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Waaaghpower wrote:

Don't let the psychological aspect scare you. Getting into melee with Iron Hands is absolutely the way to go, and getting a somewhat better overwatch isn't the same as being able to just vaporize anything that tries to charge you, especially if you know how to maneuver well.

.

Fun when you are playing faction that sucks in melee(primaris marines with knife kicks ass with you) and is outshot by ih as well.

Speaking to one of the play testers today about the IH issues. While he's bound by contract not to disclose specifics of things. He did say there was a MASSIVE error in communication in regards to the IH book. Which is part of why the FAQ is late.

I'd expect some major changes once it drops.

 chimeara wrote:
Speaking to one of the play testers today about the IH issues. While he's bound by contract not to disclose specifics of things. He did say there was a MASSIVE error in communication in regards to the IH book. Which is part of why the FAQ is late.

I'd expect some major changes once it drops.

Wont hold my breath. They will probably get more buffs lol

 chimeara wrote:
Speaking to one of the play testers today about the IH issues. While he's bound by contract not to disclose specifics of things. He did say there was a MASSIVE error in communication in regards to the IH book. Which is part of why the FAQ is late.

Interesting. I wonder what the miscommunication could have been about.

 Crimson wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Speaking to one of the play testers today about the IH issues. While he's bound by contract not to disclose specifics of things. He did say there was a MASSIVE error in communication in regards to the IH book. Which is part of why the FAQ is late.

Interesting. I wonder what the miscommunication could have been about.

That's what I was trying to get him to say lol. But, he cannot.

"There is a problem with the durability of the Iron Hands."

"Got it! We'll fix it!"
*Adds durability buffs*

The issue is rules on rules on rules. Just in case people have not encountered it or seen it,

IH get:
6+++ FNP.
Overwatch on 5+
Double wounds for determining if something is degraded or not.

In Devastator Doctrine they get the regular +1 AP for heavy weapons.
They also get to ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
They also reroll 1s to hit because screw you thats why.

The Iron Father then gives a 5++ 6" aura.
And makes a unit BS 2+
And can repair 3 wounds a turn (1 CP to do it twice).

The Ironstone relic reduces all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1.

They also have a stratagem which allows you to halve all damage on a dreadnought (see: Leviathans). At which point, in combination with the Ironstone, you have to do 5 damage per attack to inflict more than 1 damage, and you have to get through 14 wounds T8, 4++, 6+++ saves to kill it. In other words its mathematically near impossible to kill one in a turn, its only degraded at 3 wounds but as said you can just throw wounds back on it so doing so it will never be degraded.

Which is nice for the IH player, as it can happily blast you with 20 S7 AP-3 D2 guns at BS2 while jogging 8" around the table. Also heavy flamers, which tbh are as lame as any heavy flamers, but AP-2 is a nice touch if they ever come up.

Then you make the dread a character and you can boost them even more.

Its just crazy. Off the chain crazy.

Is it beatable? Sure. Its a dice game. Play the mission and hope your opponent fluffs their dice rolls. But people saying anyone worried about this are "cry babies" are not playing the game. Its obscene.

 chimeara wrote:
Speaking to one of the play testers today about the IH issues. While he's bound by contract not to disclose specifics of things. He did say there was a MASSIVE error in communication in regards to the IH book. Which is part of why the FAQ is late.

I'd expect some major changes once it drops.

Crossing my fingers.

I'm still wistful for the complaint threads on how awful the Executioner was going to be after the points bump.

Tyel wrote:
The issue is rules on rules on rules. Just in case people have not encountered it or seen it,

IH get:
6+++ FNP.
Overwatch on 5+
Double wounds for determining if something is degraded or not.

In Devastator Doctrine they get the regular +1 AP for heavy weapons.
They also get to ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
They also reroll 1s to hit because screw you thats why.

The Iron Father then gives a 5++ 6" aura.
And makes a unit BS 2+
And can repair 3 wounds a turn (1 CP to do it twice).

The Ironstone relic reduces all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1.

They also have a stratagem which allows you to halve all damage on a dreadnought (see: Leviathans). At which point, in combination with the Ironstone, you have to do 5 damage per attack to inflict more than 1 damage, and you have to get through 14 wounds T8, 4++, 6+++ saves to kill it. In other words its mathematically near impossible to kill one in a turn, its only degraded at 3 wounds but as said you can just throw wounds back on it so doing so it will never be degraded.

Which is nice for the IH player, as it can happily blast you with 20 S7 AP-3 D2 guns at BS2 while jogging 8" around the table. Also heavy flamers, which tbh are as lame as any heavy flamers, but AP-2 is a nice touch if they ever come up.

Then you make the dread a character and you can boost them even more.

Its just crazy. Off the chain crazy.

Is it beatable? Sure. Its a dice game. Play the mission and hope your opponent fluffs their dice rolls. But people saying anyone worried about this are "cry babies" are not playing the game. Its obscene.

Don't forget they can also vect any psychic power for 1 CP, further taking away a big tool from many armies. Trying to Doom something? Trying to Mass Hypnosis a Repulsor to get a cc unit in? Trying to Treason of Tzeentch or so? Nope. Not gonna happen.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Don't forget they can also vect any psychic power for 1 CP, further taking away a big tool from many armies. Trying to Doom something? Trying to Mass Hypnosis a Repulsor to get a cc unit in? Trying to Treason of Tzeentch or so? Nope. Not gonna happen.

Is it 1 CP, guaranteed Deny? Or 1 CP, 4+ to Deny?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Don't forget they can also vect any psychic power for 1 CP, further taking away a big tool from many armies. Trying to Doom something? Trying to Mass Hypnosis a Repulsor to get a cc unit in? Trying to Treason of Tzeentch or so? Nope. Not gonna happen.

Is it 1 CP, guaranteed Deny? Or 1 CP, 4+ to Deny?

The latter, but people also like to pretend they have cp to do all the things mentioned above all the time.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Don't forget they can also vect any psychic power for 1 CP, further taking away a big tool from many armies. Trying to Doom something? Trying to Mass Hypnosis a Repulsor to get a cc unit in? Trying to Treason of Tzeentch or so? Nope. Not gonna happen.

Is it 1 CP, guaranteed Deny? Or 1 CP, 4+ to Deny?

The latter, but people also like to pretend they have cp to do all the things mentioned above all the time.

I'd also assume it's got a range and is not just "1 CP, 4+ to Deny a power cast anywhere on the board, even out of LoS".

Yea - any IH unit though.

 chimeara wrote:
Speaking to one of the play testers today about the IH issues. While he's bound by contract not to disclose specifics of things. He did say there was a MASSIVE error in communication in regards to the IH book. Which is part of why the FAQ is late.

I'd expect some major changes once it drops.

I fins this hard to believe to be honest. The playtesters have been waxing lyrical about how strong marines are going to be for ages. The word from the playtesters seems to indicate that Salamanders are even stronger than IH too.

The IH mess should not have got through even initial testing. It's clearly broken

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
SM is the new counter to Alaitoc, and top players are saying that's one of the best things about the new dex, that Alaitoc has a proper trouble match up in the meta now. Not saying you are wrong in general, just pointing out that the Alaitoc match, you are right is gonna be a bitch for you, but is not reflective of SM or Iron Hands capability as a whole. I think the rest of us have a much better chance.

Not sure why you believe any other army has a better chance.

Because other armies have varying levels of ability to hold the board, or melee, or abuse terrain, or basically anything other than try to math off against the new gods of math. Trying to outshoot them is a losing battle. No matter how you feel about Iron Hands you have to be able to recognise that Alaitoc have a pretty bad match up here.

If the IH get nerfed expect fun and games anytime somthing meta changing comes along with massive knee jerking being stocked by tournament players to get counters to their favoured cheese nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Didn't Goonhammer math it out, and even a Warlord Titan firing all it's guns at a IH Relic Leviathan, has a 13% chance of failing to kill it, and even a Smash Captain needs 64 attacks?

A warlord titan struggles to kill most stuff there gak and knowing the goons they all play elder flyer spam and as such have an interest in removing the hard counter to it.

*sighs* Karol Karol Karol..

"they can beat grey knights" isn't anything special. gien the power level of grey knighs right now, if an army CAN'T curb stomp grey knights it's a problem

SeanDrake wrote:
If the IH get nerfed expect fun and games anytime somthing meta changing comes along with massive knee jerking being stocked by tournament players to get counters to their favoured cheese nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Didn't Goonhammer math it out, and even a Warlord Titan firing all it's guns at a IH Relic Leviathan, has a 13% chance of failing to kill it, and even a Smash Captain needs 64 attacks?

A warlord titan struggles to kill most stuff there gak and knowing the goons they all play elder flyer spam and as such have an interest in removing the hard counter to it.

Yeah a Warlord Titan isn't exactly the pinnacle of offensive capability due to the rules Blasts went through.

BrianDavion wrote:
*sighs* Karol Karol Karol..

"they can beat grey knights" isn't anything special. gien the power level of grey knighs right now, if an army CAN'T curb stomp grey knights it's a problem

Well I don't have expiriance playing any other army. Only playing against IH three times. Plus people here keep telling me GK are okey to play, I just do it wrong.

Those individuals are usually the same ones which telly you that their army is fine when its absolutely dominating games

I tend to drown the Objective in troops, Aim for there weaker units, then focus down one dreadnought a turn. It usually is a close game but having them in a close bubble slowly moving up the board allows me to have better board control or kill whatever leaves the huddle.

tneva82 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Don't let the psychological aspect scare you. Getting into melee with Iron Hands is absolutely the way to go, and getting a somewhat better overwatch isn't the same as being able to just vaporize anything that tries to charge you, especially if you know how to maneuver well.

.

Fun when you are playing faction that sucks in melee(primaris marines with knife kicks ass with you) and is outshot by ih as well.

Why have I had two seperate people reply to my post, about how melee can be effective, to complain about how they don't have melee and imply that they therefore must not stand a chance?

The funny thing, Tau absolutely can and should be denying any Leviathans shooting by charging with drones and other green-carriers. It’s how Tau won NOVA this year. And if we’re talking about Repulsors falling back after being charged, that’s the same for everyone trying to melee them, that’s not a failing of your shooting army.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Didn't Goonhammer math it out, and even a Warlord Titan firing all it's guns at a IH Relic Leviathan, has a 13% chance of failing to kill it, and even a Smash Captain needs 64 attacks?

The article was wrong and didn't use the standard mathhammer to see what it takes on average to kill a unit, instead, they used another method to inflate the numbers and make it look scarier than it is, not to mention they got the rules for the Dreadnought Stratagem wrong. They said the Dread Strat halved rounding down, when it halves rounding up.

Shouldn't the halving take place after the -1 anyways? So 4 damage, becomes 3 becomes 2? Since it's your turn you get to apply the sequence of effects right? Since it's modifying inflicted damage rather than the damage characteristic I'm not sure.

Weapon damage is a characteristic, and for characteristics multiplication/division comes before addition/subtraction.

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that
model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier
(e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers
are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current
Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers
to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply
any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the weapon’s
Strength characteristic.

 p5freak wrote:
Weapon damage is a characteristic, and for characteristics multiplication/division comes before addition/subtraction.

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that
model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier
(e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers
are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current
Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers
to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply
any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the weapon’s
Strength characteristic.

When resolving an attack made against an IRON HANDS VEHICLE unit within 3" of a friendly model with this Relic, reduce any damage inflicted by 1, to a minimum of 1.

Use this Stratagem when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES DREADNOUGHT model from your army is chosen as the target for an attack. Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made against that model, halve the damage inflicted (rounding up).

Damage characteristic? Highlight where you think it says the damage characteristic is modified.

Ok, i now see your point. I was wrong, damage is not a characteristic. Its just damage. You may be right that sequencing is used when it comes to calculating how many wounds are lost. And 4 damage would be 2. This could be worth a thread in YMDC.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea - any IH unit though.

Where is this screenshot from? can you provide a link?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Got it! Armies with decent melee units, check! Now since you seem to know the answer to everything, what does tau do?

Tie them up in combat, lead in with a big durable unit like a 3++ riptide and then follow up with shield drones.

If they are running the unkillable deathball then kill the rest of the army, play objectives and see if your sniper drones can whittle down the key characters to unravel the deathball.

DO NOT castle up and try to outshoot them. I think by now that Tau players should realise that castling up consigns them to being little more than a gatekeeper list, if they want to play on the top tables they need to be highly mobile and aggressive.

Honestly it always depends on what the IH player actually has and how they are playing it - and what the Tau player has and how they play. Discussing this in the vacuum of not having specific lists/missions etc always ends up being a fruitless exercise in what-ifs.. A Mech-Tau list would tackle Iron hands completely differently to Triptide and massed Sniper Drones would be different again.

Perhaps haywire cannon spam with skyweavers could work nicely against iron hands?
I put together a quick list of three squads of five skyweavers with haywire, a shadow seer with an ulthwe battalion of three min dire avengers, a farseer and warlock skyrunner plus four wave serpents with star cannons and CTM for 1750.