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 greatbigtree wrote:
Just what the Orks want you to believe. Which makes it reality. *taps side of forehead, like that meme*

So you are stating that Ork belief makes reality and they want people to believe their belief doesn't make reality, which then reshapes reality into one in which Ork belief does not make reality. That is less parsimonious an explanation by Occam's Razor than simply their belief never made reality in the first place.

Well, I can honestly say I’ve never seen the word “parsimonious” before. I can honestly say I’ve been called worse.

The *joke* was that the Orks want you, specifically, to disbelieve the theory so that you, specifically, will be taken by surprise when a shoota doesn’t work when you try to use it in self defence, and thus become an easier victim for them to subjugate.

You’ve got to read between the lines, or adjust your tin foil or something.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, I can honestly say I’ve never seen the word “parsimonious” before. I can honestly say I’ve been called worse.

The *joke* was that the Orks want you, specifically, to disbelieve the theory so that you, specifically, will be taken by surprise when a shoota doesn’t work when you try to use it in self defence, and thus become an easier victim for them to subjugate.

You’ve got to read between the lines, or adjust your tin foil or something.

Except we know humans can use Ork shootas as that is what Armageddon Ork Hunters do.

You said this was 3rd edition Armageddon? Does it still represent the current canon? Cuz, once upon a time, Orkz also had genitals, but no longer.

 flandarz wrote:
You said this was 3rd edition Armageddon? Does it still represent the current canon? Cuz, once upon a time, Orkz also had genitals, but no longer.

Just because something hasn't been mentioned recently doesn't suddenly mean it no longer holds, whereas Ork reproduction has been explicitly retconned and changed, and it is that most recent explanation that holds.

That's fair, and why I asked. If the Ork Hunters haven't been brought up since that time, then I would agree that it still holds true.

Iracundus wrote:


The assertions of any Tech Priest about technology, particularly alien technology, are always suspect. They are first of all, fallible in-character POVs, but they also part of a mystery cult of technology that has claimed to have "proven" gauss weaponry to be impossible (from the 1st Necron Codex). Tell that to the Necrons as they continue to flay their enemies with their "impossible" weapons.

You're misunderstanding that conclusion the tech priests made about the Necron weapons. They're physically impossible, according to the knowledge of the Mechanicus. Yet they exist. Its not like the Mechanicus was saying "Necron Gauss weapons don't exist, they're 'fake news' ahurpderp!!!" They're saying "This should not be possible".

That happens all the time in real life too. Physicists are always discovering something new that defies what they think they know about the universe.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Iracundus wrote:


The assertions of any Tech Priest about technology, particularly alien technology, are always suspect. They are first of all, fallible in-character POVs, but they also part of a mystery cult of technology that has claimed to have "proven" gauss weaponry to be impossible (from the 1st Necron Codex). Tell that to the Necrons as they continue to flay their enemies with their "impossible" weapons.

You're misunderstanding that conclusion the tech priests made about the Necron weapons. They're physically impossible, according to the knowledge of the Mechanicus. Yet they exist. Its not like the Mechanicus was saying "Necron Gauss weapons don't exist, they're 'fake news' ahurpderp!!!" They're saying "This should not be possible".

That happens all the time in real life too. Physicists are always discovering something new that defies what they think they know about the universe.

The Tech Priests (while acknowledging the theoretical possibility of the idea) claimed to have proven functioning gauss weaponry mathematically impossible:

The design of a gauss weapon with all its parameters kept dynamic to achieve maximum efficiency is a mathematical impossibility...

p. 54, Oldcrons Codex

Later in that text, they go on about how even tiny microscopic imperfections in the machinery would cause the entire weapon to fail and be non-functional, which one could then argue is an engineering constraint. However the first bit, the supposed mathematical proof of the impossibility of gauss weaponry is what is important.

One could compare it to saying an object with mass can reach the speed of light, you just need infinite energy. Except one cannot get infinite energy. Therefore the conclusion is that mathematically it's been proven that it is impossible to reach the speed of light through conventional acceleration.

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I always thought of it as just helping things. The underlying mechanics of Ork tech need to work but their belief makes it work better so guns that should jam all the time don't, choppas chop better and, of course, red things go faster.

The assertions of any Tech Priest about technology, particularly alien technology, are always suspect. They are first of all, fallible in-character POVs, but they also part of a mystery cult of technology that has claimed to have "proven" gauss weaponry to be impossible (from the 1st Necron Codex). Tell that to the Necrons as they continue to flay their enemies with their "impossible" weapons.

So the easiest explanation of all is simply the Tech Priests are wrong about Ork technology.

Have you read the particular piece that had been referenced? It’s pretty clear that their interpretation is correct. There is little room for error and he appreciated the heresy inferred.

As to Ork hunters - they are a)very old fluff and b)using Ork weapons against Orks who absolutely believe their own weapons will hurt them. So it’s potentially proving the point.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I always thought of it as just helping things. The underlying mechanics of Ork tech need to work but their belief makes it work better so guns that should jam all the time don't, choppas chop better and, of course, red things go faster.

The assertions of any Tech Priest about technology, particularly alien technology, are always suspect. They are first of all, fallible in-character POVs, but they also part of a mystery cult of technology that has claimed to have "proven" gauss weaponry to be impossible (from the 1st Necron Codex). Tell that to the Necrons as they continue to flay their enemies with their "impossible" weapons.

So the easiest explanation of all is simply the Tech Priests are wrong about Ork technology.

Have you read the particular piece that had been referenced? It’s pretty clear that their interpretation is correct. There is little room for error and he appreciated the heresy inferred.

As to Ork hunters - they are a)very old fluff and b)using Ork weapons against Orks who absolutely believe their own weapons will hurt them. So it’s potentially proving the point.

I have the reference, but I think it far from clear their interpretation is correct. The Tech Priests have been wrong about Necron weaponry being impossible, and they can be similarly wrong about Orks. The Orks are in some areas more advanced than the Mechanicus, such as in the area of force field technology where they exceed even the Eldar. However the bigotry and human chauvinism of the Mechanicus prevents them from admitting that their barbaric opponents are better. It is far easier to simply dismiss their technology as non-functioning and working only on the power belief.

Armageddon Ork Hunter weaponry worked period. There was no specific requirement that their enemy had to be Orks, even though Orks would be the most likely target. If their Ork weaponry works in the absence of Orks, then it functions on its own.

Iracundus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I always thought of it as just helping things. The underlying mechanics of Ork tech need to work but their belief makes it work better so guns that should jam all the time don't, choppas chop better and, of course, red things go faster.

The assertions of any Tech Priest about technology, particularly alien technology, are always suspect. They are first of all, fallible in-character POVs, but they also part of a mystery cult of technology that has claimed to have "proven" gauss weaponry to be impossible (from the 1st Necron Codex). Tell that to the Necrons as they continue to flay their enemies with their "impossible" weapons.

So the easiest explanation of all is simply the Tech Priests are wrong about Ork technology.

Have you read the particular piece that had been referenced? It’s pretty clear that their interpretation is correct. There is little room for error and he appreciated the heresy inferred.

As to Ork hunters - they are a)very old fluff and b)using Ork weapons against Orks who absolutely believe their own weapons will hurt them. So it’s potentially proving the point.

I have the reference, but I think it far from clear their interpretation is correct. The Tech Priests have been wrong about Necron weaponry being impossible, and they can be similarly wrong about Orks. The Orks are in some areas more advanced than the Mechanicus, such as in the area of force field technology where they exceed even the Eldar. However the bigotry and human chauvinism of the Mechanicus prevents them from admitting that their barbaric opponents are better. It is far easier to simply dismiss their technology as non-functioning and working only on the power belief.

Armageddon Ork Hunter weaponry worked period. There was no specific requirement that their enemy had to be Orks, even though Orks would be the most likely target. If their Ork weaponry works in the absence of Orks, then it functions on its own.

Have you read the actual passage from the Beast Arises or not?

Either way I'm not sure why you're arguing this, to be honest. We have a more up to date piece of lore from the Beast Arises series that directly contradicts the idea that Ork weaponry "works" when it is not near an Orkoid creature. What's more likely - that we're supposed to somehow infer that the tech priest is wrong about his tests on Ork tech (despite there being absolutely zero hint of this in the passage) or that the lore has been updated and the old lore of 3rd edition no longer stands?

Now, as I have said, there are exceptions to the rule - Yarrick being the most obvious and consistent with the lore, so there's nothing to say that the Ork hunters couldn't use Ork weaponry (because the Orks believe them capable/Orky enough) but the most recent lore that we have spells out pretty clearly that the Ork psyche directly affects the lethality of their weaponry. Now that isn't to say they can pick up a rock and suddenly it can fire magical rock bullets because *belief*. What it means is that a gun that shouldn't functionally and mechanically be able to fire more than one shot without jamming (because it's as crude as feth) can fire a ton of shots without jamming because the Orks collectively believe it will. The same is true of Choppas - a crude, blunt axe is able to punch through power armour (when it obviously shouldn't be capable) because Orks believe it capable. And all of this makes sense in the lore of the universe, right? The Ork weaponry looks crude and useless - some of their Choppas are literally axes, just a big, ol' axe. Their shootas look like they're less developed than what we have irl right now, their rokkits are comedic and daft looking. I believe the gestalt psychic field thing is a way of explaining how these weapons can ever hope to hurt a Spess Muhreen (and the like) and it also gives the Ork weaponry a measure of volatility (that was usually represented in the rules). Finally it emphasises how Orks are considerably more powerful in greater numbers, because the more of them there are, the more of them are reinforcing the belief that the weapons are stronger than they should be and the weapons then act stronger than they should.

Also, thats the reason Stompas and Gorkanauts, etc... Are made more like giant relugious icons. Orks really believe they are avatars of Gork and Mork. That doesnt mean they cant mechanically work. They can, thats why mekboyz are always improving and inventing things.
But a Stompa can face a technologically stronger Imperial titan because theres a full waaagh behind it that believes they are watching a real avatar of Gork (or possibly Mork) going all Pacific Rim.

To be clear, I’m in the “psychic grease” camp. Where an Ork can make an otherwise non-functioning weapon work, and a functional weapon work even better.

This does not preclude the Ork Hunters or whatever they’re called from working or existing. I believe that the Orks are capable of making weapons that work in the real world, without their Gestalt. But they also make weapons, from time to time, that are missing a spring, or have too sloppy of a tolerance, or any manner of flaw in their design. The Gestalt overcomes that failing.

Now, sometimes, even that is not enough. Sometimes Ork creations fall apart mid-battle, or explode the first time someone tries to use it

But the psychic grease of the Gestalt makes that happen less often than it should, and makes good quality items great.