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Lets say I have a defiler and the claw is modeled up (right in line with the 2nd floor of a building and my opponent has a unit on the 2nd floor of a building (its a ruined building so there are no walls in the way of either model). By walking the defiler up, the bottom of the claw and the base of the enemy model actually touch. I would think this would be a legal charge because the entire profile of the defiler in return is a legitimate target (other than the spikes, guns and banner pole) (hull of vehicle replaces the base for determining legal contact?)

For a model with no base, you measure distance from the model's hull. Therefore you need to get the hull within 1" of the base of a model in the enemy unit.

This may be possible, but it will depend on what you define as hull. I think people generally would not include the claws. If you can get the body within 1", then you can get into melee though.

I wouldn't say a defilers claw is part of it's hull. I would say that it is a weapon...

But, on that note, if the hull is within 1" and the model does not have a base (or it has a rule that says specifically to measure from the hull) then yes, you can charge the infantry on the second floor.

Discuss with your opponent what counts as hull. I personally would call the claw a weapon, I personally would include legs and body only... unfortunately there are no official rules on "what is and isn't hull" but it is generally accepted things like antennas, weapons and sponsons are not hull. What is a hull, is the main body of the vehicle.

So this is an "talk with your opponent before the game" situation... I my self would say yes if the body was in range and no if it was just the claws, assuming you would have had that conversation with me.

Talk it out with your opponent pre-game. For a model like that I’d likely just say let’s count any part of it for measuring. Allows it to attack stuff, which seems right. Your mileage and your opponent’s may vary, and what you agree is all that matters tbh.

Yet another reason to add a size statistic to 40k... "any model of size 4 or more may attack units on the floor above".

or a blanket "models may attack other models which are the number of inches of their size stat above them, EG a size 2 model may attack a model 2" above them. A size 8 model may attack units 8" above them.

 some bloke wrote:
Yet another reason to add a size statistic to 40k... "any model of size 4 or more may attack units on the floor above".

or a blanket "models may attack other models which are the number of inches of their size stat above them, EG a size 2 model may attack a model 2" above them. A size 8 model may attack units 8" above them.

Yes, warmachine did this, and it made things sooooo easy in situations like this,,, also this nonsense about tall antennas allowing line of sight...

But the rules are the rules,,, for now XD

Erhm for peaple who say the claws / legs isnt part of the hull have you ever seen the model? if the "hull" is 2 inches of the ground so would be unable to charge / be charged

In previous editions weapons were not part of the hull in this edition the model = hull

I would say Yes a defiler can attack on the second floor as long as any part of the model is within 1"

Legs =hull, claws =weapon. Imo, but again, this is subjective.

I wonder how some one would feel if I modeled my land raider to have its lascannon pointed directly upwards and said "it attacks the second floor"

Weapons =/= hull according to me and almost everyone I have ever played with. Though legs, treads, and wheels seem reasonable... Basically, weapons are too easy to model to advantage.

It's not a model where "hull" is entirely relevant for mobility kills, resilience, or where it attacks from... a lot of those things are its extremities. In terms of rationalising this in-game, the rules just go "hell no, you figure it out". As the rules say agree with your opponent, do that each time before you play.

Oh I hadn't thought of the claws as weapons. I should have though.


It is still possible to get the claw arms (sans claws) to be within 1" of a enemy model on floor 2 in some cases.

Considering the size and length of the defiler claws....

The defiler could not fight period if they were not considered hull....

Just food for thought.

Except the model on high ground


So yes, talk it out.
Quite frankly when you are at it talk terrain rules out in general, cause gw completely forgot about them...

You'll have to define the "hull" with your opponent before the game, there is currently no definition for a model like a Defiler.

Personally, as a narrative gamer, I'd tell you to go for it because of TMIR.

Claws and feet count as hull, then they will start babysitting characters. Only body count as hull, then most defilers can't be in CC anymore...
GW really need to give a rule clarification on the defiler..

 Wibe wrote:


Claws and feet count as hull, then they will start babysitting characters. Only body count as hull, then most defilers can't be in CC anymore...
GW really need to give a rule clarification on the defiler..

or add a size category? Models with x" height can attack units on the first floor and or second floor, etc.
It ain't that difficult to determine the height of a standard defiler. (heck you could even use a shilouette and fix the value as standard to allow modelled ones to shine and not gather the stink exe for modelling for advantage)

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Wibe wrote:


Claws and feet count as hull, then they will start babysitting characters. Only body count as hull, then most defilers can't be in CC anymore...
GW really need to give a rule clarification on the defiler..

or add a size category? Models with x" height can attack units on the first floor and or second floor, etc.
It ain't that difficult to determine the height of a standard defiler. (heck you could even use a shilouette and fix the value as standard to allow modelled ones to shine and not gather the stink exe for modelling for advantage)

Yeah. Mortarion, knights, and similar units not being able to fight against units on the second floor is a terrible rule...

 Wibe wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Wibe wrote:


Claws and feet count as hull, then they will start babysitting characters. Only body count as hull, then most defilers can't be in CC anymore...
GW really need to give a rule clarification on the defiler..

or add a size category? Models with x" height can attack units on the first floor and or second floor, etc.
It ain't that difficult to determine the height of a standard defiler. (heck you could even use a shilouette and fix the value as standard to allow modelled ones to shine and not gather the stink exe for modelling for advantage)

Yeah. Mortarion, knights, and similar units not being able to fight against units on the second floor is a terrible rule...

Carnifex? Chaos Spawn aswell.

I mean i get why "normal bikers " would not attack second floor units in melee but are you really telling me that beasts and carnifexes and other such big, big and mean things are not supposed to curb them or treat enemies at that height as anything else then a conveniently placed snack?

Am I wrong on something. In order to have a close combat if your model has a base it has to be within 1" of a another model's hull or its base?

If that's right, then only a few models in the game could fight models on the second floor from the ground floor (AKA soulgrinder and defiler) because they did not come with a base.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Am I wrong on something. In order to have a close combat if your model has a base it has to be within 1" of a another model's hull or its base?

If that's right, then only a few models in the game could fight models on the second floor from the ground floor (AKA soulgrinder and defiler) because they did not come with a base.

Right. Due to lack of concrete set of rules that accompany terrain (particularly ruins), being elevated on the upper levels of ruins can potentially grant you immunity from charges and assaults, which some of us believe is a terrible game design.

 Wibe wrote:


Claws and feet count as hull, then they will start babysitting characters. Only body count as hull, then most defilers can't be in CC anymore...
GW really need to give a rule clarification on the defiler..

Looks taller than mine from that angle

RAW base 40k rules, My dude stands on a cardboard box an, your entire army can't hit me in melee. Reality, don't be a

Terrain is an important thing to converse with the people you meet as their are many ways to play it.

ThatMG wrote:
RAW base 40k rules, My dude stands on a cardboard box an, your entire army can't hit me in melee. Reality, don't be a

Terrain is an important thing to converse with the people you meet as their are many ways to play it.

My army can run over your dude with a deff rolla while his standing on the first floor of a building, because he is within 1" of the roof.

If you build the wagon like you see in my avatar, it can even reach up to the second floor.

 Jidmah wrote:

ThatMG wrote:
RAW base 40k rules, My dude stands on a cardboard box an, your entire army can't hit me in melee. Reality, don't be a

Terrain is an important thing to converse with the people you meet as their are many ways to play it.

My army can run over your dude with a deff rolla while his standing on the first floor of a building, because he is within 1" of the roof.

If you build the wagon like you see in my avatar, it can even reach up to the second floor.

Now I've got this image in my head of a Battlewagon with its Deffrolla hoisted up 15 meters into the air to ram a Warhound Titan in the face.

 Jidmah wrote:

ThatMG wrote:
RAW base 40k rules, My dude stands on a cardboard box an, your entire army can't hit me in melee. Reality, don't be a

Terrain is an important thing to converse with the people you meet as their are many ways to play it.

My army can run over your dude with a deff rolla while his standing on the first floor of a building, because he is within 1" of the roof.

If you build the wagon like you see in my avatar, it can even reach up to the second floor.

Exactly. A Defiler can't reach, but a Land Raider can.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

ThatMG wrote:
RAW base 40k rules, My dude stands on a cardboard box an, your entire army can't hit me in melee. Reality, don't be a

Terrain is an important thing to converse with the people you meet as their are many ways to play it.

My army can run over your dude with a deff rolla while his standing on the first floor of a building, because he is within 1" of the roof.

If you build the wagon like you see in my avatar, it can even reach up to the second floor.

Now I've got this image in my head of a Battlewagon with its Deffrolla hoisted up 15 meters into the air to ram a Warhound Titan in the face.

Actually, it was a bike.

I guess there was an angle I wasn't considering before. Is this bad sportsmanship?

In the past after I'd kill a model with the defiler, I'd ask my opponent if I could have the model in the claws for the remainder of the match. And in the past, one claw leg was max height and outstretched just so I could have that opportunity during the game.

So what I see here is that in that position which I'm doing regardless, I could honestly make contact with a model on the second floor of a ruin. What I hadn't considered was, is this bending the intent of the rules.

And yeah, I could see the battlewagon backing up against a building and also making contact, which would be silly sounding but I guess legal too.

As long as the model is assembled according to the instruction manual and you are not changing its posture during the game, there is nothing to be worried about.

Just have a look at all those tau players who have modeled their suits with the weapons pointing straight up, so the could draw LOS from there in 7th
Outstretched defiler claws are beyond harmless compared to that.

 Jidmah wrote:
As long as the model is assembled according to the instruction manual and you are not changing its posture during the game, there is nothing to be worried about.

Just have a look at all those tau players who have modeled their suits with the weapons pointing straight up, so the could draw LOS from there in 7th
Outstretched defiler claws are beyond harmless compared to that.

Ok great! That's exactly how my defiler is and how I have always played it.