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For reference the codex reads
"When this unit fires over watch or is chosen to shoot with, models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn."

First question could relate to other units that can fire twice.
When you fire them twice, does it have to be in-a-row?
For example, can i fire one of their volleys at a rhino... Then shoot at other things with the rest of my army, then come back and shoot their second shot at the units that came out of the destroyed rhino.

Intuitively it seems like you should have to shoot them all at once, but nothing says you can't shoot them in two different instances.

Second.
How many shots do you get when one is killed near an Ancient? does it matter if you used the previous turn?
I heard that it would always get 6 or always get 12, since you don't actually "choose" them to shoot, or its the same idea as overwatch which is always the double tap.

footfoe wrote:
For reference the codex reads
"When this unit fires over watch or is chosen to shoot with, models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn."

First question could relate to other units that can fire twice.
When you fire them twice, does it have to be in-a-row?
For example, can i fire one of their volleys at a rhino... Then shoot at other things with the rest of my army, then come back and shoot their second shot at the units that came out of the destroyed rhino.

Intuitively it seems like you should have to shoot them all at once, but nothing says you can't shoot them in two different instances.

Second.
How many shots do you get when one is killed near an Ancient? does it matter if you used the previous turn?
I heard that it would always get 6 or always get 12, since you don't actually "choose" them to shoot, or its the same idea as overwatch which is always the double tap.

1) https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf Page twelve, 2nd paragraph from the bottom right.

2) As above, page nine, first question on the right hand column.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

footfoe wrote:
For reference the codex reads
"When this unit fires over watch or is chosen to shoot with, models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn."

First question could relate to other units that can fire twice.
When you fire them twice, does it have to be in-a-row?
For example, can i fire one of their volleys at a rhino... Then shoot at other things with the rest of my army, then come back and shoot their second shot at the units that came out of the destroyed rhino.

Intuitively it seems like you should have to shoot them all at once, but nothing says you can't shoot them in two different instances.

Second.
How many shots do you get when one is killed near an Ancient? does it matter if you used the previous turn?
I heard that it would always get 6 or always get 12, since you don't actually "choose" them to shoot, or its the same idea as overwatch which is always the double tap.

1) https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf Page twelve, 2nd paragraph from the bottom right.

2) As above, page nine, first question on the right hand column.

So i can choose a different target AFTER i see the result of the first volley?

2. so 12?

1) As usual GW are useless with their FAQs. We don't know what "fire twice" actually means, and whether you go though the entire procedure as you do with Fighting. Prepare for arguments in both directions.

2) Yes, because of GW's stupid FAQ.

footfoe wrote:
For reference the codex reads
"When this unit fires over watch or is chosen to shoot with, models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn."

First question could relate to other units that can fire twice.
When you fire them twice, does it have to be in-a-row?
For example, can i fire one of their volleys at a rhino... Then shoot at other things with the rest of my army, then come back and shoot their second shot at the units that came out of the destroyed rhino.

Intuitively it seems like you should have to shoot them all at once, but nothing says you can't shoot them in two different instances.

Second.
How many shots do you get when one is killed near an Ancient? does it matter if you used the previous turn?
I heard that it would always get 6 or always get 12, since you don't actually "choose" them to shoot, or its the same idea as overwatch which is always the double tap.

Well I'm pretty sure you have to finish this unit before moving onto that unit, so I'd say you can't go back later and fire their second round. GW isn't very clear on what fire twice means. Does it mean the entire Shooting Sequence of the Shooting Phase core rules? Or just Step 4, Resolve Attacks?

HIWPI you restart the Shooting Sequence at Step 2 with the idea that using the ability in the first place already fulfilled step 1. (And thus the timing of "using" the fire twice ability is after they've fired the first time but before another unit has fired.)

But its pretty much equally valid to play it as You start with step 1 choose the unit, and at Step 2 you choose target(s) for the first round, and choose target(s) for the second round at the same time (And thus this is the timing of "using" the fire twice ability). This way, you're declaring both groups of shots to a legal target at step 2 - thus you can choose to send the first "fire" at the Rhino, and the second "fire" at The Devastators a little to the left of the Rhino, but not the Tacticals inside the Rhino.

From a realism/suspension of disbelief stand point you can make an argument for both.

Scenario 1: Space Marines have sensors and training to expect survivors to jump out of a burning tank transport, and they're still just pouring fire into the same general location.

Scenario 2: The action is fast and furious, they've already plotted out their attack and don't have the time to waste on hypothetical what-if results from shooting at a Tank Transport.

As to question 2:

Per the Astartes Banner it may shoot with ONE weapon as if it were the shooting phase, or make one attack with one melee weapon (Screwing close combat'ers once again - this edition REALLY hates Close Combat) therefore, you can pick one weapon - and the PAIR of X-Storm gauntlets are indeed one weapon as if it was the shooting phase. The fact that you used the ability on the previous turn has no effect on the ability in it's description. Only if you moved or if you didn't So as long as you didn't move or (assuming it hasn't been FAQ'ed) you're an Ultramarine in Tactical and didn't advance and so count as not moving - you can fire that one weapon twice.

GW is very clear how and when aggressors shoot twice.

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g.
Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor
Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target
each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve
these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets
each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to
back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before
resolving the second.

 p5freak wrote:
GW is very clear how and when aggressors shoot twice.

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g.
Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor
Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target
each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve
these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets
each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to
back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before
resolving the second.

No, they're not clear.
Resolve Attacks is Step 4 of the Shooting Sequence of the core rules for the shooting phase - Choosing targets and weapons are Step 2 and 3. They have been clear you can choose different targets (step 2) for the second shooting resolution, but they haven't been clear at all on when you go through step 2 and step 3 for the second set.

If you go through Step 2 and step 3 after the first step 4 you can choose the unit that was inside the transport, if you go through step 2 and step 3 for the second group before the first group's step 4 you can't choose the unit inside the transport.

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
GW is very clear how and when aggressors shoot twice.

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g.
Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor
Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target
each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve
these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets
each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to
back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before
resolving the second.

No, they're not clear.
Resolve Attacks is Step 4 of the Shooting Sequence of the core rules for the shooting phase - Choosing targets and weapons are Step 2 and 3. They have been clear you can choose different targets (step 2) for the second shooting resolution, but they haven't been clear at all on when you go through step 2 and step 3 for the second set.

If you go through Step 2 and step 3 after the first step 4 you can choose the unit that was inside the transport, if you go through step 2 and step 3 for the second group before the first group's step 4 you can't choose the unit inside the transport.

You are technically correct, and as usual GW isnt with this FAQ (always keep in mind that GW doesnt know their own rules, or dont bother to follow them exactly), but the way its written its two separate attacks. You wouldnt be able to choose different targets if you dont get to step 2. And even if you dont believe you get to step 2, the FAQ gives you special permission to shoot another unit.

Aggressors go through step 1 to 4 of the shooting phase when they fire the first time, and then they go through step 2 to 4 the second time. Alternatively you simply select a different unit as a target for your second time shooting, because the FAQ says you can. If you kill a transport with your first round of shooting (resolve the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second, which means you can kill a transport, and the unit inside has to disembark), you can target the now disembarked unit with the second time shooting.

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
GW is very clear how and when aggressors shoot twice.

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g.
Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor
Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target
each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve
these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets
each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to
back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before
resolving the second.

No, they're not clear.
Resolve Attacks is Step 4 of the Shooting Sequence of the core rules for the shooting phase - Choosing targets and weapons are Step 2 and 3. They have been clear you can choose different targets (step 2) for the second shooting resolution, but they haven't been clear at all on when you go through step 2 and step 3 for the second set.

If you go through Step 2 and step 3 after the first step 4 you can choose the unit that was inside the transport, if you go through step 2 and step 3 for the second group before the first group's step 4 you can't choose the unit inside the transport.

You are technically correct, and as usual GW isnt with this FAQ (always keep in mind that GW doesnt know their own rules, or dont bother to follow them exactly), but the way its written its two separate attacks. You wouldnt be able to choose different targets if you dont get to step 2. And even if you dont believe you get to step 2, the FAQ gives you special permission to shoot another unit.

Aggressors go through step 1 to 4 of the shooting phase when they fire the first time, and then they go through step 2 to 4 the second time. Alternatively you simply select a different unit as a target for your second time shooting, because the FAQ says you can. If you kill a transport with your first round of shooting (resolve the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second, which means you can kill a transport, and the unit inside has to disembark), you can target the now disembarked unit with the second time shooting.

Says who? It says you can choose a second target. It doesn't say you can choose a second target AFTER you destroyed the first one. If you only get one step 2, and have to choose your second target before "Resolving the second attacks immediately after the first" you have to chose your second target before resolving the attacks (Step 4) of the first round of attacks, and thus can't choose the embarked unit.

The narrowest RAW reading is

Step 1 choose the Aggressors
Step 2 Choose the target for first wave of shots. Chose Target for the second wave of shots.
Step 3 Choose weapon(s) for the First wave of Shots, choose weapon(s) for the second wave of shots (Assuming there is a choice- the ability itself may require/force this "choice".).
Step 4 Resolve Attacks for First Wave
Resolve Attacks for Second Wave

This allows you to shoot at two different targets - if two different legal targets are available and you so desire, plus fulfills the potentially unintended (potentially intended) way GW emphasized the Resolve Attacks reference to the Shooting Sequence in the core Rules. If you have to Resolve the attacks for the second wave immediately after the first wave, that means you should/would have done Step 2 and Step 3 for the second wave before the first Step 4 Resolve Attacks.

Now most of us will probably play it a little differently in practice. Most of us will likely do step 1, 2, 3, and 4 for the first wave, then step 2, 3, and 4 of the second wave as if any results/changes from the first wave hadn't happened yet.. i.e. if you uncovered a new legal target, or caused a unit to debark etc, but that would be a housekeeping issue and not really a rules deviation. Also Assuming that's what GW actually meant and not to go through the entire shooting sequence (as opposed to just the Step 4 Resolve Attacks ) immediately after the first Step 4 Resolve Attacks.

I dont think you have to pick the target for both shooting attacks in step 2 of the shooting phase, because this is would be a significant deviation from the rules, and it would be mentioned. But, as usual, talk to your opponent before the game, or the TO, how to handle it.

 p5freak wrote:
because this is would be a significant deviation from the rules,

Not really, you already have to declare all your split fire at the same time. You have to declare the 8 bolters are shooting at the guardsmen, the plasma gun is shooting at the Hellhound, and the Lascannon is shooting at the Leman Russ. Now you have to do it for both waves.


If the emphasis on Resolve Attacks means what it sounds like - doing step 4 back to back.

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
because this is would be a significant deviation from the rules,

Not really, you already have to declare all your split fire at the same time. You have to declare the 8 bolters are shooting at the guardsmen, the plasma gun is shooting at the Hellhound, and the Lascannon is shooting at the Leman Russ. Now you have to do it for both waves.


If the emphasis on Resolve Attacks means what it sounds like - doing step 4 back to back.

Ok, that would be possible. But we dont know. The FAQ doesnt answer how to handle it exactly. HIWPI, its steps 1-4 first time, steps 2-4 second time. I believe thats the intention.

My question is, because this has happened twice to me:

Shoot with Agggressors at Rhino. Dies, blows up. Mortal Wounds. I go to resolve my shooting in the model before removing it from the table, and am told no, it's dead, it doesn't get to shoot twice.

I had been playing that is was the same as having a second set of guns, and I get to resolve all attacks before the model dies.

Next time ask your opponent before the game. The rules are not clear.

That is a pretty specific instance to dream up before hand. I try to find the general rule that handles a given action, Shooting, movement, etc, and then dig down from there.

I don't mind the 105 books needed to compete, I mind the mindless rules bloat that needlessly complicates a situation.

I actually agree that I should die mid shooting. That makes thematic sense. But we don't go by common sense in 40k. We go by crazy.

I think you played it correctly.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That is a pretty specific instance to dream up before hand. I try to find the general rule that handles a given action, Shooting, movement, etc, and then dig down from there.

I don't mind the 105 books needed to compete, I mind the mindless rules bloat that needlessly complicates a situation.

I actually agree that I should die mid shooting. That makes thematic sense. But we don't go by common sense in 40k. We go by crazy.

You resolve the second round of attacks immediately after resolving the first - however it works if its Step 4 over again, or Step 2-4 over again, its immediately after, so that happens:

Potentially before the tank/vehicle checks for a blow up - you check for the explosion during remove casualties so it's a little ambiguous. One could argue you check for the explosion, but it doesn't explode until after the second wave.

Definitely before you apply the mortal wounds from the explosion to your unit because it's immediately per the FAQ

I would argue that if the first volley of shooting resulted in MW being applied and killing the aggressors, they aren't alive to fire that second volley. The MW is a result of the first firing action, and that has to be resolved before firing a second time.

Wouldn't that be how it is applied to Berserkers or other units in CQC when they get to fight multiple times?

Edit - The idea that you might deal with the explosion after the second volley is also a bit fuzzy, because if you argue that the first volley takes out the tank (causing the troops inside the disembark) then that would reinforce the point that the tank possibly blows up (causing mortal wounds to be applied) before that second volley. If I am not rolling for the tank's possible explosion until after the second shot, then my troops are not on the field for you to possibly target for that second volley.


Hopefully this isn't too old of a thread to post on, but I use my share of Rhino and Razorback units. Worth clarifying for me.