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In this thread whenever I talk about Space Marines or Chapters I am going by the definition on page 174 of the new codex - no freak chapters (BA, DA, DW, GK, LotD, SW).

So, it turns out that I got confused by the awkward wording in the supplements. I originally thought that only 'Inheritors of the Primarch' sucessor chapters got the supplement goodies, which made far more sense to me. Now I realise that this is not correct, but I am left completely baffled about how tactical objectives are supposed to work. I am going to need to reference a few different paragraphs here, using the Ultramarines supplement for the sake of example.

Reference 1:

Ultramarines Supplement page 72 wrote:[if you aren't one of the main chapters] then your Chapter is a successor Chapter, and you should decide which of the aforementioned First Founding chapters it is a sucessor of.

The rules for doing this are then given, but basically you are compelled to declare one of the six options as your parent chapter one way or another. Since I am looking at the Ultramarines book we will assume an Ultramarine sucessor chapter, resulting in:

Reference 2:

Ultramarines Supplement page 72 wrote:Units from Ultramarines sucessor Chapters are considered to have the ULTRAMARINES keyword for the purpose of using Ultramarines Tactical Objectives

Then in the Tactical Objectives section:

Reference 3:

Ultramarines Supplement page 79 wrote:If your army is led by an ULTRAMARINES Warlord, these Tactical objectives replace the Capture and Control Tactical Objectives...

So... based on reference 2, does this mean that a NOVAMARINES warlord counts as an ULTRAMARINES warlord, and you are therefore compelled to use the Ultramarine tactical objectives? If so, then remember that Reference 1 forces you to choose one of the First Founding chapters no matter what - this would mean that ANY Space Marines army would be forced to use objectives from one of the supplements and no one would ever be able to use the tactical objectives from Codex: Space Marines. Then again, that page says 'If your army is led by a Space Marines Warlord, these Tactical objectives replace the Capture and Control Tactical Objectives...' - since an Ultramarine is both an Ultramarine and a Space Marine, what happens? Do I get to pick? Does specific trump general?

None of this is a problem with warlord traits, relics and the like since they are all optional, but the wording for tactical objectives suggests that you have no choice but to use them.

The only other interpretation I can see is if reference 2 only allows you to replace the text of the objectives themselves (e.g. "Score 1 Victory Point if at least three NOVAMARINES....") and not the part about the warlord. This would mean that only the First Founding chapters get access to their special tactical objectives. However, this makes reference 2 redundant except in obscure cases like where someone has both an Ultramarines warlord and a Novamarines unit in the same army.

So which is it? All Space Marines are forced to use tactical objectives from a supplement ? Successor chapters can never use tactical objectives from a supplement unless accompanied by a first founding warlord? You can pick which objectives to use even though it doesn't say you can? Or something else?

Let's not even think about how any of this mess might apply to the Crimson Fists or Black Templars...

I would say that is correct. If your warlord is drawn from an Ultamarines successor chapter, you must use the Ultramarines tactical objectives. Faction Tactical Objectives have always had the mandatory wording.

FWIW, this doesn't matter so much with the updated Maelstrom rules from White Dwarf (which I highly recommend you use).

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I would say that is correct. If your warlord is drawn from an Ultamarines successor chapter, you must use the Ultramarines tactical objectives. Faction Tactical Objectives have always had the mandatory wording.

And so, by extension, any Space Marine army is compelled to use tactical objectives from a supplement and no one can use the ones from the codex?

 Bilge Rat wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I would say that is correct. If your warlord is drawn from an Ultamarines successor chapter, you must use the Ultramarines tactical objectives. Faction Tactical Objectives have always had the mandatory wording.

And so, by extension, any Space Marine army is compelled to use tactical objectives from a supplement and no one can use the ones from the codex?

Its dumb wording in the supplements because they do indeed say any space marine army MUST be a first founding or successor of a first founding.
The main SM codex itself does not demand a successor chapter be linked to a first founding.

So it's the usual case of GW not accounting for two or more "must" rules and no way to resolve it. The rules currently state if your Warlord is a Space Marines Warlord you must replace your tactical objectives with both the Codex and the Supplement rules.

Classic GW.

Just pick one and get on with your game. What you got there is a molehill, not a mountain.

Most tourneys use vanilla objectives anyway.

I don't have the ultramarines codex for page numbers

But in the white scars under the
"Successor chapters" heading

Their is a subheading "tactical objectives" and it couldn't be clearer

The wording in the White Scars supplement is identical to what I quoted above.