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 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:


So that's a yes, you just made it up without any basis whatsoever?

Whats your basis for thinking a warlord trait is an ability ?

Well the strongest basis is you in particular saying it's not. Beyond that, Ability is not a technical term defined by GW, so the generic one would apply. To be honest, I thought you'd at least have some list of things GW had listed as abilities that didn't mention Warlord Traits. Or SOME sort of FAQ answer as a jumping off point. That you can't point to anything at all from GW is... beyond words.

Breton wrote:
Well the strongest basis is you in particular saying it's not. Beyond that, Ability is not a technical term defined by GW, so the generic one would apply. To be honest, I thought you'd at least have some list of things GW had listed as abilities that didn't mention Warlord Traits. Or SOME sort of FAQ answer as a jumping off point. That you can't point to anything at all from GW is... beyond words.

I suggest you read the rules first, before telling nonsense. The core rules on pg. 12/13 describe what abilities are. They are listed on a units datasheet. There is your definition what an ability is.

7. Abilities
Many units have exciting special abilities
that are not covered by the core rules;
these will be described here.

Unless GW comes up with a FAQ clarification that abilities means everything, abilities are just this, rules on a units datasheet.

 p5freak wrote:

Unless GW comes up with a FAQ clarification that abilities means everything, abilities are just this, rules on a units datasheet.

In your opinion. The vast majority disagree.

If you want to keep stating your opinion on this then fine, but please at least do people the service of mentioning that it is a contentious issue. To ignore that is extremely dishonest of you.

We already know the definition you quoted to not be exhaustive - they've explicitly stated that psychic powers also are abilities. It seems very likely based on that and other usage that they are using it as a general term for special rules. To cling onto your restrictive defintion is frankly absurd at this point.

It doesn't matter if the majority disagree when you are correct.

The majority of people think Jaywalking shouldn't be a crime, but it still is.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It doesn't matter if the majority disagree when you are correct.

The majority of people think Jaywalking shouldn't be a crime, but it still is.

We aren't talking about law, this is a game. What the majority believe matters. What people actually play is more important than RAW.

Especially when GW don't write rules with the precision of a legal document. Interpreting it with the precision of a legal document makes zero sense.

Oh not this tangent again... BCB, let me introduce you to this thing called “consensus”...

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:
Well the strongest basis is you in particular saying it's not. Beyond that, Ability is not a technical term defined by GW, so the generic one would apply. To be honest, I thought you'd at least have some list of things GW had listed as abilities that didn't mention Warlord Traits. Or SOME sort of FAQ answer as a jumping off point. That you can't point to anything at all from GW is... beyond words.

I suggest you read the rules first, before telling nonsense. The core rules on pg. 12/13 describe what abilities are. They are listed on a units datasheet. There is your definition what an ability is.

So all the times I asked what you were basing it on, and not bringing this up... How many times did I ask you where you were getting this from and you declined to answer?

And Ability is still not a technical term defined by GW The "list" of abilities on the datasheet does not say it's a comprehensive list, in fact it says

Many Units have exciting special abilites that are not covered by the core rules. these will be described here.

Ergo, Abilities are NOT limited to just the Datasheet. I suggest you read the rules.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
At this time, I'd like to direct your attention to Page 247 of the BRB, or the Core Rules Movement Phase page and the blurb on the right detailing the Battle Round. Specifcally Phase 2 the Psychic Phase where

Psykers can use powerful mental abilities

Psychic Powers are not on the Datasheet, they're on the psychic power page usually of an entirely different book than the core rules.

And now I'd like to call your attention to Page 269:

If your warlord is a CHARACTER it can use a Warlord Trait - a preferred tactic or personal ability...

Uh oh, Warlord Traits are an ability. But they're not on the datasheet.

Now please turn to page 312 where the word Ability is used no less than THREE times to describe the ways reinforcement points work.
Apparently summoning daemons is.. an ability.

Moving on to Page 379 where we find out even the Battlezones

may grant additional abilities to certain units.

Are Battlezones on the datasheet?

 Dr. Mills wrote:
So we have determined that abilities that increase your saving throws by +1/2 either by ability or warlord trait do not affect the invulnerable save?

Good. Common sense has prevailed.

That's completely wrong though.
If something increases your saves, it does so for both armour as well as invulnerable saves - unless stated otherwise.

But if what you are increasing is just the bonus, and that bonus is restricted to certain situations or saves, those restrictions will still apply for the whole bonus.

nekooni wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
So we have determined that abilities that increase your saving throws by +1/2 either by ability or warlord trait do not affect the invulnerable save?

Good. Common sense has prevailed.

That's completely wrong though.
If something increases your saves, it does so for both armour as well as invulnerable saves - unless stated otherwise.

But if what you are increasing is just the bonus, and that bonus is restricted to certain situations or saves, those restrictions will still apply for the whole bonus.

This is my view. You are increasing the bonus from +1 to +2 so the rule now reads +2 and doesn't affect Invuns.

Breton wrote:

And now I'd like to call your attention to Page 269:
.
.
.
.

Ok, looks like you are right. Abilities are everything.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Its not as easy as i thought. As i said, a warlord trait isnt an ability, therefore its unclear if architect of war can affect inv. Only abilities can affect inv.

Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply
to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.
Remember that invulnerable saves are unaffected by the
+1 bonus models receive to their saving throws for the
benefits of cover.

Incorrect, you don't know that Warlord Traits are not abilities. GW's usage of the term is very broad.

True, no one knows if warlord traits are abilities, therefore its unclear if warlord traits can affect inv, unless it mentions inv. Right now an ability is whats listed on a datasheet. There are psychic powers which affect inv, like weaver of fates. And there are warlord traits which only affect the sv characteristic, like the necron WLT nightmare shroud.

The note about remembering that invulnerable saves are unaffected by +1 cover bonuses is just that , a reminder. It's not keyed specifically to abilities; the +1 bonus comes from the Terrain and Cover sidebar in the Shooting Phase secion, not an ability. Therefore it's irrelevant as to whether Warlord traits are abilities or not as you always ignore the +1 bonus that come from cover for Invulnerable saves,, You do not have a +1 that applies to the invulnerable save as an "instead of" when looking at Architect of War's +2 "instead of" the +1, so you don't get the +2 to a cover save.

Have I been doing it wrong this whole time? I always thought Cover saves just applied to Armor saves, and Invuln was something completely different which needed to be annotated as an item or an ability, like Iron Halo, or Refractor Field...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Have I been doing it wrong this whole time? I always thought Cover saves just applied to Armor saves, and Invuln was something completely different which needed to be annotated as an item or an ability, like Iron Halo, or Refractor Field...

The benefits of cover only applies to armor saving throws only.

40K FAQ wrote:Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.
Remember that invulnerable saves are unaffected by the +1 bonus models receive to their saving throws for the benefits of cover.