Units that have lost their way

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**Eipi10**

Bullgryns always struck me as Ogryn elite, I would almost say normal Ogryns should be a troop choice. And a points drop is the clear answer, same for ratlings. The guard doesn't need elite, highcost units like marines.

But do you think the deathstrike should deal unsaved wounds instead of mortal wounds to make it more of a blob killer and less of an elite killer? I'm not as confident about that as when I first wrote the suggestion.

As far as the model goes, the entire guard range needs a remake as bad as the eldar. I wouldn't hold my breath for a price drop, unfortunately. I personally find it hard to justify paying much more than $10 for anything on a 40mm base.

**Elbows**

Ogryns simply suffer from being absolute garbage compared to their box-mate, Bullgryns. All Ogryns need is a comparable "purpose". They have far less survivability and far less damage output, and worse armour....so...why does anyone need them unless they're dirt cheap, which they aren't.

You could fix them by making the ripper gun worth a gak. Assault 4, throw in a -1 AP, and give it the old 2nd edition "this weapon hits automatically within 6 inches" rule, etc. They need something that Bullgryns don't just do far better than them across the board.

**Bharring**

Elbows wrote:
The easiest way I can see the fix most of the game...is via Keywords.

[...]

In the Eldar army, for instance, it's pretty easy to argue that Guardians are the preferred troop choice over Dire Avengers. This flies in the face of the fluff/lore. More of the Eldar Stratagems, etc. should be aimed at the <ASPECT WARRIOR> keyword, and should help elevate the actual fighting units of the Eldar Craftworld. This could be modified for Ulthwe, which would return the purpose of Black Guardians - they might be exempt from the limits of the basic Guardian keywords, etc.

Books could do with a handful more stratagems, but the stratagems should be aimed more narrowly at units. I remember the first time we read the "go to ground" Stratagem for Imperial Guard, which originally could be used on things like Baneblades (they late FAQ'ed this). Simply put too many units, particularly weak ones, just benefit far too much from bonuses and benefits. Changing/reducing that could go a long way.

I would love to see them really go full-hog on the "Aspect Warrior" vs Guardian difference. Restrict Battle Focus to Aspect Warriors. Remove Bladestorm and give DAs the relevant rules. And soforth. (And obviously rebalance the faction.)

Ideally:
Dire Avengers: When using an Avenger Shuriken Catapault, wounds of a 6 are at AP-3.
Swooping Hawks: LasBlasters are Assault2 base. Swooping Hawks may fire LasBlassters as Assault4 (or RF2)
Striking Scorpions: They get Chainswords. Scorpions wielding Chainswords get +1S.
Fire Dragons: Already do this (Assured Destruction). Maybe give them "One Fire Dragon may use MeltaBombs in CC?

You could then let Guardians take LasBlasters, Avenger Shuriken Catapualts, etc, and they'd come nowhere close to crowding out the Aspects.

This is a much more full-rewritethecodex concept than a simple thread post, though. And will never happen for a dozen reasons.

**Hawky**

Chris521 wrote:
Hawky wrote:
yada yada

Conscripts: In addition to taking a point off, I would make them Auxiliary units instead of <Regiment>. One of the things that makes high model count units hard to balance is their ability to efficiently use buffs. When you take away things like doctrines and orders (was anyone actually wasting their orders on them anyway?), they will just be 3 point chaff units like they should be, but they still has a few things to support them like commissars.

I think that Chimera and Vets go hand in hand. The kinds of tweaks above for the chimera along with vets as troops would help bring back the Mech Vet play style from previous editions. Additionally, though it's not really the theme of this thread, I would like to see their elite spot replaced with a new unit; Regimental Storm Troopers. These would be like scions but they are cheaper, without deep strike, and have the <Regiment Keyword>. They would be another choice to put in the Chimera. (Think Kasrkins or classic Storm troopers)

Exterminator: Heavy 8, maybe costs a bit more

Vanquisher: After running a lot of numbers, my favorite profile that I tested was Heavy 1 S14 AP-4 3D3 Damage, +1 to hit when Stationary. I kept it at heavy 1 so it would keep its identity and the +1 makes it so even the BS4+ version could be taken. S14, Ap-4 makes it so only the heaviest vehicles with hold up against it. 2d6 Damage was performing a bit better than I wanted so I lowered it to 3d3. While the average damage is a little lower, it is a more reliable number.

But really, the thing that needs fixing is the relationship between Tank Commanders and normal Russes. You look at our infantry and commanders and you see the Commanders buffing the troops while being protected by them. This is what our tanks need and it would require two changes. The first would be to give Tank Commanders two more orders. This will allow him to order himself and two other tanks (Pask can order 3 others). This change alone wont fix much since TCs are already the biggest bullet magnets in the codex and would just be focused first. I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be, but the normal Russes need a way to take the heat off of their commanders. I see two basic ways of doing this. Either give russes a body guard rule to take the hits, or create a pseudo character rule that would make the Commander untargetable if it is not the closest visible Leman Russ (I would leave the exact wording of the rule to someone else).

On conscripts: I really like the idea. Although losing the <regiment> would hamper the Valhallan order of shooting into close combat (which is very cool and fluffy) I think. Not sure about the wording there. On the other hand, 30 Vostroyan conscripts shooting on 3 (stratagem + searchlight) isn't that fluffy.

On "Kasrkin": Heck yeah. Although make the Hellgun optional, I hate the 18" range (and I play Vostroyans). Or Keep it 18" but switch to Assault 2 rather than Rapid Fire. FRFSRF makes it Assault 3.

On Exterminator: Heavy 8? That would be 16 shots on Grinding Advance. Too much in my opinion. I'm for Heavy 6. SM Predator is also Heavy 3 I think, so twice as much, with D2.

On Vanquisher: That sounds solid. Also, 3 damage minimum is a nice thing. Some weapons have "Treat roll of 1 and 2 as 3", namely the Onager Neutron Laser, so... why not.

On Tank Commanders: That could be a stratagem. Tank Platoon, 1CP. Select a Tank Commander and two or three regular Russes that form a tank platoon. The tank commander can then issue a single order to each surviving member of the platoon. The range still applies though. This will force you to take at least 3 tanks and you can order only them. Even other tank commanders can't order the platoon, and the platoon commander can't order tanks outside of his platoon. It could have a bonus that unless the tank commander is the closest to the attacking unit, the unit has -1 to hit modifier as long as the other two tanks are alive or something like that, or at least within 6" of the tank commander.

**Chris521**

Hawky wrote:

On Exterminator: Heavy 8? That would be 16 shots on Grinding Advance. Too much in my opinion. I'm for Heavy 6. SM Predator is also Heavy 3 I think, so twice as much, with D2.

Way back when I was running numbers on these weapons, the two that I was playing around with was Heavy 6 or Heavy 8 + price increase and I chose the second.

**Eipi10**

Elbows wrote:
Ogryns simply suffer from being absolute garbage compared to their box-mate, Bullgryns. All Ogryns need is a comparable "purpose". They have far less survivability and far less damage output, and worse armour....so...why does anyone need them unless they're dirt cheap, which they aren't.

You could fix them by making the ripper gun worth a gak. Assault 4, throw in a -1 AP, and give it the old 2nd edition "this weapon hits automatically within 6 inches" rule, etc. They need something that Bullgryns don't just do far better than them across the board.

Ogryns are already so much better than marines that it's kinda sad (not taking points into account). I think a point's drop is what they need, maybe even being made a troop choice.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Elbows wrote:
Ogryns simply suffer from being absolute garbage compared to their box-mate, Bullgryns. All Ogryns need is a comparable "purpose". They have far less survivability and far less damage output, and worse armour....so...why does anyone need them unless they're dirt cheap, which they aren't.

You could fix them by making the ripper gun worth a gak. Assault 4, throw in a -1 AP, and give it the old 2nd edition "this weapon hits automatically within 6 inches" rule, etc. They need something that Bullgryns don't just do far better than them across the board.

Ripper Guns could be Assault 4 and reroll wounds of 1. Seems okay for the price I guess?

**Turnip Jedi**

all speeder type things to have no penalty if shooting at the nearest thing

Swooping hawks stop being so sporting and the grenade pack throws dice related to their size alone including characters as just under 2 MW for a barrage for a full squad is on par with most other character snipes

**Reivax26**

I am looking at my Dark Angels codex and laughing at all the units in it that practically never get used. We are known for Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Deathwing Knights need to be able to deep strike and charge more reliably. Terminators as a whole are not reliable in this edition at all when facing an army with even a decent amount of shooting.

Maybe give a Terminator the armor save and then the invul if the other fails. That would probably help a lot.

**warpedpig**

Swooping hawks really suffer from not being able to make use of their mobility to not get slaughtered In one round of return fire. They should be able to fly over stuff and fire. And then land in cover if they make their move properly. Dropping Grenades and shooting their las blasters. Not enough to really harm heavy duty units too much but enough to harass and not get shredded on the enemies next turn. As it stands if you land near a marine unit and shoot you hardly kill anything and then the marines just rapid fire murder them all next turn. They have no real value beyond one turn of shooting. Same with fire dragons. They last one turn and then they die. Every time.

**Slayer-Fan123**

warpedpig wrote:
Swooping hawks really suffer from not being able to make use of their mobility to not get slaughtered In one round of return fire. They should be able to fly over stuff and fire. And then land in cover if they make their move properly. Dropping Grenades and shooting their las blasters. Not enough to really harm heavy duty units too much but enough to harass and not get shredded on the enemies next turn. As it stands if you land near a marine unit and shoot you hardly kill anything and then the marines just rapid fire murder them all next turn. They have no real value beyond one turn of shooting. Same with fire dragons. They last one turn and then they die. Every time.

Part of your problem stems from the IGOUGO system, so there ya go.

**Bharring**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
warpedpig wrote:
Swooping hawks really suffer from not being able to make use of their mobility to not get slaughtered In one round of return fire. They should be able to fly over stuff and fire. And then land in cover if they make their move properly. Dropping Grenades and shooting their las blasters. Not enough to really harm heavy duty units too much but enough to harass and not get shredded on the enemies next turn. As it stands if you land near a marine unit and shoot you hardly kill anything and then the marines just rapid fire murder them all next turn. They have no real value beyond one turn of shooting. Same with fire dragons. They last one turn and then they die. Every time.

Part of your problem stems from the IGOUGO system, so there ya go.

My FireDragons and Swooping Hawks (and most other aspects) love IGOUGO. I agree that AA would be a better game, but IGOUGO lets you use your units in unison so you can leverage glass canons and eliminate their response before their turn.

**Hellebore**

If Eldar could make assault moves whether they were assaulting or not, it would go a long way to reflecting their hit and run tactics, and speed as defence.

**Gadzilla666**

Raptors don't have remotely the fast blitzkrieg cc feel they should. Instead they are usually just a delivery method for plasma or melta. Give them the onslaught rule (+d3 attacks on the charge) and maybe a bonus to charging. Maybe bring back hammer of wrath. That would make them more worth the points and more people might take them.

**Elbows**

Raptors and Assault marines were helped heavily by the recent +1 attack...but I'd say give a generic "Roll a D6, on a '6' inflict a mortal wound" when charging to any marine jump pack models (even if you limit it to assault marines/raptors). If they're not going to get heaps of attacks, they need some purpose or trick that says "this is why you take these guys".

Even with the new rules, throwing 3 strength 4 attacks with no AP is simply...laughable for a Space Marine.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
warpedpig wrote:
Swooping hawks really suffer from not being able to make use of their mobility to not get slaughtered In one round of return fire. They should be able to fly over stuff and fire. And then land in cover if they make their move properly. Dropping Grenades and shooting their las blasters. Not enough to really harm heavy duty units too much but enough to harass and not get shredded on the enemies next turn. As it stands if you land near a marine unit and shoot you hardly kill anything and then the marines just rapid fire murder them all next turn. They have no real value beyond one turn of shooting. Same with fire dragons. They last one turn and then they die. Every time.

Part of your problem stems from the IGOUGO system, so there ya go.

My FireDragons and Swooping Hawks (and most other aspects) love IGOUGO. I agree that AA would be a better game, but IGOUGO lets you use your units in unison so you can leverage glass canons and eliminate their response before their turn.

Everyone LOVES the IGOUGO when they get first turn offensive with no consequences.
It isn't a balanced system and it isn't a system that makes sense. If anything, AA would be better so you aren't SoL when you have to unfortunately go second to your opponent.

**warpedpig**

Overwatch used to be where you would not do anything with your unit on your turn. Then on the enemy turn if they moved into view you could shoot at them with your units in overwatch

**Elbows**

Yep, and that kind of overwatch made for very stale games (though there were quite a few negatives involved and some sneaky ways around it (you could crawl and hide if you had suitable cover, etc.). It definitely turned into a stalemate most games if you went heavy on overwatch.

**Gadzilla666**

Elbows wrote:
Raptors and Assault marines were helped heavily by the recent +1 attack...but I'd say give a generic "Roll a D6, on a '6' inflict a mortal wound" when charging to any marine jump pack models (even if you limit it to assault marines/raptors). If they're not going to get heaps of attacks, they need some purpose or trick that says "this is why you take these guys".

Even with the new rules, throwing 3 strength 4 attacks with no AP is simply...laughable for a Space Marine.

I got the onslaught rule idea from hh. It's the rule for night raptors and since the night lords jump troops are what the raptor cults are supposed to be based off of I thought it would fit. The hh rules also lets units with jump packs reroll charge distances. I like that better than giving anything with the fly keyword the ability to fall back and shoot.

**Bharring**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
warpedpig wrote:
Swooping hawks really suffer from not being able to make use of their mobility to not get slaughtered In one round of return fire. They should be able to fly over stuff and fire. And then land in cover if they make their move properly. Dropping Grenades and shooting their las blasters. Not enough to really harm heavy duty units too much but enough to harass and not get shredded on the enemies next turn. As it stands if you land near a marine unit and shoot you hardly kill anything and then the marines just rapid fire murder them all next turn. They have no real value beyond one turn of shooting. Same with fire dragons. They last one turn and then they die. Every time.

Part of your problem stems from the IGOUGO system, so there ya go.

My FireDragons and Swooping Hawks (and most other aspects) love IGOUGO. I agree that AA would be a better game, but IGOUGO lets you use your units in unison so you can leverage glass canons and eliminate their response before their turn.

Everyone LOVES the IGOUGO when they get first turn offensive with no consequences.
It isn't a balanced system and it isn't a system that makes sense. If anything, AA would be better so you aren't SoL when you have to unfortunately go second to your opponent.

Idon't disagree that AA could make for a more balanced system. In the context of the thread, though, it would hurt Aspects more than it would help them. They're one of the principle benefactors of IGOUGO (and are pointed accordingly). Both mechanically and narratively. They'd need substantial reworks for AA. So AA doesn't help them "find their way" - it makes them more lost than before. (Which I would accept to move to a great AA scheme, but that's not the subject of this thread.)

**Wyldhunt**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Raptors don't have remotely the fast blitzkrieg cc feel they should. Instead they are usually just a delivery method for plasma or melta. Give them the onslaught rule (+d3 attacks on the charge) and maybe a bonus to charging. Maybe bring back hammer of wrath. That would make them more worth the points and more people might take them.

Comparing assault marines/raptors to vanguard vets and warp talons, I kind of feel like the special weapons are supposed to be their niche. Instead of investing in a drop pod or risking a transport that might get blown up before you cross the table, you can just deepstrike the assault marines/raptors into position. And then the fly keyword lets them bounce out of combat to shoot again after they've charged the enemy lines.

If you make assault marines/raptors as stabby for their price as warp talons and vanguard vets, then what's the point of warp talons and vanguard vets? If anything, I'd kind of like to be able to squeeze more special weapons into assault/raptor squads.

Also, in case you weren't aware, hammer of wrath is sorta kinda back in stratagem form for loyalist marines. It gives each guy in a jump pack squad a chance of doing mortal wounds on the charge.

**Gadzilla666**

Wyldhunt wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Raptors don't have remotely the fast blitzkrieg cc feel they should. Instead they are usually just a delivery method for plasma or melta. Give them the onslaught rule (+d3 attacks on the charge) and maybe a bonus to charging. Maybe bring back hammer of wrath. That would make them more worth the points and more people might take them.

Comparing assault marines/raptors to vanguard vets and warp talons, I kind of feel like the special weapons are supposed to be their niche. Instead of investing in a drop pod or risking a transport that might get blown up before you cross the table, you can just deepstrike the assault marines/raptors into position. And then the fly keyword lets them bounce out of combat to shoot again after they've charged the enemy lines.

If you make assault marines/raptors as stabby for their price as warp talons and vanguard vets, then what's the point of warp talons and vanguard vets? If anything, I'd kind of like to be able to squeeze more special weapons into assault/raptor squads.

Also, in case you weren't aware, hammer of wrath is sorta kinda back in stratagem form for loyalist marines. It gives each guy in a jump pack squad a chance of doing mortal wounds on the charge.

Warp talons aren't really all that much more stabby than raptors. And how does pointing out one more thing that the loyalists get that csm don't improve matters? And we have enough shooting. We need more stabbing.

**Wyldhunt**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
[size=18]
Warp talons aren't really all that much more stabby than raptors. And how does pointing out one more thing that the loyalists get that csm don't improve matters? And we have enough shooting. We need more stabbing.

Well, if there's that little separating their levels of stabbery, then there's even less room to buff the stabbery of raptors before they make each other redundant entirely, right?

As for the loyalist stuff, that was half-aimed at elbows who mentioned assault marines and the concept of giving units a niche. My bad for not being more clear.

**Gadzilla666**

Wyldhunt wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
[size=18]
Warp talons aren't really all that much more stabby than raptors. And how does pointing out one more thing that the loyalists get that csm don't improve matters? And we have enough shooting. We need more stabbing.

Well, if there's that little separating their levels of stabbery, then there's even less room to buff the stabbery of raptors before they make each other redundant entirely, right?

As for the loyalist stuff, that was half-aimed at elbows who mentioned assault marines and the concept of giving units a niche. My bad for not being more clear.

I'd say that it shows both raptors and warp talons should have their cc abilities buffed. Cc is too weak in 8th it needs to be made stronger. Too many gun lines.

**some bloke**

For Orks:

Boys: The number one weirdness with Orks is that grots are now preferred over Boys. I would prefer to see a bit more variety in Boys units, by splitting them into separate units:

Slugga Boys: may take 1 boss nob for every 10 boys (EG 10 get 1, 20 get 2, 30 will be 3 nobs and 27 boys). A new kit with some specialist CC weapons would be pretty cool, but perhaps unnecessary complication. Perhaps give slugga boys the now widely available "+1 attack when they charge, or are charged" rule.

Shootaboys: as above but only one Nob, up to 5 special weapons.

Snazzboyz: perhaps band-moons only. Boys with kustom shootas, 10-20 models.

Feral Orks: snakebites boys, but 2 choppas and no sluggas. faster movement than normal boys (6")

'ard Boys: 4+ save. 'nuff said.

Trukkboys: A rule for any mob of 12 or less orks who start the game in a trukk, allowing them to disembark after the trukk moves - they may not move any further, but may charge.

Ork speed freeks need an overhaul to make it better for fast units rather than slow ones!

**Pointed Stick**

some bloke wrote:
For Orks:

Boys: The number one weirdness with Orks is that grots are now preferred over Boys. I would prefer to see a bit more variety in Boys units, by splitting them into separate units:

This has more to do with the fact that many Ork units are quite CP hungry, and grots are the cheapest way to amass CPs. If you fix that problem, then people will take grots in more reasonable numbers IMO.

some bloke wrote:

Slugga Boys: may take 1 boss nob for every 10 boys (EG 10 get 1, 20 get 2, 30 will be 3 nobs and 27 boys). A new kit with some specialist CC weapons would be pretty cool, but perhaps unnecessary complication. Perhaps give slugga boys the now widely available "+1 attack when they charge, or are charged" rule.

So they would basically be taking extra Nobz instead of extra special weapons? You'd need to fix the fact that the nob in the unit is currently a free upgrade!

some bloke wrote:

Shootaboys: as above but only one Nob, up to 5 special weapons.

This makes some sense. Would probably want to remove their +1 attack in close combat for being a big mob. Maybe instead give them +1 to hit when there are 20 or more and then take away the Dakka Dakka Dakka rule army-wide.

some bloke wrote:

Snazzboyz: perhaps band-moons only. Boys with kustom shootas, 10-20 models.

Instead, just let Nobz take Kustom Shootas. Then a nob with a Kustom Shoota has the firepower of two shoota boys for 2 points more than the cost of 2 shoota boyz, but with all the advantages and disadvantages of being a smaller unit of Nobz.

some bloke wrote:

Feral Orks: snakebites boys, but 2 choppas and no sluggas. faster movement than normal boys (6")

These would be the go-to units then. An extra choppa is wirth 10x a slugga. There would be no real reason to take Slugga Boyz anymore. A better approach IMO would be to fix the Snakebites clan so that people actually want to use them.

some bloke wrote:

'ard Boys: 4+ save. 'nuff said.

+1, I think it's silly how this is a Strategem.

some bloke wrote:

Trukkboys: A rule for any mob of 12 or less orks who start the game in a trukk, allowing them to disembark after the trukk moves - they may not move any further, but may charge.

Big +1; this would make Trukk Boyz actually useful again. But you don't need to create a whole new unit; just give that ability to the Trukk itself.