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Hey there! Recently I've been getting, well, a bit agitated at the number of forum posts about "this is why I don't like or play this game". Often it's in discussion about people that are looking to come back, or talking about what they think about the rules. I don't want to dissuade people from discussing these, because they're valid posts to make, and people have a right to hear all sides. But it seems that the number of voices answering with "I don't play, but here's why I think you shouldn't play either" has become louder. Not necessarily more... but certainly louder. I don't think it's very helpful when the loudest voices in a post where people are looking to know something are "don't try". So, I'm curious then, why do you still come here? I'm sure there are some great reasons, and so I've taken the benefit of the doubt (in most cases) and offered what I think are the BEST reasons that someone might still be posting here, even if they don't play (or they play incredibly infrequently).

Second, open question - what could be done to help you encourage other players coming to this forum to try the game first and see what you're talking about? I, personally, like to see the community grow - both in real life and online. I worry that just always chiming in that "the game is bad, don't play" only serves to make both communities smaller. So what could I do to help you reverse that trend?


EDIT: Added "I am looking at maybe starting 40k." forgot that some folks may be here for some of their first times!

My 40K playing has dropped off a cliff lately. But I still play rarely and more importantly I host a lot of games at my place - so I keep a finger on the pulse of rules, errata/FAQ, upcoming models, etc. I still enjoy the painting/hobby aspect of it all.

I have buddies who play who don't pay too much attention to forums and news, so I keep them abreast of upcoming kits/combos/fluff/books, etc. I will probably depart Dakka if 40K slows down or if I quit entirely, but even then I might play some games of 2nd, so I'd maybe still loiter.

I think you're missing the "I'm trying to feel superior to others by repeatedly demonstrating how I see GW for what I think it really is" option.

You're going to miss out on the most vocal demographic that still lingers like a fart and doesn't actually play or seemingly have any joy left in life.

Sadly if anyone is new to the hobby, or looking to get back in, I can't think of a worse place to come than DakkaDakka. All they'll find is salt, arrogance, and crying wolf.

On the upside, if you want the irony of a thread calling a new release OP next to a thread calling the same new release trash, or complaints about bloat next to complaints about not enough new releases, you've certainly come to the right place.

I'm here for the AoS and other games - you forget that whilst Dakka has a 40K focus it has a lot of other generalist threads on kickstarters and other games as well as Age of Sigmar.



Also several of the answers are unlikely to get truthful results - most trolls don't announce themsleves and some who are clearly very salty about the game and company often don't see themselves as such.

 Overread wrote:
I'm here for the AoS and other games - you forget that whilst Dakka has a 40K focus it has a lot of other generalist threads on kickstarters and other games as well as Age of Sigmar.



Also several of the answers are unlikely to get truthful results - most trolls don't announce themsleves and some who are clearly very salty about the game and company often don't see themselves as such.

Yeah, that`s Dakka Dakka as a whole. My question was about the 40k General Discussion forum. Like, some people may not play 40k and be on the Rules forum because they like helping people answer rules questions... but that`s not an answer because that`s a different forum. As for the trolls, it`s anonymous, and so sure they`re unlike to respond, but I like being thorough.


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 Sentineil wrote:
I think you're missing the "I'm trying to feel superior to others by repeatedly demonstrating how I see GW for what I think it really is" option.

You're going to miss out on the most vocal demographic that still lingers like a fart and doesn't actually play or seemingly have any joy left in life.

Sadly if anyone is new to the hobby, or looking to get back in, I can't think of a worse place to come than DakkaDakka. All they'll find is salt, arrogance, and crying wolf.

On the upside, if you want the irony of a thread calling a new release OP next to a thread calling the same new release trash, or complaints about bloat next to complaints about not enough new releases, you've certainly come to the right place.

Thanks for the response, and I very much feel the sentiment you`re carrying here. But I don`t want to insult people. Just from the votes already put up, a lot of people that don`t play that are here want the game to be better. They`re waiting. I hope some of them respond to my second question, because I want to help change that attitude here at Dakka.

While I do still play I'd like to know why people like to come in and gak on a new players parade when they ask for advice. I remember a guy made a thread asking what documents he needed for playing a Chaos army or something and BaconCatBug thundered into the thread like "HHHHWELLLLLLLLLLLLL...". Like why are you activly trying to turn people against something they just started taking an interest in?

From what I can tell GW just seems to instil this massive love/hate relationship (or love to hate relationship).

So you know, posts to the tune of "I've not played since about 2015, but I know the game is trash, GW is always trash and you are trash for playing it".

As the original poster says... its weird.

For instance... I don't much like Magic the Gathering. I very rarely play it unless someone I know is very keen for a game. I don't go to the forums and say blue is overpowered, nerf blue. I don't complain that the game has been going downhill for 2, 5, 10 or 20 years. I don't rush in to say that Wizards of the Coast or whoever are evil grasping businessmen intent on destroying all that is good in the world just to make some money selling me stuff.

Because I don't play it - and so I don't care.

But if you looked at most 40k forums for... well, since the internet became a thing, that has been a huge percentage of the posters.

Dakka does seem an unusual forum in terms of the amount of negativity for the hobby being discussed. It's a shame as it's not reflective of what I see in my local gaming group, and it does seem to be a minority of very vocal members.

I do want to see the game be good, interesting and encompasses the perceived scope that it’s trying to achieve.

I mostly just see it as a complicated game trying to be simple, to simple for what it is trying to achieve.
And a team that has no real drive to put out a top quality product, or has no ability to.
More like different teams all trying to do there own products with no sense of how they support each other.

Why I do not think it will happen, I do worry that if they are so reliant on space marines and the regular release of the product on that line. That they could have set themselves up in a poor position despite there strengths.

I also like discussing and reading about such things
Why I think sometimes looking down on products can be quite bad, I think the real toxicity and the reason I do not play was from the people that do get the most support.

You should be happy with what you have, you will get something soon. Why are you complaining about OP stuff I have. Ohh you play eldar, people who play eldar are just TFG.

Sometimes I feel like it’s the community that would prefer I was more positive, is the reason I have become this way.

40k could represent a awesome sci fi battlefield on the table, and why I do not think the older editions are great. I do think they have actuly lost a lot of that feel.
Pushing for, bigger more powerful individuals, tanks and other things. With no need for support and the shrinking of the simulated battlefield tactics that they utilise on what is already quite a small space.

In the end, I just find it sad that the reason I got into this hobby is left so unfulfilling and I wish it was better.

 Brother Castor wrote:
Dakka does seem an unusual forum in terms of the amount of negativity for the hobby being discussed. It's a shame as it's not reflective of what I see in my local gaming group, and it does seem to be a minority of very vocal members.

I put it down to the fact that the site has a good few people who have moved on from the hobby but not from the social interaction and community. The result is that they tend to bring their salt with them to the forum over and over again without actually realising it. Even though they've moved on and might not go to the local warhammer club any more or play different games at the local general club; they still retain the online connection because its basically no effort to be here.

Another group are those who tend to be more critical of things and who mostly post to be critical and don't tend to speak much of the positive sides. So they present a more negative attitude even if they don't realise it because their other game interactions (real world) are more weighted to the positive.

 Brother Castor wrote:
Dakka does seem an unusual forum in terms of the amount of negativity for the hobby being discussed. It's a shame as it's not reflective of what I see in my local gaming group, and it does seem to be a minority of very vocal members.

Its only unusual in the lack of overwhelming negativity. If you think Dakka is bad, I (somewhat) envy your internet history.

But mostly I'm tired of people complaining about people who have different points of view. And the OP comes across as 'if people don't like it, they should be made to go away'

You are forgetting the fun discussions from people who do play but insist on telling people they play the wrong way. Constantly. It’s like you mention power levels and they come swarming.

 Brother Castor wrote:
Dakka does seem an unusual forum in terms of the amount of negativity for the hobby being discussed. It's a shame as it's not reflective of what I see in my local gaming group, and it does seem to be a minority of very vocal members.

I could give two reasons, some of this discussion does not really come up in open gaming groups. I tend to let people play what they want to in our groups.
Can also depend who is in that group, there are a few people I just do not bring anything up with. I would not want to play 40k with them not matter how good the game was.

But second, some other places can be quite dismissive of any dislike of GW. Been kicked out of a Facebook group for saying way less than anything I have said on dakka. 40k players and fans can be super toxic like a lot of nerdy fandoms when there thing is not held as high as they think it should be.

 Yarium wrote:
Hey there! Recently I've been getting, well, a bit agitated at the number of forum posts about "this is why I don't like or play this game". Often it's in discussion about people that are looking to come back, or talking about what they think about the rules. I don't want to dissuade people from discussing these, because they're valid posts to make, and people have a right to hear all sides. But it seems that the number of voices answering with "I don't play, but here's why I think you shouldn't play either" has become louder. Not necessarily more... but certainly louder. I don't think it's very helpful when the loudest voices in a post where people are looking to know something are "don't try". So, I'm curious then, why do you still come here? I'm sure there are some great reasons, and so I've taken the benefit of the doubt (in most cases) and offered what I think are the BEST reasons that someone might still be posting here, even if they don't play (or they play incredibly infrequently).

Second, open question - what could be done to help you encourage other players coming to this forum to try the game first and see what you're talking about? I, personally, like to see the community grow - both in real life and online. I worry that just always chiming in that "the game is bad, don't play" only serves to make both communities smaller. So what could I do to help you reverse that trend?


EDIT: Added "I am looking at maybe starting 40k." forgot that some folks may be here for some of their first times!

Denying some of the core issues of the game (IGOUGO, terrible external and internal balance) is pure ignorance though. I wouldn't let anyone start Grey Knights or Necrons because this hobby is a good amount of investment in terms of time and money.

It doesn't matter how much you like the models if your ultra optimized Grey Knights can't even land a bit of damage on a casual Eldar list of all things.

I find, personally, that the issue with Dakka is the fact some members purposely start inflammatory threads which seem to eclipse those where someone, be they new to the hobby or otherwise, is genuinely asking for advice, hints, etc., i.e. mainly you just get to see the simians throwing their own faeces at one another.

I am not saying I haven't been guilty of this over the years myself.

My 40K playing has fallen by the wayside and I am moving into the board game aspect e.g. Warcry, Adepticus Titanicus, etc., but I do still frequent the monkey exhibition as there is some genuinely good advice pops up now and then and I like to try and stay relatively up to date with current state of the 40K game.

Sadly you do have to sift through an awful lot of detritus to find that good advice.

I wouldn't wonder if the more vocal members of Whineseer mde their way over here when it went down for like a year and thats why there's been an increase in complaining.

I'm still here because even though I'm pretty grumpy at 40k at the moment I have a playgroup that still enjoys it and is open to homebrew rules. If I have a broader base of people to give their opinions on what works, what doesn't work, and why that helps me build structures under which I can still use my models/play games with my friends.

Though I will admit I am probably complaining to hear myself complain too.


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 Sim-Life wrote:
I wouldn't wonder if the more vocal members of Whineseer mde their way over here when it went down for like a year and thats why there's been an increase in complaining.

This may be anecdotal but I feel like the level of complaining was similar during 7th. Maybe as the game starts to look more like 7th the community starts to react to it more like 7th.

I personally will continue to be salty at GW due to them ruining my hobby with 8th edition. Up until then I had fun playing 40k and it gave me motivation to paint my models. 8th drops and became such a chore to play and fails to give me the satisfaction that I got from 6th and 7th. While I don't have to play 8th (I don't) but generally the community as a whole plays the rules GW plops down and it has become next to impossible to find games for 7th. So I find myself with thousands of dollars of models that I sunk hundreds of hours into modeling/painting for a game that I loved to play before but got completely ruined by GW because they decided to rewrite the entire rule book into a bare bones unfun mess.

While I appreciate others finding joy in the current game, I do tend to be defensive of 7th because people generally treat 8th like its a gift from the Emperor himself while 7th gets viewed as a horrible dumpster fire with zero redeeming qualities. 7th has is fair share of problems and faults but it also has a lot of quirks and aspects of it that 8th cannot come close to matching because of the design choices (or design butchering) that GW did with 8ths core rules. I also tend to feel both frustration and a sort of schadenfreude from seeing GW revert to its old ways of balance problems, rules bloat, and power creep (the stuff that people damned about 7th and said 8th fixed all that because of "New GW (™)". Of course its really irritating to see the whole "love it or leave it" gak as it just dismisses any opposing view points and ignores any negative ramifications that 8th had on some players. Just like how runaway power creep in 7th had negative ramifications on some players.

Bitterness aside I still love 40k as a whole and still consider myself a part of the player community because I still try to find games to play (just with 7th edition rules). Maybe one day GW will realize that the pendulum swung too far in the other direction and look to bring a more complex and tactical game experience back to current 40k rules.

Just to screw with your poll #s I voted for all of them. Plus there's plenty of non-40k on Dakka.

My current GW gaming is currently split about 80% AoS, 20% 40k.

Anecdotal evidence;
My group of 6-9 regulars is still going strong for 40k. Not because the rules are perfect, but because we play more for the narrative side, and love the hobby side. I say that to say this:
I am the only member of that group who comes to Dakka. The rest of the group finds the site too negative, and often toxic, somewhat supporting the OP's list, although what that is worth I don't know. I have been accused of being too positive and encouraging myself, particularly in the painting forum. (And I find some of those accusations accurate...so guilty on that count and yes, that CAN be a bad thing)
Here, however, is my take.
Like all communities, the following applies; (and this is by far NOT a comprehensive or exclusive list. For some reason this has to be noted often here)
The site does have a percentage of "play my way or you're an idiot" posters
A percentage of those who criticize for the sub-conscious purpose of boosting their own ego
A percentage of those who vent against success or perceived success for a variety of reasons (mostly jealousy in my opinion) and focus on GW
A percentage of people of people who vent frustrations unrelated to this forum on this forum (displaced anger)

The problem is, each of these small percentages add up and can result in what seems a majority, because as in all things, they tend to "shout" the loudest to be heard. Just look at any "political" discussion right now in the USA. In general, content people remain silent.

Being an old man who remembers the stone age, I will point out that the internet makes these things worse, because in the real world extremely irritating or downright discourteous people can be avoided or, heaven forbid, punched in the nose... (my going strong group has "lost" or asked to leave several other players when their behavior became detrimental, and they refused or were unable to modify it. These things are subjective, but personal attacks and purposeful antagonism was generally the most common reason.)

The reality is, you have joined a forum where people are allowed and encouraged to share their opinions. They will. Accept, ignore, rage against, whatever, but they are allowed. It's the internet. Live with the haters, trolls, whatever moniker you want, because they are drawn to it, live on it, and thrive on it.
If only there was an App that gave you a color based on the posters real motivation behind a post...

What does toxic mean, when it doesnt describes a non plant or chemical?

Karol wrote:
What does toxic mean, when it doesnt describes a non plant or chemical?

Figuratively? Caustic. Hostile. Disruptive. Destructive. Causes more harm than good. Pretty much the same thing as when it describes a plant or chemical, but affecting human interaction instead of bodily function.

I still frequent this board, because it is connected to a hobby I enjoy, and a game I’m not currently interested in.

I would encourage people to play Kill Team. It’s a pretty decent game that you can get into for a reasonable cost (depending on faction).

Coming from a service background, I find managing expectations is crucial to happiness. Be it a job, your hobby, raising kids, being married... if you promise the stars then give them a moon (double entendre I tended) they won’t be happy. But if you promise a plain hamburger and deliver a hamburger with delicious toppings, people are almost always happy. If you promise 4 hours, but it takes 5, everyone is pissed. If you promise 6 hours and it takes 5, minutes everyone is happy. Same result, but different expectations. Different satisfaction.

So if someone comes to 40k expecting a *great* game, they’ll be disappointed. If they expect an *ok* game that only works well if both players are in it for the same reasons, that has cool models and overall good IP, then they can be happy within that framework. So that’s where my hope to grow the community comes from. Expect a 5, work for an 8, get a 7 in the end. Don’t expect an 8, work for a 3, and get a 1 in the end.

When people have their expectations met or exceeded, they become repeat customers. Same deal for gaming communities. If you have reasonable expectations from your activity, and you meet or exceed them, you’ll come back.

Some Dakkites have higher expectations from 40k than the game can currently deliver (myself included). I have to very actively control my games to make them even remotely interesting. I have to work to make the game *good* for me to play. So I hope that people coming into the game and hobby are prepared to play a game you (may) need to work at with your gaming group for it to be enjoyable. This edition is much more sandbox than I want it to be. I want a game I can play “out of the box” that is fun, challenging, and (better) balanced. I do *NOT* want to feel I have to create house rules to keep the game from devolving to who won the roll to go first... but I don’t feel that is what the game currently is.

Like I said, we can work to make it work... but we could also just play a game that’s ready to go without having to work at it first.

(To be clear, I don’t consider the hobby to be work... just setting up the parameters for a game is work that feels like it shouldn’t be necessary but is. 7th was like that for me. Early 8th wasn’t, but now modern 8th is again.)

Interesting enough I consider that to be the strong part of 40K and maybe the only aspect that even worked in 7th: despite all its flaws if you didn't consider 40k as a tactical wargame but instead as a roleplay or an action movie it worked with heavy House ruling and homewritten scenarios. The great thing about 8th is that this still applies, but you don't have to make up your own scenarios and the game has become more tactical. Still nothing compared to Lotr, but at least you have to plan and think what you do on the table and don't just watch the fireworks.

Concerning the Community I must say I was surprised to see some of the grumpy long time dakkanouts changing their attitude at the start of 8th, showing that they didn't hate GW without reason but because 7th really sucked for them. Some since have returned to being grumpy, others seem to be still grateful that 7th died.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Interesting enough I consider that to be the strong part of 40K and maybe the only aspect that even worked in 7th: despite all its flaws if you didn't consider 40k as a tactical wargame but instead as a roleplay or an action movie it worked with heavy House ruling and homewritten scenarios. The great thing about 8th is that this still applies, but you don't have to make up your own scenarios and the game has become more tactical. Still nothing compared to Lotr, but at least you have to plan and think what you do on the table and don't just watch the fireworks.

Concerning the Community I must say I was surprised to see some of the grumpy long time dakkanouts changing their attitude at the start of 8th, showing that they didn't hate GW without reason but because 7th really sucked for them. Some since have returned to being grumpy, others seem to be still grateful that 7th died.

That once again leads to the question of why we should do the jobs of the designers?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Interesting enough I consider that to be the strong part of 40K and maybe the only aspect that even worked in 7th: despite all its flaws if you didn't consider 40k as a tactical wargame but instead as a roleplay or an action movie it worked with heavy House ruling and homewritten scenarios. The great thing about 8th is that this still applies, but you don't have to make up your own scenarios and the game has become more tactical. Still nothing compared to Lotr, but at least you have to plan and think what you do on the table and don't just watch the fireworks.

Concerning the Community I must say I was surprised to see some of the grumpy long time dakkanouts changing their attitude at the start of 8th, showing that they didn't hate GW without reason but because 7th really sucked for them. Some since have returned to being grumpy, others seem to be still grateful that 7th died.

That once again leads to the question of why we should do the jobs of the designers?

I don't know. I do mods for the games I enjoy, as a hobby, so they catter even more to my tastes. And I love to play with mods other people does.

 Galas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Interesting enough I consider that to be the strong part of 40K and maybe the only aspect that even worked in 7th: despite all its flaws if you didn't consider 40k as a tactical wargame but instead as a roleplay or an action movie it worked with heavy House ruling and homewritten scenarios. The great thing about 8th is that this still applies, but you don't have to make up your own scenarios and the game has become more tactical. Still nothing compared to Lotr, but at least you have to plan and think what you do on the table and don't just watch the fireworks.

Concerning the Community I must say I was surprised to see some of the grumpy long time dakkanouts changing their attitude at the start of 8th, showing that they didn't hate GW without reason but because 7th really sucked for them. Some since have returned to being grumpy, others seem to be still grateful that 7th died.

That once again leads to the question of why we should do the jobs of the designers?

I don't know. I do mods for the games I enjoy, as a hobby, so they catter even more to my tastes. And I love to play with mods other people does.

Were those games playable before the mods is the question. Were they filled with bugs and everything imbalanced before your mods?

The answer is going to be "not really". Ergo, why should we do the job of the designers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Hey there! Recently I've been getting, well, a bit agitated at the number of forum posts about "this is why I don't like or play this game". Often it's in discussion about people that are looking to come back, or talking about what they think about the rules. I don't want to dissuade people from discussing these, because they're valid posts to make, and people have a right to hear all sides. But it seems that the number of voices answering with "I don't play, but here's why I think you shouldn't play either" has become louder. Not necessarily more... but certainly louder. I don't think it's very helpful when the loudest voices in a post where people are looking to know something are "don't try". So, I'm curious then, why do you still come here? I'm sure there are some great reasons, and so I've taken the benefit of the doubt (in most cases) and offered what I think are the BEST reasons that someone might still be posting here, even if they don't play (or they play incredibly infrequently).

Second, open question - what could be done to help you encourage other players coming to this forum to try the game first and see what you're talking about? I, personally, like to see the community grow - both in real life and online. I worry that just always chiming in that "the game is bad, don't play" only serves to make both communities smaller. So what could I do to help you reverse that trend?


EDIT: Added "I am looking at maybe starting 40k." forgot that some folks may be here for some of their first times!

Denying some of the core issues of the game (IGOUGO, terrible external and internal balance) is pure ignorance though. I wouldn't let anyone start Grey Knights or Necrons because this hobby is a good amount of investment in terms of time and money.

It doesn't matter how much you like the models if your ultra optimized Grey Knights can't even land a bit of damage on a casual Eldar list of all things.

And here one of them is. I swear the words power level summon them to a thread.

Or you can actually address the points instead of "be positive or leave".

I do play 40k, though not that often. I started in early 3rd edition as an absolute fanatic, skipped 6th and 7th due to disappointment with the rules, and came back to 8th hoping for a substantially better game after hearing that GW threw away the old rules and started from scratch. I think greatbigtree's post about expectations is bang on target, because my expectations have not been met and that's what makes me feel sad. Probably they were too high from the start.

I also think aging and hardening is a part of it too. I got started in 40k when I was 14. Looking back, 3rd edition was an absurdely unbalanced game. But as a kid I didn't care. My friends and I had a ton of fun with it anyway, despite the nonsensical rules of the era. Now I'm in my 30s and it's harder for me to get excited about something fun but flawed given the enormous universe of entertainment options out these today. I'm more demanding of perfection--especially for something as expensive as 40k is. It was cheaper when I was a kid, but to be fair it was always quite expensive. Today the prices feel patently absurd, even though I have a level of disposable income that I could have only dreamed of 20 years ago. The models are so good that you can craft a plausible excuse in your mind to spend $35 for five plastic soldiers or $75 on a plastic tank. But the rules aren't worth the paper they're printed on, which makes it feel downright insulting that you're expected to buy so many of these expensive glossy full-color books, most of whose content is recycled from prior versions.

Like others, I agree that you need to house-rule things to make the game playable outside of the context of two friends talking it out ahead of time regarding what they want. So I like reading discussions here about the kinds of house rules people have come up with fix the game. I also mine these ideas for a set of custom tabletop wargame rules that I wrote for a game some of my friends are developing. Originally it was going to be purely a Necromunda-sized game but I've since made it able to accommodate 40k-sized battles without bloat, and I'm working on writing rules for the various 40K factions so I can use it to play 40k. I guess I'm basically doing what the OnePageRules folks did. However I'm not a huge fan of those rules, though they are better than 40K in many ways. IMO they're too similar to 40K, and don't really take advantage of the possibilities available when you create something from scratch.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Were those games playable before the mods is the question. Were they filled with bugs and everything imbalanced before your mods?

The answer is going to be "not really". Ergo, why should we do the job of the designers?

That's strange, I seem to play games all the time? Seems pretty playable to be!

It's actually a perfectly enjoyable game when you and the person you're playing aren't toxic. Very similar to any other game actually.

But hey, GW are evil, can't design a game, don't know what they're doing, don't know what the customer wants, over charge, only make marines and hate Xenos, yadda yadda.

I get this funny feeling that a lot of people 'waiting for the game to be better' just want the game to go back to editions past, which just won't happen. But hey, rose tinted goggles are always in-season on Dakka.

I do play 40k and I come here to see what people are complaining about. It's kind of like watching a different news channel, so I can get the good and the bad, both sides of the argument. Helps me relate to more people without being a glaze-eyed fanboy, though I do find most of the complains to be just straight silly, tired, and over-done. Few people beat dead horses as well as some of the Dakka regulars.