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Hi all,

Can anyone tell me if a Chapter has ever been made from an individual Space Marine Blackshield? Or if this is possible?

Thanks

EDIT: Sorry, mis-read the question (thought you were asking about an all-Blackshield Chapter :-( )

I doubt it would be possible - using Geneseed from multiple independent sources would mean identifying and making new recruits would be an almost impossible task.

Azkallean wrote:
Hi all,

Can anyone tell me if a Chapter has ever been made from an individual Space Marine Blackshield? Or if this is possible?

Thanks

I can tell you it's possible. The why is up to you.

The creation of a new Chapter is known as a Founding, and it does not happen overnight. Each Chapter is created from the gene-seed of an existing donor Chapter (usually one of the original nine). The zygote is implanted in a human test-slave who spends his entire life in a static experimental capsule, immobile and serving nothing but as a medium which from two progenoids will develop. When the progenoids are developed, they are extracted from the original test-slave and then implanted into another two test-slaves, producing four progenoids, and so on. It takes 55 years of reproduction to create a healthy set of 1,000 organs. These must be sanctioned officially by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra, speaking for the Emperor, who alone can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter.

Who would make a chapter from a Blackshield? You'd need a reason why the Highlords would do it, rather than go for Ultramarine Successor number 404, (then lose all the records of whose geneseed they used). Maybe this Blackshield had previously shown a strange resistance to chaos, and they wanted the effect replicated. maybe he was a hero who did a thing and they want to honour him. It's going to be a stretch though.

An inquisitor or similarly powerful individual might pull a blackshield from the deathwatch and when he died, try to generate an unsanctioned chapter from his progenoids. This assumes the Individual knows how this is done or has access to people who do.
How would such a chapter be armed and armoured? Would they have to pretend to be ultramarine successor chapter 404, who were lost in the warp, turning up for refit and resupply? Would the Individual have allies in the Mechanicus who could arrange 1000 suits of power armour, spare parts and boltguns? Would they have to make do with techserfs and enginseers rather than techmarines?

Because they are an alfa legion sleeper agen within the inquisition or administratum and wha to create a cover for moving AL assets and men power over imperial space?

My idea is to create an Iron Hands successor Chapter that doesn’t worship bionics. Instead they have found the Neimerel Scrolls attributed to Ferrus Manus and strive to be the sons he said he wanted his Iron Hands to be. Obviously this would cause the Iron Hands and the Blackshield to turn their backs on each other. This could also create friction between the Blackshield and the Mechanicum.

Do you think that’s any good or will it not work?

Karol wrote:



Because they are an alfa legion sleeper agen within the inquisition or administratum and wha to create a cover for moving AL assets and men power over imperial space?

Bland meme is bland.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:



Because they are an alfa legion sleeper agen within the inquisition or administratum and wha to create a cover for moving AL assets and men power over imperial space?

Bland meme is bland.

What is a bland meme?

Karol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:



Because they are an alfa legion sleeper agen within the inquisition or administratum and wha to create a cover for moving AL assets and men power over imperial space?

Bland meme is bland.

What is a bland meme?

A meme that has overstayed it's welcome in use.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:



Because they are an alfa legion sleeper agen within the inquisition or administratum and wha to create a cover for moving AL assets and men power over imperial space?

Bland meme is bland.

What is a bland meme?

A meme that has overstayed it's welcome in use.

You know that time you told a really funny joke that everyone laughed at, and a 4 year old kid over heard it, and repeated it again and again and again to the point where it long sicne ceased to be funny and was in fact just annoying? yeah thats a stale meme.


as for an Iron Hands sucessor that embraces the flesh it's possiable that sometime in the past they had a schism ala the Moria schisim.

Azkallean wrote:
My idea is to create an Iron Hands successor Chapter that doesn’t worship bionics. Instead they have found the Neimerel Scrolls attributed to Ferrus Manus and strive to be the sons he said he wanted his Iron Hands to be. Obviously this would cause the Iron Hands and the Blackshield to turn their backs on each other. This could also create friction between the Blackshield and the Mechanicum.

Do you think that’s any good or will it not work?

Are you thinking of a Blackshield because DW are given significantly more freedom than battlebrothers? Or is there some ordo xenos/DW connection that you'd like the chapter to have?

Bacically all marines and all the Imperium's thought leaders are human supremacists, but there are interesting schools of thought on human supremacy. The Adherents of Aleynikov are a religious faction in Faith and Coin (a roleplaying supplement) that effectively believe that the human form is a sacred reflection of the God Emperor as is- and that adding bionics is sinful.

The emperor himself developed geneseed to enhance, rather than replace the human form. Having an Ironhand encounter ideas that conflict with his own presumptions/dogma and resolving this could be a cool story.

It would be possible but it requires so much hand-waving that it would come off as Mary Sue-esque.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It would be possible but it requires so much hand-waving that it would come off as Mary Sue-esque.

I wouldn't go that far.

There are plenty of canon chapters who have equally atypical origins.
-Minotaurs- the High-lords anti marine hitmen
-Relictors- played with chaos artifacts with a radical inquisitors blessing
-Black Templars- the Imperial fist legion masquerading as a single chapter
-Soul Drinkers- not even going to start
-Sons of Medusa, Unlikely amalgamation of the Iron Hands Moira Schism defectors/heretics

Having a non standard origin - particularly one set up with an opposing viewpoint to an existing faction gives you built in plothooks and allows you to explore themes of distrust- are they acceoted as a valid chapter by their Primogenitor and the Imperium at large? Were they an unauthorized founding created in the shadows and are one Inquisitorial investigation away from being hunted down by the Minotaurs?

There's also the point of Chapters having schisms and generating a lot of blackshields at the same time, SAY if someone were to just dump a shitton of wierd new imporoved recruits on them, especially if they are not to the chapters invoved likings?

BrianDavion 780603 10579306 wrote:
You know that time you told a really funny joke that everyone laughed at, and a 4 year old kid over heard it, and repeated it again and again and again to the point where it long sicne ceased to be funny and was in fact just annoying? yeah thats a stale meme.


as for an Iron Hands sucessor that embraces the flesh it's possiable that sometime in the past they had a schism ala the Moria schisim.

Nah I don't get that. I have a problems with understanding humor most of the time. Told a joke one time at school, and that ended with my parents being called in.

I think an alfa legion secret agent of high rank wanted to create a cover up for AL operations that require the movment of space marines in imperial space would very well try to create a loyalist chapter as a cover. That is what agencies do in real life, they create legal companies or NGOs and use official ambassy workers to do stuff. My dads dad was sent to france to get an degree in engineering, only to do one thing. He was suppose to copy any designs he could get his hands on. Even got a medal for it, and a bonus to pension.

There's also the point of Chapters having schisms and generating a lot of blackshields at the same time, SAY if someone were to just dump a shitton of wierd new imporoved recruits on them, especially if they are not to the chapters invoved likings?

What is the procedure for a lost company suddenly ploping out of the warp, being lost for 2-3k years? They can't take them in, because they would be breaking the codex size, there is good chance the old guys won't be very welcome to the chapter now. Power positions in chapter may be already taken etc. It is like suddenly 2 kids of your grand dad pop up and inform everyone that they part of everything.

Karol wrote:

What is the procedure for a lost company suddenly ploping out of the warp, being lost for 2-3k years? They can't take them in, because they would be breaking the codex size, there is good chance the old guys won't be very welcome to the chapter now. Power positions in chapter may be already taken etc. It is like suddenly 2 kids of your grand dad pop up and inform everyone that they part of everything.

Slap an 11th company sticker on them and call it a day.

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:

What is the procedure for a lost company suddenly ploping out of the warp, being lost for 2-3k years? They can't take them in, because they would be breaking the codex size, there is good chance the old guys won't be very welcome to the chapter now. Power positions in chapter may be already taken etc. It is like suddenly 2 kids of your grand dad pop up and inform everyone that they part of everything.

Slap an 11th company sticker on them and call it a day.

Preferably after extensive inquisitorial screening.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Preferably after extensive inquisitorial screening.

The stickers may or may not be explosive.

Sterling191 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Preferably after extensive inquisitorial screening.

The stickers may or may not be explosive.

Probably less explosive since abbadon gave the galaxy a new crack.

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:

What is the procedure for a lost company suddenly ploping out of the warp, being lost for 2-3k years? They can't take them in, because they would be breaking the codex size, there is good chance the old guys won't be very welcome to the chapter now. Power positions in chapter may be already taken etc. It is like suddenly 2 kids of your grand dad pop up and inform everyone that they part of everything.

Slap an 11th company sticker on them and call it a day.

Am rather sure that is not how the rules work in w40k. When Huron tried to avoid, unlawful taxation of geneseed that would cripple his chapter, the reaction was him being branded a heretic. Plus GW itselfs seems to be making chapters that were known for having more then 10 companies, drop to 1000men.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:



Because they are an alfa legion sleeper agen within the inquisition or administratum and wha to create a cover for moving AL assets and men power over imperial space?

Bland meme is bland.

What is a bland meme?

A meme that has overstayed it's welcome in use.

Karol wrote:

Am rather sure that is not how the rules work in w40k.

You would be wrong. After Bobby woke up from his nap, one of his first reforms to the Codex Astartes was the introduction of an 11th Company, which is a de facto reserve force of indeterminate and flexible size. They're in effect a distributed adaptation of the Unnumbered Sons concept.

Karol wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Karol wrote:

What is the procedure for a lost company suddenly ploping out of the warp, being lost for 2-3k years? They can't take them in, because they would be breaking the codex size, there is good chance the old guys won't be very welcome to the chapter now. Power positions in chapter may be already taken etc. It is like suddenly 2 kids of your grand dad pop up and inform everyone that they part of everything.

Slap an 11th company sticker on them and call it a day.

Am rather sure that is not how the rules work in w40k. When Huron tried to avoid, unlawful taxation of geneseed that would cripple his chapter, the reaction was him being branded a heretic. Plus GW itselfs seems to be making chapters that were known for having more then 10 companies, drop to 1000men.

Tbf Huron decided to just expand his forces to further contain the malestorm and got demands for further reeinforcements denied which ultimately turned him and some friendly chapters of him to become traitors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:



Because they are an alfa legion sleeper agen within the inquisition or administratum and wha to create a cover for moving AL assets and men power over imperial space?

Bland meme is bland.

What is a bland meme?

A meme that has overstayed it's welcome in use.

Feths sake not again.
Also you are alpharius, I am Omegon but also alpharius.
She is alpharius but not Omegon and he is Omegon but not alpharius.

Not Online!!! wrote:
There's also the point of Chapters having schisms and generating a lot of blackshields at the same time, SAY if someone were to just dump a shitton of weird new imporoved recruits on them, especially if they are not to the chapters invoved likings?

This is a fair point to the Iron Hands in particular. While a lot of them believe that the flesh is weak and is improved with bionic addition, part must believe that the Emperor's design is flawless and is added to through necessity only (losing a leg in battle for example).
Cawl rocks up with a design that satisfies no-one- a modification of the Emperor's intent that incorporates weird springs inside the body?

After a particularly lively debate, a few dozen marines confide in their Clan leaders that they want out. Though the Chapter proper will take on Primaris recruits to appease the Lord Commander, the others want to be assigned to a deep space mission in enemy held systems or an indefinite deathwatch attachment.

Administratively, this can only be done if their names are struck from the chapter records- allowing neophytes to be advanced to their positions. The dissenters are therefore 'exiled' and allowed to take a few ships with them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

I think an alfa legion secret agent of high rank wanted to create a cover up for AL operations that require the movment of space marines in imperial space would very well try to create a loyalist chapter as a cover. That is what agencies do in real life, they create legal companies or NGOs and use official ambassy workers to do stuff. My dads dad was sent to france to get an degree in engineering, only to do one thing. He was suppose to copy any designs he could get his hands on. Even got a medal for it, and a bonus to pension.

This could absolutely happen, but it is played out. The issue is that 40k had in-universe issues with knowledge sharing and communication before the place was torn in half by hell. The intent is that anything could happen on the edge of known space and the edges are everywhere, due to the way warp travel and astropathy work. Warp travel is akin to the age of sail- you set sail, you don't know how kind the winds will be, you fight without the benefit of constant contact with home and you return at the mercy of the winds and the sea. The long shadows exist for you to create your legends in, to have your unknown soldiers fight unknown races and empires.

Instead, the Alpha legion meme fills all of these shadows with traitor marines in masks. Anyone and everyone is a potential AL plant, from Cawl to Creed, from Helmawr to Helbrecht. You yourself may think you are loyal but could just as easily be a legion agent in deep cover with a mental block. Warp travel is akin to the age of sail- you set sail, you don't know how kind the winds will be, you fight without the benefit of constant contact with home and you return at the mercy of the winds and the sea. At any point during loss of contact, some or all of your ships crew could be replaced with Alpha Legion.

It's not fun, it cheapens everything and it's anti 'your dudes' to suggest that any given power broker in the Imperium (or my army) is secretly a spy.

It's now actually harder to do something interesting with the concept of AL infiltrators than it is something frustrating and trite.

For the record I think the above is cool.