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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I wonder if they'll "fix" Alaitoc.

You mean realise that 1/6th bonus durability for free is broken?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I wonder if they'll "fix" Alaitoc.

You mean realise that 1/6th bonus durability for free is broken?

*shrug* it didn't devastate the game on its own. It would be nice to see it reeled back though.

It's not about devastating the game...it's about one Craftworld trait being heads and tails above all the others. It's akin to running Tau for Tau, etc. It's piss-poor game design when something is free, but one of five or six choices is miles better than any other option. It's the same with mega-powerful characters. It makes the game far more boring when you're still able to pick out "the best", and you'd be stupid not to use it in a competitive setting. I don't do tournaments, but I can guarantee you the tournament setting would be far better off/more interesting if you played against an Eldar army and it could be any of five or six genuinely useful traits, instead of just one. (Occasionally you might run into Ulthwe...maaaaybe).

That's a problem with the other traits, not Alaitoc's. Give the Craft Worlds bonuses for going mono, buff the underwhelming ones, and game on. The fact that one flyer can be made very hard to hit isn't game breaking in the current context of the game. It's almost cute at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the chapter master reroll buff that's been rolled out recently drastically brings Alaitoc-style traits back into line.

 Elbows wrote:
It's not about devastating the game...it's about one Craftworld trait being heads and tails above all the others. It's akin to running Tau for Tau, etc. It's piss-poor game design when something is free, but one of five or six choices is miles better than any other option. It's the same with mega-powerful characters. It makes the game far more boring when you're still able to pick out "the best", and you'd be stupid not to use it in a competitive setting. I don't do tournaments, but I can guarantee you the tournament setting would be far better off/more interesting if you played against an Eldar army and it could be any of five or six genuinely useful traits, instead of just one. (Occasionally you might run into Ulthwe...maaaaybe).

I won't disagree with that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It's not about devastating the game...it's about one Craftworld trait being heads and tails above all the others. It's akin to running Tau for Tau, etc. It's piss-poor game design when something is free, but one of five or six choices is miles better than any other option. It's the same with mega-powerful characters. It makes the game far more boring when you're still able to pick out "the best", and you'd be stupid not to use it in a competitive setting. I don't do tournaments, but I can guarantee you the tournament setting would be far better off/more interesting if you played against an Eldar army and it could be any of five or six genuinely useful traits, instead of just one. (Occasionally you might run into Ulthwe...maaaaybe).

I won't disagree with that.

Seconded.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I wonder if they'll "fix" Alaitoc.

You mean realise that 1/6th bonus durability for free is broken?

It's much, much higher than 1/6th assuming the attacker's base BS is worse than BS1

Judging by the Iron Hands release, GW is perfectly fine with some subfactions utterly outclassing the rest.

Wow - a box set of 12 minis, two of which will ensure that no one wants to buy doubles - great thinking GW!

Spoletta wrote:
Clampacks are impossible.

Making a clampack means making a mold for a single model which is hardly taken in multiples by players, They can exist only for marines, and even there they have to price them high to recoup the expenses.

No, multi unit packs are what i expect for xenos.

Rubbish- all the AoS factions have clam packs, the latest Xenos faction release - Genestealer Cults has a number of clam packs- they are totally doable for non marine factions.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It's not about devastating the game...it's about one Craftworld trait being heads and tails above all the others. It's akin to running Tau for Tau, etc. It's piss-poor game design when something is free, but one of five or six choices is miles better than any other option. It's the same with mega-powerful characters. It makes the game far more boring when you're still able to pick out "the best", and you'd be stupid not to use it in a competitive setting. I don't do tournaments, but I can guarantee you the tournament setting would be far better off/more interesting if you played against an Eldar army and it could be any of five or six genuinely useful traits, instead of just one. (Occasionally you might run into Ulthwe...maaaaybe).

I won't disagree with that.

Seconded.

I wonder if the game would be more balanced if for Matched Play we could only use the "create your own" Traits? Might be an interesting way to keep things balanced?

 Stormonu wrote:
Wow - a box set of 12 minis, two of which will ensure that no one wants to buy doubles - great thinking GW!

The box also includes Hellions, Scourges and the Venom; on the Eldar side, it also includes the Falcon and the Vyper.

Interesting that the Phoenix Rising book is separate from the set. I wonder which will sell better- the book or the box. I figure the book will be for the established players while the box is for people looking to break in. I'm going to need both.

Hopefully we don't have to wait too long for the new minis to come as separates.

 Eldarain wrote:
Why should super doctrines remain marine only? I like the idea of using them as the mono army incentive.

I can easily see Tyranids having the stages of invasion/digestion as theirs.

to my mind it's a matter of taking what makes the army unique, standout and thus compeitive and watering it down by giving everyone it. some armies already have a ton of special rules, but Marines don't. so giving those armies the special rules Marines ahve in addition to their own... invites imbalance. this isn't to say similer effects for other armies isn't a bad idea, just I hope GW doesn't willy nilly assign them to a point where suddenly Marines are complete suck again. That said some armies definatly could use that style of boost.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It's not about devastating the game...it's about one Craftworld trait being heads and tails above all the others. It's akin to running Tau for Tau, etc. It's piss-poor game design when something is free, but one of five or six choices is miles better than any other option. It's the same with mega-powerful characters. It makes the game far more boring when you're still able to pick out "the best", and you'd be stupid not to use it in a competitive setting. I don't do tournaments, but I can guarantee you the tournament setting would be far better off/more interesting if you played against an Eldar army and it could be any of five or six genuinely useful traits, instead of just one. (Occasionally you might run into Ulthwe...maaaaybe).

I won't disagree with that.

Seconded.

I wonder if the game would be more balanced if for Matched Play we could only use the "create your own" Traits? Might be an interesting way to keep things balanced?

Munchkins would break it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
That's a problem with the other traits, not Alaitoc's. Give the Craft Worlds bonuses for going mono, buff the underwhelming ones, and game on. The fact that one flyer can be made very hard to hit isn't game breaking in the current context of the game. It's almost cute at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the chapter master reroll buff that's been rolled out recently drastically brings Alaitoc-style traits back into line.

It aint a problem with the traits, it's a problem of the designers.
Hell, if they cared two gaks about the w40k tabletop card game they would've gone back and addressed the weaker traits in the FAQ.
But... They didnt.

Munchkins would break it.

they would if GW wasn't careful, that said the "design your own chapter tactics" in codex space Marines is... solid, some decent options and most would work nicely with some fluff etc. but there aren't any obvious "OMG" power combos there. (if you want that go play iron hands) so long as GW continues that it'd work. my biggest fear is that as GW moves on and does more "design your own chapter tactics" they'll get more powerful and more outlandish. Consider the 8th edition codices over all, 8th started fairly restrained with codex space marines, but as time went by the power creep was very noticable

BrianDavion wrote:

Munchkins would break it.

they would if GW wasn't careful, that said the "design your own chapter tactics" in codex space Marines is... solid, some decent options and most would work nicely with some fluff etc. but there aren't any obvious "OMG" power combos there. (if you want that go play iron hands) so long as GW continues that it'd work. my biggest fear is that as GW moves on and does more "design your own chapter tactics" they'll get more powerful and more outlandish. Consider the 8th edition codices over all, 8th started fairly restrained with codex space marines, but as time went by the power creep was very noticable

Sorry but I have literally ZERO confidence that the trademark GW incompetence could not be found in any ruleset they write for custom chapters.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Munchkins would break it.

they would if GW wasn't careful, that said the "design your own chapter tactics" in codex space Marines is... solid, some decent options and most would work nicely with some fluff etc. but there aren't any obvious "OMG" power combos there. (if you want that go play iron hands) so long as GW continues that it'd work. my biggest fear is that as GW moves on and does more "design your own chapter tactics" they'll get more powerful and more outlandish. Consider the 8th edition codices over all, 8th started fairly restrained with codex space marines, but as time went by the power creep was very noticable

Sorry but I have literally ZERO confidence that the trademark GW incompetence could not be found in any ruleset they write for custom chapters.

I have nearly zero myself, as I said they've shown restrained with codex space marines, but the cynic in me says they'll produce some absolutely broken stuff for Eldar, like they always do.

"ok so each craftworld can design it's own tactics, from this list. this list will include treat as if in cover beyond 12 inches range. and -1 to hit beyond 12 inches, because it's not like that combo won't be completely fething broken!"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Munchkins would break it.

they would if GW wasn't careful, that said the "design your own chapter tactics" in codex space Marines is... solid, some decent options and most would work nicely with some fluff etc. but there aren't any obvious "OMG" power combos there. (if you want that go play iron hands) so long as GW continues that it'd work. my biggest fear is that as GW moves on and does more "design your own chapter tactics" they'll get more powerful and more outlandish. Consider the 8th edition codices over all, 8th started fairly restrained with codex space marines, but as time went by the power creep was very noticable

Sorry but I have literally ZERO confidence that the trademark GW incompetence could not be found in any ruleset they write for custom chapters.

I have nearly zero myself, as I said they've shown restrained with codex space marines, but the cynic in me says they'll produce some absolutely broken stuff for Eldar, like they always do.

"ok so each craftworld can design it's own tactics, from this list. this list will include treat as if in cover beyond 12 inches range. and -1 to hit beyond 12 inches, because it's not like that combo won't be completely fething broken!"

Sounds like you're writing the new Iron Hands chapter tactics lmao.

Don't forget that GW is a corporation and makes money off selling models, often abusing the rules to assist in selling plastic.

To GW restraint is about as long lasting as a childs self control in a toy/candy store. It was a miracle they kept things remotely even keel as long as they did. Then released the new marines, and DIY tactics, only to eclipse them away with iron hands and lord knows what else the last two we haven't seen will all throw down.

They can't even remain consistent for one full, albeit large, codex release. If I was Eldar I'd be pretty excited as I'm sure they'll be able to make at least one combo that will be bonkers out the gate. One build to rule them all.

kingheff wrote:
As the title suggests, do you think that the psychic awakening books will be about renewing the non marine codexes rather than all the factions getting new standalone codexes?
Personally I think non marine codexes won't be released and we'll get rules and changes in the relevant books.

No it is not.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Munchkins would break it.

they would if GW wasn't careful, that said the "design your own chapter tactics" in codex space Marines is... solid, some decent options and most would work nicely with some fluff etc. but there aren't any obvious "OMG" power combos there. (if you want that go play iron hands) so long as GW continues that it'd work. my biggest fear is that as GW moves on and does more "design your own chapter tactics" they'll get more powerful and more outlandish. Consider the 8th edition codices over all, 8th started fairly restrained with codex space marines, but as time went by the power creep was very noticable

Sorry but I have literally ZERO confidence that the trademark GW incompetence could not be found in any ruleset they write for custom chapters.

I have nearly zero myself, as I said they've shown restrained with codex space marines, but the cynic in me says they'll produce some absolutely broken stuff for Eldar, like they always do.

"ok so each craftworld can design it's own tactics, from this list. this list will include treat as if in cover beyond 12 inches range. and -1 to hit beyond 12 inches, because it's not like that combo won't be completely fething broken!"

Sounds like you're writing the new Iron Hands chapter tactics lmao.

Don't forget that GW is a corporation and makes money off selling models, often abusing the rules to assist in selling plastic.

No I just remember when the last marine codex came out, Marines where great for a bit, with raven guard being "almost OP" as other codices came out, Marines quickly became weak with even the raven guard being weak. I fully expect this to follow.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Why should super doctrines remain marine only? I like the idea of using them as the mono army incentive.

I can easily see Tyranids having the stages of invasion/digestion as theirs.

to my mind it's a matter of taking what makes the army unique, standout and thus compeitive and watering it down by giving everyone it. some armies already have a ton of special rules, but Marines don't. so giving those armies the special rules Marines ahve in addition to their own... invites imbalance. this isn't to say similer effects for other armies isn't a bad idea, just I hope GW doesn't willy nilly assign them to a point where suddenly Marines are complete suck again. That said some armies definatly could use that style of boost.

The irony here, is if you've played since 2nd ed, you'll see GW inventing new unique stuff and new unique rules for chapters that didn't exist before that actually took away from eldar armies like saim hann.

GW can't seem to give xenos armies unique stuff without later inventing super cool unique units and rules out of nothing just so marines can do everything anyone else does but better.

If craftworlds get even a tenth of that back, it a long time coming and well deserved.

weren't eldar disgustingly broken back in 2nd edition?

BrianDavion wrote:
weren't eldar disgustingly broken back in 2nd edition?

Eldar have been disgusting in quite a few editions. Potentially the most consistently top tier faction across the history of the game even.

Sweet baby jesus the salt on here, its ridiculous, insanity, ANARCHY I TELL YOU!!

We are into a hobby of collecting, building, painting and PLAYING WITH TOY SOLIDERS.

If you take this gak this seriously you only come across as, ....... Well, i think we all know what tbh!

PS: couldnt get past the first page of comments, the salt stings to badly xD

 FEARtheMoose wrote:
Sweet baby jesus the salt on here, its ridiculous, insanity, ANARCHY I TELL YOU!!

We are into a hobby of collecting, building, painting and PLAYING WITH TOY SOLIDERS.

If you take this gak this seriously you only come across as, ....... Well, i think we all know what tbh!

PS: couldnt get past the first page of comments, the salt stings to badly xD

Then why comment.
Some are unhappy with the direction GW takes the hobby. Sometimes more understandable then other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It's not about devastating the game...it's about one Craftworld trait being heads and tails above all the others. It's akin to running Tau for Tau, etc. It's piss-poor game design when something is free, but one of five or six choices is miles better than any other option. It's the same with mega-powerful characters. It makes the game far more boring when you're still able to pick out "the best", and you'd be stupid not to use it in a competitive setting. I don't do tournaments, but I can guarantee you the tournament setting would be far better off/more interesting if you played against an Eldar army and it could be any of five or six genuinely useful traits, instead of just one. (Occasionally you might run into Ulthwe...maaaaybe).

I won't disagree with that.

Seconded.

I wonder if the game would be more balanced if for Matched Play we could only use the "create your own" Traits? Might be an interesting way to keep things balanced?

That might actually make certain bad archetypes workable.

BrianDavion wrote:
weren't eldar disgustingly broken back in 2nd edition?

Not as disgusting as is made out. Some people have very selective memories. there was no worldwide meta to draw optimised lists from, or even advice. People built what they liked and what their friends used. The eldar might have been easier to build a winning list with, but they were still T3 units with armour of 4+ and 5+ in a game where almost every weapon had a save modifier on it.

I'm not sure what the balance of an army has to do with a discussion on 'watering down uniqueness' though. You can have a great deal of uniqueness and suck, or be balanced, or be broken. But the point of comment was the idea that the marines are 'losing uniqueness' as ironic given their track record.

You can do a comparison of what units marines have received since 2nd and eldar have received since 2nd ed to see - I wouldn't be surprised if the modern marine army list is more than twice the size of the 2nd ed BA, SW, DA, or Ultra army lists. Of those codices, BA, DA and Ultras were almost identical.

Without words.

Dakkadakka player: You painted your marines to be Dark Angel Green so you can only play Dark Angels.

Player: So Dark Angels codex should be updated to be in line with the new codices?

Dakkadakka player: Noooooo, you can just play your Dark Angels as Ultramarines.

I wanted to point out a good example of how the game might look without marines getting disproportionate support and limelight from GW.

Warhammer fantasy didn't have a poster boy faction that was shoved down our throats and shoehorned into every starter boxset. And I and I know others remember no faction really being overrepresented at stores. I'm sure there must have been one that statistically sold the most but it wouldn't be by that much and it wasn't very apparent in the meta or by how much attention the faction got in releases.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think space marines have three major factors contributing to their popularity and sales. The first and major factor is probably them being in every starter box since the beginning. These are notoriously the best deals for models being nearly 50% off. It's how most people are introduced to the game and these models have to go somewhere. The marines are almost always stacked lopsidedly against the opposition, and in general have always been a solid faction in each edition.

Second factor is the idea or fact that marines get the most support and new stuff. It's a safe bet for someone wanting to invest in this hobby.
Third would jut be the fact they are the poster boys and focus of almost all stories and novels.

Tetsu0 wrote:
I wanted to point out a good example of how the game might look without marines getting disproportionate support and limelight from GW.

Warhammer fantasy didn't have a poster boy faction that was shoved down our throats and shoehorned into every starter boxset. And I and I know others remember no faction really being overrepresented at stores. I'm sure there must have been one that statistically sold the most but it wouldn't be by that much and it wasn't very apparent in the meta or by how much attention the faction got in releases.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think space marines have three major factors contributing to their popularity and sales. The first and major factor is probably them being in every starter box since the beginning. These are notoriously the best deals for models being nearly 50% off. It's how most people are introduced to the game and these models have to go somewhere. The marines are almost always stacked lopsidedly against the opposition, and in general have always been a solid faction in each edition.


Second factor is the idea or fact that marines get the most support and new stuff. It's a safe bet for someone wanting to invest in this hobby.
Third would jut be the fact they are the poster boys and focus of almost all stories and novels.

I disagree that it is a good example, correlation does not imply causation.

Your argument boils down to "Marines are popular because they get all the new stuff/attention, and they therefore get more new stuff/attention because they are popular".....yup can't argue with that, but I would like a bit more balance.