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Lots of people are complaining about the IH being so strong, some even spoke about not playing against them anymore. So I was curious to know of your victories against them, in order to prove they can be beaten / to reassure moral of the troops !
So guys, have you faces the new IH ? Did you beat them ? Let us the world know !

Yet to beat them, I can safely tell you to avoid melee, play the objective game and hope to the dark gods that you aren't playing ITC.

Avoid Melee? why Am I forgetting something that makes then overly strong in Melee?

BrianDavion wrote:
Avoid Melee? why Am I forgetting something that makes then overly strong in Melee?

5+ overwatch with all those guns are bloody murder, and /getting into/ melee is a whole different trouble. They'll mow you down before you can get in. It's not what they can do to you in melee, its the inability to get into them in melee.

Lost two matches to them, and I play Custodes. Objectively however, my game play is somewhat, trash.

I only beat them once, and that was to a player who I outrolled like crazy, and he didn't have a clue what he was doing.

They are a very well built codex. Saw a guy using the codex with an Astraeus, which seemed positively unfair. A superheavy that can regain 25% of it's wounds per turn, with a 5++ and a 6 +++?

 vaklor4 wrote:
Yet to beat them, I can safely tell you to avoid melee, play the objective game and hope to the dark gods that you aren't playing ITC.

If "play the objective game" is the general advice against an army, it's a clear sign that the army is broken. And also that you need to think harder about your tactics and lists, because this won't be enough in the long run if you have a regular Iron Hands opponent.

Playing the objective game is a crutch you use in tournaments, when faced with a rock-paper-scissors situation where your specific army list is the paper to the scissors. But in general, any properly tailored army should be able to beat an army from any other faction in a straight "brawl".

 vaklor4 wrote:
5+ overwatch with all those guns are bloody murder, and /getting into/ melee is a whole different trouble. They'll mow you down before you can get in. It's not what they can do to you in melee, its the inability to get into them in melee.

What would you rather face -- their 5+ overwatch, or their next 3+ shooting phase? If it's their guns you're afraid of, all the more reason to get into melee. Better take a slap now than a punch later. Anyway, there are many ways to avoid or reduce overwatch, including multiple-on-one charges, charging from outside line of sight, consolidation and heroic intervention.

In my previous game against IH, I sent some Drukhari forces (mostly characters) into melee and had some success against a couple of Primaris units, but my opponent moved his Leviathan Dreadnought into melee and I knew I was not going to win this one. So obviously all advice on "should I melee?" is situational.

.

 vaklor4 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Avoid Melee? why Am I forgetting something that makes then overly strong in Melee?

5+ overwatch with all those guns are bloody murder, and /getting into/ melee is a whole different trouble. They'll mow you down before you can get in. It's not what they can do to you in melee, its the inability to get into them in melee.

Hardly.
I've played two ITC practice games with my Iron Hands, both times going at it with strong opponents to test my list, tactics, and the codex. I lost them both. Neither games were a cakewalk for either play, but both times I was shut down to one extent or another by melee.

As it turns out, 5+ overwatch only gets you so far, and that also assumes that your most powerful guns actually get to *fire* overwatch.

You know what's really deadly? Having your screens get charged by a big, blobby unit that has enough room to get nice and close to all your other guns. Or having a unit with rerolls and bonuses to their charge come out from behind a wall so that you can't fire overwatch. Or having your biggest gun charged by a "You can't overwatch me" unit of one flavor or another and then being charged by everything else once your overwatch is soaked up.
Also, getting charged by an imperial knight or similarly beefy unit who can actually take your overwatch can hurt too.

Don't let the psychological aspect scare you. Getting into melee with Iron Hands is absolutely the way to go, and getting a somewhat better overwatch isn't the same as being able to just vaporize anything that tries to charge you, especially if you know how to maneuver well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Lost two matches to them, and I play Custodes. Objectively however, my game play is somewhat, trash.

I only beat them once, and that was to a player who I outrolled like crazy, and he didn't have a clue what he was doing.

They are a very well built codex. Saw a guy using the codex with an Astraeus, which seemed positively unfair. A superheavy that can regain 25% of it's wounds per turn, with a 5++ and a 6 +++?

To be fair, Iron Hands are a really bad matchup for Custodes. (Space Marines in general are, but especially Iron Hands.) Our doctrine and abilities favor heavy weapons with -1 and -2 AP, which also generally means 2-3 damage weapons that'll have their AP buffed. This puts the vast, vast majority of our firepower into a sweet spot that obliterates Custodes, because we've got just enough damage and AP to kill you without going overboard and either wasting AP on your invulns or putting too much damage into every model. It's one of the worst armies I can think of for Custodes to face, even outside of external balance issues and the strength of the codex.

I don't see the big deal about the Astreus though. It's going to be more than a third of that player's army, and while it's durable regardless of faction, Iron Hands don't have nearly as much to offer it as they do to Leviathans/other dreadnoughts.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Avoid Melee? why Am I forgetting something that makes then overly strong in Melee?

5+ overwatch with all those guns are bloody murder, and /getting into/ melee is a whole different trouble. They'll mow you down before you can get in. It's not what they can do to you in melee, its the inability to get into them in melee.

Hardly.
I've played two ITC practice games with my Iron Hands, both times going at it with strong opponents to test my list, tactics, and the codex. I lost them both. Neither games were a cakewalk for either play, but both times I was shut down to one extent or another by melee.

As it turns out, 5+ overwatch only gets you so far, and that also assumes that your most powerful guns actually get to *fire* overwatch.

You know what's really deadly? Having your screens get charged by a big, blobby unit that has enough room to get nice and close to all your other guns. Or having a unit with rerolls and bonuses to their charge come out from behind a wall so that you can't fire overwatch. Or having your biggest gun charged by a "You can't overwatch me" unit of one flavor or another and then being charged by everything else once your overwatch is soaked up.
Also, getting charged by an imperial knight or similarly beefy unit who can actually take your overwatch can hurt too.

Don't let the psychological aspect scare you. Getting into melee with Iron Hands is absolutely the way to go, and getting a somewhat better overwatch isn't the same as being able to just vaporize anything that tries to charge you, especially if you know how to maneuver well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Lost two matches to them, and I play Custodes. Objectively however, my game play is somewhat, trash.

I only beat them once, and that was to a player who I outrolled like crazy, and he didn't have a clue what he was doing.

They are a very well built codex. Saw a guy using the codex with an Astraeus, which seemed positively unfair. A superheavy that can regain 25% of it's wounds per turn, with a 5++ and a 6 +++?

To be fair, Iron Hands are a really bad matchup for Custodes. (Space Marines in general are, but especially Iron Hands.) Our doctrine and abilities favor heavy weapons with -1 and -2 AP, which also generally means 2-3 damage weapons that'll have their AP buffed. This puts the vast, vast majority of our firepower into a sweet spot that obliterates Custodes, because we've got just enough damage and AP to kill you without going overboard and either wasting AP on your invulns or putting too much damage into every model. It's one of the worst armies I can think of for Custodes to face, even outside of external balance issues and the strength of the codex.

I don't see the big deal about the Astreus though. It's going to be more than a third of that player's army, and while it's durable regardless of faction, Iron Hands don't have nearly as much to offer it as they do to Leviathans/other dreadnoughts.

Got it! Armies with decent melee units, check! Now since you seem to know the answer to everything, what does tau do?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Got it! Armies with decent melee units, check! Now since you seem to know the answer to everything, what does tau do?

... What?
I literally don't understand you're point. I never came remotely close to saying that you needed melee to win. I just shared two stories about games where I lost to melee, and posted a rebuttal to someone saying that melee wouldn't work.

I haven't played against Tau with my Iron Hands yet. If you want an answer to your question, you'll need to ask someone who has.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Got it! Armies with decent melee units, check! Now since you seem to know the answer to everything, what does tau do?

... What?
I literally don't understand you're point. I never came remotely close to saying that you needed melee to win. I just shared two stories about games where I lost to melee, and posted a rebuttal to someone saying that melee wouldn't work.

I haven't played against Tau with my Iron Hands yet. If you want an answer to your question, you'll need to ask someone who has.

People are staking their reputation on the death of 40k with the arrival of IH (and now IF).

One thing I do find interesting...the FAQ is way late.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Got it! Armies with decent melee units, check! Now since you seem to know the answer to everything, what does tau do?

... What?
I literally don't understand you're point. I never came remotely close to saying that you needed melee to win. I just shared two stories about games where I lost to melee, and posted a rebuttal to someone saying that melee wouldn't work.

I haven't played against Tau with my Iron Hands yet. If you want an answer to your question, you'll need to ask someone who has.

People are staking their reputation on the death of 40k with the arrival of IH (and now IF).

One thing I do find interesting...the FAQ is way late.

He stated melee is actually an option to take care of iron hands. I simply asked what an army with no melee should do. I do not mean to be rude or anything but... imperial fists are not iron hands level. Nor are ultramarines or raven guard. They have some good strong useful traits, but the iron hands resiliency needs to be addressed.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

but the iron hands resiliency needs to be addressed.

That's part of my curiosity for the FAQ delay. I'm hoping they at least realized they goofed on some of the combos.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

but the iron hands resiliency needs to be addressed.

That's part of my curiosity for the FAQ delay. I'm hoping they at least realized they goofed on some of the combos.

Character dreads should be stuck at only 1 allowed per army is in itself a massive fix to this.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

but the iron hands resiliency needs to be addressed.

That's part of my curiosity for the FAQ delay. I'm hoping they at least realized they goofed on some of the combos.

This is comedy gold!

Cannot be done. If your opponent selects Iron Hands and you do not, it is now impossible for you to win. You have simply no options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Guardsman- wrote:

If "play the objective game" is the general advice against an army, it's a clear sign that the army is broken.

Or that the army you are playing against revolves around anchoring around a single guy with a 6" aura and a 3" buff range. who knows

Pancakey wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

but the iron hands resiliency needs to be addressed.

That's part of my curiosity for the FAQ delay. I'm hoping they at least realized they goofed on some of the combos.

This is comedy gold!

If you say so.

BrianDavion wrote:
Avoid Melee? why Am I forgetting something that makes then overly strong in Melee?

5+ overwatch (4+ with a strat), -2 to charge, usually on top of a ruin or building, and vecting your no-overwatch spells, etc.. with a single CP.

You'll just never get there. And if you, in theory, one of your guys made it through blistering overwatch to tag an IH tank on top of a ruin, they are still -1 damage, will repair any damage you get through and simply fly away to blast you off the board.




Math it out with some GSC or Genestealers or Slaanesh/Khorne Daemons or Harlequins or whatever you have. It's not gonna go well.

man if 5+s to hit where a huuge deal you'd think we'd be hearing more complaints about OP Ork gunnery.

BrianDavion wrote:
man if 5+s to hit where a huuge deal you'd think we'd be hearing more complaints about OP Ork gunnery.

Imagine Ork shooting that also fired in your turn.

And your misdirection is obvious.

Simply put IH sure up all/too many of the 'weaknesses' of Marines - their durability is a joke, their damage output is a joke, they have tricks and shenanigans in spades and they require virtually no skill to play. A literal point and click army. It's very, very poor design on GWs part.

Oh and allegedly Salamanders might be even more OP. Can't wait for that bull gak to get released.

BrianDavion wrote:
man if 5+s to hit where a huuge deal you'd think we'd be hearing more complaints about OP Ork gunnery.

You must not have read any thread about orks in the last year...
Newest one in - stompa shooting is OP.

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
man if 5+s to hit where a huuge deal you'd think we'd be hearing more complaints about OP Ork gunnery.

You must not have read any thread about orks in the last year...
Newest one in - stompa shooting is OP.

Are we now reaching ultra dense territory then?

Also whilest overwatch 5+ is good, alone it is more or less useless, E.g. Scourged. It mostly punishes army that need to relly on melee to kill tough units.

'Tagging' IH is the best anyone's come up with yet? Jeez.

Executioners are the problem here, and even getting through the -2" charge 4+ overwatch rerolling all misses, the git just floats away next turn and heals 6+1d3 wounds. Thunderfire clear your campers and key positioning units.

I've played them twice with Alaitoc, to no avail. Worth pointing out that SM shooting is now super accurate too: even your one -3 alaitoc flyer is being hit 4+, rerolling all misses.

 grouchoben wrote:
'Tagging' IH is the best anyone's come up with yet? Jeez.

Executioners are the problem here, and even getting through the -2" charge 4+ overwatch rerolling all misses, the git just floats away next turn and heals 6+1d3 wounds. Thunderfire clear your campers and key positioning units.

I've played them twice with Alaitoc, to no avail. Worth pointing out that SM shooting is now super accurate too: even your one -3 alaitoc flyer is being hit 4+, rerolling all misses.

My csm don't work.
My r&h Otoh do, mostly because i throw 150 morale immune models in the deathblob.
Altough even that does not really work.

 grouchoben wrote:
'Tagging' IH is the best anyone's come up with yet? Jeez.

Executioners are the problem here, and even getting through the -2" charge 4+ overwatch rerolling all misses, the git just floats away next turn and heals 6+1d3 wounds. Thunderfire clear your campers and key positioning units.

I've played them twice with Alaitoc, to no avail. Worth pointing out that SM shooting is now super accurate too: even your one -3 alaitoc flyer is being hit 4+, rerolling all misses.

SM is the new counter to Alaitoc, and top players are saying that's one of the best things about the new dex, that Alaitoc has a proper trouble match up in the meta now. Not saying you are wrong in general, just pointing out that the Alaitoc match, you are right is gonna be a bitch for you, but is not reflective of SM or Iron Hands capability as a whole. I think the rest of us have a much better chance.

You are right that Executioners are the threat though, I genuinely aren't worried about Leviathans. Still forcing them to fall back out of the bubble may be all it takes, though they will definitely get their mileage out of them points wise, it has to come at the cost of board control theres no way to avoid that. I run 120 or so models in MSU, I'm gonna lose on kill more every turn, but I'm also gonna hold that board I'm confident in it.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
SM is the new counter to Alaitoc, and top players are saying that's one of the best things about the new dex, that Alaitoc has a proper trouble match up in the meta now. Not saying you are wrong in general, just pointing out that the Alaitoc match, you are right is gonna be a bitch for you, but is not reflective of SM or Iron Hands capability as a whole. I think the rest of us have a much better chance.

Not sure why you believe any other army has a better chance.

The only 'chance' that any army has against IH is to literally flood the board with so many bodies that they can't wipe you quick enough and take objectives. If your army is unable to do this, you're SOL (unless you're one of the other nu-marine lists that can simply out-damage them).

Iron Hands' capability as a whole is incredibly strong, the fact that they can absolutely wipe the floor with what is another strong list in Alaitoc just shows how insanely powerful they are, not the opposite.

As far as I can tell from the (admittedly limited) stats, from the commentary of the playtesters and from limited experience, there is no real fun answer to Iron Hands. That is a/the problem.

The only 'chance' that any army has against IH is to literally flood the board with so many bodies that they can't wipe you quick enough and take objectives. If your army is unable to do this, you're SOL (unless you're one of the other nu-marine lists that can simply out-damage them).

Slight correction, enough bodies to get the meatgrinder bubble stuck AND maintain objectives.

F.e. I won only with my renegades because i had another 100 bodies sitting around and got incredibly luck to get t4 on the mutant blobs and he had no Snipers to remove my enforcers.

With regular CSM that would be night impossible, because you can't secure enough squads morale wise and have cheap enough units.

Not Online!!! wrote:

The only 'chance' that any army has against IH is to literally flood the board with so many bodies that they can't wipe you quick enough and take objectives. If your army is unable to do this, you're SOL (unless you're one of the other nu-marine lists that can simply out-damage them).

Slight correction, enough bodies to get the meatgrinder bubble stuck AND maintain objectives.

F.e. I won only with my renegades because i had another 100 bodies sitting around and got incredibly luck to get t4 on the mutant blobs and he had no Snipers to remove my enforcers.

With regular CSM that would be night impossible, because you can't secure enough squads morale wise and have cheap enough units.

You're not wrong, I just couldn't be bothered to post the entire tactic It's pretty self explanatory I guess - try not to die while holding objectives, somehow mitigate morale when snipers don't even need LOS to kill characters that provide morale mitigating buffs, good luck!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The only 'chance' that any army has against IH is to literally flood the board with so many bodies that they can't wipe you quick enough and take objectives. If your army is unable to do this, you're SOL (unless you're one of the other nu-marine lists that can simply out-damage them).

Slight correction, enough bodies to get the meatgrinder bubble stuck AND maintain objectives.

F.e. I won only with my renegades because i had another 100 bodies sitting around and got incredibly luck to get t4 on the mutant blobs and he had no Snipers to remove my enforcers.

With regular CSM that would be night impossible, because you can't secure enough squads morale wise and have cheap enough units.

You're not wrong, I just couldn't be bothered to post the entire tactic It's pretty self explanatory I guess - try not to die while holding objectives, somehow mitigate morale when snipers don't even need LOS to kill characters that provide morale mitigating buffs, good luck!

MY win was probably precicslcly because the mate i played against didn't field a squad of them.
And whilest it is kinda funny for the first time to clogg up the meatgrinder that is the IH deathbubble with chaff, i find it disgusting that i need over 100+ models just to succesfully tarpit it.

Not Online!!! 781287 10596838 wrote:
Are we now reaching ultra dense territory then?

Also whilest overwatch 5+ is good, alone it is more or less useless, E.g. Scourged. It mostly punishes army that need to relly on melee to kill tough units.

True. They kill everything GK dead. multi wound causing weapons hurt NDK and termmintor armoured stuff a lot. ton of multi shot weapons melt power armored units. Lots of buffs to doing damage deals with stuff like Land Raiders or dreadnoughts, while their own dreads are untargetable. Very unfun to play, when something finaly reachs melee and gets blasted 20 times on +5, followed by Thunader hammer lords cheaing with 6" move after charge.

Didn't Goonhammer math it out, and even a Warlord Titan firing all it's guns at a IH Relic Leviathan, has a 13% chance of failing to kill it, and even a Smash Captain needs 64 attacks?