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I have an opponent who is claiming strategems like feeder tendrils can be used to gain CP multiple times in a battle round... is this correct ?



Edit:

Nevermind everyone.

Strategems are not abilities ... The rule makes complete sense. Sorry for annoying everyone. This ones on me.

 Type40 wrote:
I have an opponent who is claiming strategems like feeder tendrils can be used to gain CP multiple times in a battle round... is this correct ?

Read the Tactical Restraint rule. Your question is literally answered by the final line of the rule.

Thank you for that information.
Obviously I wouldn't be posting here if we hadn't read the rule.

let me clarify.

"There are several Warlord Traits, Relics, psychic powers and abilities that give you a chance to gain or refund Command Points. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 Command Point per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and Command Points that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a battle round, such as those that are used ‘before the battle’, can never be refunded.
The limit of gaining or refunding 1 Command Point per battle round does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule, neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems (e.g. Feeder Tendrils and Agents of Vect)."


So the line you are refering too is in the second paragraph...
This seems to imply that stratagems are not limited to the 1 command point refund. I.e. the topic of the paragraph it is in.
It does not say "tactical restraints do not aply to strategems."
It says that the limit of gaining or refunding 1 command point per battle round does not apply to strategems... as per how english writing works. The sentence of one paragraph does not refrence another unless it specifically refers to it...



Nevermind everyone.

Strategems are not abilities ... The rule makes complete sense. Sorry for annoying everyone. This ones on me.

It literally says that it doesnt apply to stratagems, so you can use those to gain multiple CPs per battle round. Keep in mind that strategic discipline only allows the use of a stratagem once per phase.

So your saying that the word "this" refers to the entire Tactical Restraints rule ? Because that is "Literrally" ambigious. Hence my questions.

Try the second paragraph again:

The limit of gaining or refunding 1 Command Point per battle round does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule, neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems (e.g. Feeder Tendrils and Agents of Vect).

The limit of gaining or refunding 1 Command Point per battle round does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule, neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems (e.g. Feeder Tendrils and Agents of Vect).

Right, and the next part of the paragraph tells you what to do if you do ignore the limit of gaining or refunding one CP per battle round. I.e. "once any CP have been gained as a result of the rule, niether it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more command points until the next battle round".

So the word "this" can be refering to, the entire rule, the first half of the first sentence (and its clauses), or to the entire paragraph.

Option A: the entire rule: hey ignore tactical restraints all together... including the first paragraph instruction of not being able to refund points before a battle round (unlikely as strategems are specifically refrenced)

Option B: the first half of the first sentence and its clauses: telling you that strategems also ignore the limitation of 1 cp per battleround, niether it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more CP until the next battle round.

option C: The entire paragraph: strategems can only gain 1 cp back per turn because strategems ignore that particular paragraph and not the first one.

Also, if it does allow strategems to be used to gain CP multiple times in a battle round, what happens if you use a warlord trait to gain multiple CP in a battleround... strategems certainly have similar rules,,, so in that case you can't ?

The way this is written is certainly not clear.

 Type40 wrote:
So your saying that the word "this" refers to the entire Tactical Restraints rule ? Because that is "Literrally" ambigious. Hence my questions.

´

Yes, thats my opinion. But I dont think it makes a big difference, because of the strategic discipline rule.

 p5freak wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
So your saying that the word "this" refers to the entire Tactical Restraints rule ? Because that is "Literrally" ambigious. Hence my questions.

´

Yes, thats my opinion. But I dont think it makes a big difference, because of the strategic discipline rule.

If it refers to the entire "tactical restraints rule" then you can use strategems outside of a battle-round ... even though it explicitly says you can't,,, if it then goes on to say, none of this applies to strategems ...
Out of all the ways this can be interpreted, I think that's the least likely ... It must refer to either the entire second paragraph, meaning strategems can only generate a max 1 CP or it must refer to the first sentence and its clauses, meaning strategems can generate multiple once per battle round...

If the RAI is something different, it isn't written there.

It means that feeler tendrils can potentially net +4 CP a battle-round, consistently average +2 against a character heavy list.

Kinda big deal even with strategic discipline rule.

I only post about this becuase it really isn't clear. The word "this" in this syntax can really be refering to several parts of the rule and depending on what exactly it refers to changes how to apply it in at least 3 different ways.

 Type40 wrote:
So your saying that the word "this" refers to the entire Tactical Restraints rule ? Because that is "Literrally" ambigious. Hence my questions.

Given the op asked about something like Feeder Tendrils, and they use feeder tendrils as an example of a stratagem not limited by tactical restraint, I would say that it's clear. You can get as many CP's back as stated in the stratagem.

I'm going to revise my prior argument. Here is the rule in question, with coloring added be me for easier discussion.

Tactical Restraint wrote:There are several Warlord Traits, Relics, psychic powers and abilities that give you a chance to gain or refund Command Points. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 Command Point per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and Command Points that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a battle round, such as those that are used ‘before the battle’, can never be refunded.
The limit of gaining or refunding 1 Command Point per battle round does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule, neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems (e.g. Feeder Tendrils and Agents of Vect).

1.Red is the basic rule of Tactical Restraint. You cannot gain/refund more than 1 CP per battle round and no refund of points for those used outside of battle rounds.
2. Orange is the first provision allowing more than 1 CP per battle round, but the ability taking the place of the 1 CP per battle round.
3. Cyan is a second provision allowing more than 1 CP per battle round, which for Stratagems is you follow the rule outside of the limitation.

There is no ambiguity in the rule. Just a rule with two separate exceptions.

 alextroy wrote:
I'm going to revise my prior argument. Here is the rule in question, with coloring added be me for easier discussion.

Tactical Restraint wrote:There are several Warlord Traits, Relics, psychic powers and abilities that give you a chance to gain or refund Command Points. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 Command Point per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source, and Command Points that are spent on Stratagems that are not used during a battle round, such as those that are used ‘before the battle’, can never be refunded.
The limit of gaining or refunding 1 Command Point per battle round does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule, neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems (e.g. Feeder Tendrils and Agents of Vect).

1.Red is the basic rule of Tactical Restraint. You cannot gain/refund more than 1 CP per battle round and no refund of points for those used outside of battle rounds.
2. Orange is the first provision allowing more than 1 CP per battle round, but the ability taking the place of the 1 CP per battle round.
3. Cyan is a second provision allowing more than 1 CP per battle round, which for Stratagems is you follow the rule outside of the limitation.

There is no ambiguity in the rule. Just a rule with two separate exceptions.

Can you provide a citation for this parsing ? and explain to me how you are concluding that "this" refers to what you are saying it does?

You can highlight it all you want, but what you are saying here is that the Cyan text is exempting it from the entire rule... thus the last sentence in the first paragraph... thus what you are saying is that even though they wrote that strategems can not be used in outside of a battle round you should ignore that because strategems are exempt from this rule.

Not to mention the Cynan text exists within the second paragraph, not one on its own. According to text formating, that means the any ambiguous words in the sentence like "this" should be refering to something in the second paragraph.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
So your saying that the word "this" refers to the entire Tactical Restraints rule ? Because that is "Literrally" ambigious. Hence my questions.

Given the op asked about something like Feeder Tendrils, and they use feeder tendrils as an example of a stratagem not limited by tactical restraint, I would say that it's clear. You can get as many CP's back as stated in the stratagem.

Please read the OPs following posts to understand where the difference in interpretations are coming from. I.e. that the word "this" in the final sentence is not a clear refrence. As it can refrence either the entire rule, the entire second paragraph or just the first sentence and its clauses. If the RAI trying to say it is an exception to the entire rule except for the part about strategems not being able to be used outside of battle rounds, that is not clear and not actually what it says.

I am asking someone to explain, logically and gramatically what "this" refers to. It's kind of annoying that people keep saying "it explicitly says that you can not" when the only way that could be true is for that sentence tobe telling you to ignore an earlier sentence refering specifically to strategems.

So please read the above before repeating an answer that has been posted several times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, another interpretation of "this" could mean that if you use a stratagem to gain CP back, then moment shackles, POT and seven-fold-chant can no longer gain any CP back...

the word "this" in this context is incredibly unclear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:



Edit:


Nevermind everyone.

Strategems are not abilities ... The rule makes complete sense. Sorry for annoying everyone. This ones on me.

You are free to disagree with my parsing, but they are literal 4 sentences, two in red are the first paragraph and the orange and cyan are in the second paragraph.

Orange (second paragraph, first sentence) references the first paragraph (limit to gaining more than 1 CP per battle round) and notes an exclusion.

Cyan (second paragraph, first sentence) starts with "also", which means it is an additional idea that is in agreement with the prior idea https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/also-as-well-or-too

 alextroy wrote:
You are free to disagree with my parsing, but they are literal 4 sentences, two in red are the first paragraph and the orange and cyan are in the second paragraph.

Orange (second paragraph, first sentence) references the first paragraph (limit to gaining more than 1 CP per battle round) and notes an exclusion.

Cyan (second paragraph, first sentence) starts with "also", which means it is an additional idea that is in agreement with the prior idea https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/also-as-well-or-too

Please read the edit I added to my first and last post from a few minutes before you posted this.

I apologise for my arguments,
I made the mistake of thinking that stratagems were a type of ability. This really made that paragraph confusing. I was wrong . Sorry for anoying everyone. Thanks for the discourse .

All good Type40. The point of these discussions is to get to an area of mutual understanding. All the better when we can instead of getting into circular arguments about what the meaning of the work "is" is