Non special characters with copious amounts of plot armor) – the „standard“ superhumans of the imperium. They are still awsome combatants of course, just like the autarch/archon, but the higher entries are just better in regards to individual combat prowess.
9.
multiple entries here in specific order: (so first entry would have the edge over the second entry and so forth)
Sisters of Battle Canoness
Techpriest Domius
10. The normal humans, well trained, but simply not up to snuff compared to most xenos and the superhuman entries
Astra Militarum Tempestor prime
Astra Militarum Company Commander
Now I know what you are thinking: „where is my necron overlord?!“ Well, I had a really hard time placing them, so I’d be glad for suggestions as to where you would place those guys, because they can certainly be powerful.
Units:
I did not include every unit in the game because that would lead to an even bigger wall of text. I chose those units who are described to be good close combatants both in their lore and their stats. I have certainly left some units out, so feel free to correct me on that.
Spoiler:
1.
I ’ve put two entries in first place because I could not place one above the other:
-Harlequins – the clown eldar who will laugh and dance the whole time while slicing you open or turning your insides into soup. They are generally just extremely deadly and therefore a fitting choice for this spot in my opinion.
-Custodes – the golden bananaboys are the most skilled warriors the imperium can field, no question about it and their troops give many normal HQs of other armies a run for their money. This is not only reflected in their lore but also in their stats.
2.
This place will have more entries than usual, because there are a lot very good melee centered units in 40k that can fit in here. I have written the entries on this place in specific order, so the first entry might have a slight edge over the ones below and so forth, but those differences might be very minor:
-Genestealers – genestealers always had the reputation for being very hard to handle in melee and for good reason. They only have a singular purpose, get in your face and shred you to pieces and they are very effective in doing exactly that.
-Dark Eldar Incubi/Eldar howling banshees – the most melee centered aspect warriors and the most melee centered dark eldar unit both are awsome fighters and fit well in this place, though it must be said that their stats don’t really fit their lore description very well.
-Khorne berzerkers – they may be absolutely flying rodent gak insane killing machines, but they are also very good at being just that. No one really wants to get charged by a bunch of khone berzerkers for the hurt they can dish out.
-Grey Knights – more elite space marines and mostly better equipped than their standard astartes brothers. They are not completely melee focused but their psycic abilities enhance their melee abilities in a way.
-Bloodletters – in principle similar to the khorne berzerkers just with more demon flavour mixed in. They are fast, deadly and can chop up most other units with their blades. They are a small piece of the god of war after all.
-Ork meganobz – they are tough, live for combat, thrive in combat an can wreck some serious face if they get close to somebody.
3.
-Space Marines – the standard space marines may rank lower in my list but they are still very well trained, fanatical superhumans that can at least hold their own against most enemies. I think this fact makes them really interesting from a lore perspective. Space marines are leaps and bounds above a normal human and there are still many things in the galaxy that can give them real trouble. They are not perfect, but they can give humanity a fighting chance with their abilities, which is what makes them awsome.
-Chaos Space Marines – same as their loyalist brothers basically just independent and evil/crazy. This might sound mundane, but they are still extremely well trained superhumans.
-Most other eldar aspect warriors – striking scorpions, fire dragons and the sort could definitely hold their own against a space marine for example so their fit in here quite well I think.
-Daemonettes – the standard slaanesh demons might not be as melee centered as bloodletters, but they are definitely not bat in close combat.
-Sicarian Ruststalkers – Murderbots designed to assassinate key targets. They could definitely hold their own in a scrap and their gear is quite deadly.
4.
-Ork boyz – they are tough, live for battle, but you need a lot of them to be effective. They are awsome brawlers but are also undisciplined if their boss does not headbutt some sense into them.
-Sisters of battle – they are very well trained and are equipped with power armor, but they are still normal humans.
-Sisters of Silence – similar to the sisters of battle, they are well trained and equipped with a very specific purpose, but they are normal humans (except for being blanks, but you get my point)
-Imperial Guard Scions – the navy seals of the imperial guard so to speak. Great training, great equipment, but not really a match for the more melee focused units
5.
-Tyranid hormagaunts – they are little murder machines, but they only pose a main threat if they come in massive numbers (which they mostly do)
-Imperial guard soldier – the standard cannonfodder with a flashlight in hand. They are brave, but they are just normal humans and are therefore hopelessly outgunned when it comes to physical combat prowess.
I had a hard time ranking standard necron warriors and necron lychguard, maybe you can help me with that.
Let me know your opinion on this. Be nice, this is just my opinion and I wanted to have a chat about it, no reason the get worked up about it.
Edit: changed a few things up in the HQ section
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/24 05:30:17
Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords (and all things chaos) vary too much in power to be represented accurately on a scale IMO.
You've got Daemon Princes that are quite "weak" and would be pulverized by any of the top dogs such as Doombreed or the Daemon Primarchs, as they have much less power from their god invested into them.
Obviously in every category abilities differ, not all SM captains are equal. But in the case of Chaos, and particularly Princes, two individuals falling under the same broad classification will be just as different as an Ork Warboss is different from a Solitaire.
Perhaps it would be wise to put this under a rock-paper-scissors approach, as different matchups would give different results.
As such rank them on 1-10 of:
Strength - how much damage do they do when they hit you?
Speed - how likely are they to hit you, or dodge a hit?
Toughness - how much do they care if you hit them?
I won't go for units, as there's simply too many to tally, but I can go through HQs.
As a rough guide, this is my rankings. Generally speaking, I think Space Marines should be considerably powerful, so they actually rank quite highly for me, and given how the Primarchs were made and their origins, I usually rank them above even Greater Daemons. However, there is always room for particularly powerful variants of each leader (ie, Ghazghskull should be Tier 3 in my opinion, Abaddon either tier 2 or 1, and even certain guardsmen heroes like Yarrick being suitable for Tier 5)
Spoiler:
Tier 1 - Primarchs, Custodes Tribunes
Tier 2 - Khorne and Slaanesh Greater Daemons, Solitaires
Tier 3 - Nurgle and Tzeentch Greater Daemons, Grey Knight Grand Masters, Custodes Captains, Avatar of Khaine
Engrenages wrote:Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords (and all things chaos) vary too much in power to be represented accurately on a scale IMO.
You've got Daemon Princes that are quite "weak" and would be pulverized by any of the top dogs such as Doombreed or the Daemon Primarchs, as they have much less power from their god invested into them.
Obviously in every category abilities differ, not all SM captains are equal. But in the case of Chaos, and particularly Princes, two individuals falling under the same broad classification will be just as different as an Ork Warboss is different from a Solitaire.
Well you are right of course that demon princes and chaos lords fluctuate in their power level, but I the "average" demon prince and chaos lord would be still quite powerful, hence my rating. Maybe I would need to tweak my chaos lord ranking a bit.
some bloke wrote:Perhaps it would be wise to put this under a rock-paper-scissors approach, as different matchups would give different results.
As such rank them on 1-10 of:
Strength - how much damage do they do when they hit you?
Speed - how likely are they to hit you, or dodge a hit?
Toughness - how much do they care if you hit them?
EG an ork Warboss might rank 6 for strength, 4 for speed and 7 for toughness. he's pretty strong, even tougher but not that quick.
this might give a better idea of how the units would match up to one another, fluffwise. best 2 out of 3 in a top-trumps style approach.
That sounds like a great idea, but that's a lot of effort for a fun list like this. I wouldn't invest the time for that.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I won't go for units, as there's simply too many to tally, but I can go through HQs.
As a rough guide, this is my rankings. Generally speaking, I think Space Marines should be considerably powerful, so they actually rank quite highly for me, and given how the Primarchs were made and their origins, I usually rank them above even Greater Daemons. However, there is always room for particularly powerful variants of each leader (ie, Ghazghskull should be Tier 3 in my opinion, Abaddon either tier 2 or 1, and even certain guardsmen heroes like Yarrick being suitable for Tier 5)
Spoiler:
Tier 1 - Primarchs, Custodes Tribunes
Tier 2 - Khorne and Slaanesh Greater Daemons, Solitaires
Tier 3 - Nurgle and Tzeentch Greater Daemons, Grey Knight Grand Masters, Custodes Captains, Avatar of Khaine
Tier 8 - Typical Company Commanders, GSC Magus, high tier PDF/Chaos renegade leaders
As much as I love my golden boys, would you really rank a custodes tribune above a greater demon and on the same level as a primarch? They are very powerful for sure, but not that powerful I believe.
Tiberias wrote: As much as I love my golden boys, would you really rank a custodes tribune above a greater demon and on the same level as a primarch? They are very powerful for sure, but not that powerful I believe.
I absolutely would. Custodes Tribunes are capable of going toe-to-toe with Primarch tier opponents, and Primarchs are superior to Greater Daemons. In my opinion, they're a higher tier than Greater Daemons, but even so, the gaps between the highest tiers are smaller than the gap between the lower tiers (Commissar Lord to Space Marine Captain is a vastly larger gap).
I do think that ranking the "generic" options for HQs is gonna be pretty... inaccurate. For example, Ork Warbosses can range from "barely stronger than a Nob" to "leading a systems large Waagh and can rip a Dread in half with his bare hands". I mean, while Ghaz ain't at the same level yet, The Beast was able to go toe to toe with a Primarch and force the latter to "suicide" them both to win, and they're both, technically, Warbosses.
At least in regards to the lore. I'm sure most Factions have similar varied power levels between their "big boys". You'd probably have better results just dealing with the more famous versions of each HQ. If only because you'd have a smaller pool of examples to have to deal with.
I don't think the daemons rate on the scale. For all their game stats, individuals of all species beat on them like a pinata on a regular basis. In the fiction and background, they're a plot device, not a measure of prowess.
On the end of the scale, except for maybe the Techpriest Dominus (due to the scale of modifications that can be done), I don't think anyone listed under 10 even makes the list.
Grey knights, and chaos lords are on the same scale as other SM characters. Specializations like grey knights or khorne don't make them better combatants, just indicate a fighting preference. (And despite what GW thinks- being a commander isn't a measure of combat prowess)
As a general rule, I pretty much agree with the "power ranking" proposed by the OP and I think little of it is objectionable besides perhapse its focus on close combat as the deciding factor instead of taking the unit/leader at its strongest point. I also think there is a lot of overlap. For example, I don't think we can say that Primarchs are stronger then Greater Daemon, Avatars of Khaine or Hive Tyrants. All these creatures are fairly matched. Of course, in the stories, the Primarchs win due to their narrative importance, but we are supposed to assume that from an "in univers" perspective the fight could have gone either way or maybe the Primarch was even lucky this time around and their enemy made a critical mistake. The same can be said about let's say Space Marines, Eldar Aspect Warriors, Wytches and Necron Warriors. All of these are probably worth about as much as their equivalent in other factions when they are in their element.
Because the list would get a bit long and convoluted if I included range capabilities and psychic powers, also comparing units would then lead to even more controversy. It was also simply the aspect I wanted to focus on, because I found it the most interesting, that's it honestly.
flandarz wrote:I do think that ranking the "generic" options for HQs is gonna be pretty... inaccurate. For example, Ork Warbosses can range from "barely stronger than a Nob" to "leading a systems large Waagh and can rip a Dread in half with his bare hands". I mean, while Ghaz ain't at the same level yet, The Beast was able to go toe to toe with a Primarch and force the latter to "suicide" them both to win, and they're both, technically, Warbosses.
At least in regards to the lore. I'm sure most Factions have similar varied power levels between their "big boys". You'd probably have better results just dealing with the more famous versions of each HQ. If only because you'd have a smaller pool of examples to have to deal with.
Ghaz and the beast would be special character territory, but I agree that I may have undervalued Warbosses a bit. On average they should rank a bit higher maybe, I'll consider updating that. And I really don't want to focus on the more famous special HQ version of each faction, because I think they are even harder to compare, because in the lore every one of them is always described as the bestest of the best...
Voss wrote:I don't think the daemons rate on the scale. For all their game stats, individuals of all species beat on them like a pinata on a regular basis. In the fiction and background, they're a plot device, not a measure of prowess.
On the end of the scale, except for maybe the Techpriest Dominus (due to the scale of modifications that can be done), I don't think anyone listed under 10 even makes the list.
Grey knights, and chaos lords are on the same scale as other SM characters. Specializations like grey knights or khorne don't make them better combatants, just indicate a fighting preference. (And despite what GW thinks- being a commander isn't a measure of combat prowess)
I'd rate grey knights a bit higher than space marine characters though, if not by much. And about your argument about demons beeing beaten like a pinata by everyone: that is true, it is also true about the elda avatar, but I'd still rate them as high as I have, because of their stats. I mean someone like marneus calgar beating an eldar avatar in single combat is just a case of writers trying to make ultramarines look cool, he shouldn't be able to do it on his own.
Edit: I still need help ranking necron overlords in the HQ section and necron lychguard in the unit section, still have no clue where to fit them
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/24 05:34:21
Voss wrote: I don't think the daemons rate on the scale. For all their game stats, individuals of all species beat on them like a pinata on a regular basis. In the fiction and background, they're a plot device, not a measure of prowess.
On the end of the scale, except for maybe the Techpriest Dominus (due to the scale of modifications that can be done), I don't think anyone listed under 10 even makes the list.
Grey knights, and chaos lords are on the same scale as other SM characters. Specializations like grey knights or khorne don't make them better combatants, just indicate a fighting preference. (And despite what GW thinks- being a commander isn't a measure of combat prowess)
Agreed, in the fluff daemons might be talked up a bit but in actual fights daemon infantry tend to be cannon fodder that die in droves to space marines. Similar to orks. Daemon monster HQ's on the other hand deserve the high ranking, in the fluff I've only read the most powerful individuals being able to solo a bloodthirster, like Lorgar, and even he had a hard fight
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