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Hey all been thinking of a new army based on NATO troops in Afghanistan. The problem I have is I really dislike the plastic cadians and love the scions so I would really prefer to have squads of them as my infantry instead.

The basis of the force would be troops mounted in Taurox prime to represent Foxhound armoured vehicles. Backed up by Some valks and tanks for the extra firepower.

Just wondering if this sort of list would be viable?? I've only played marines in 8th and am looking for something a little bit different.

As is often the case, it comes down to how competetive you are aiming to be and how competetive the local meta you are playing in is.

What you've listed above sounds cool, is pretty fluffy and will look great
It will also play fine, you have mobile infantry for objective grabbing, tanks for heavy firepower and some air support.

Is it competetive? In a word no :/
Scions are expensive T3 models with short range guns, they work best when dropping in and eliminating a target, not from transports which aren't particularly effective this edition. There are very few situation where an infantry squad isnt just better.
The tanks are great but the valks are very over costed for what they bring to the table.

Depending on how much you are willing to bend your idea a couple of small changes could up the power a fair bit. Adding some bulgryn for combat support will help the list not get swept away in assault and even a single artillery piece would be worth its weight in gold.

If your opponents aren't playing bleeding edge of the meta lists and are happy bringing similarly themed armies then your original list would be alot of fun to play with and against

Or is the OP asking about simply using Scion minis as generic Guard?

ccs wrote:
Or is the OP asking about simply using Scion minis as generic Guard?

No dude I was asking if scions are viable.

Fluff wise I have a very large crimson fist army now so these would be part of the Rynns guard in support of my marines. Thinking of a dessert scheme with a blue shoulder pad or something as a mark of honour for service in support of the chapter.

Scions at the start of the edition were amazing. Now, less so, same goes for the Taurox prime.

I think with experience spent with them they could be reasonably effective but transport mounted troops aren't all that wonderful this edition all said and done.

The LRBT is good and despite the one poster above me I actually place the valk pretty high up there in ability. They got some tricks up their sleeve to be sure. A robust vehicle with pretty good firepower once it hovers and even moving with the rocket pods.

Are they meta defining no, but saying they are bad is going a bit too far, as I said towards the start of 8th they were a go to list and if you know how to use them Scions can still put the fear into the enemy. They are however not super tough, so realize glass hammers they be.

Rogerio134134 wrote:

ccs wrote:
Or is the OP asking about simply using Scion minis as generic Guard?

No dude I was asking if scions are viable.

Fluff wise I have a very large crimson fist army now so these would be part of the Rynns guard in support of my marines. Thinking of a dessert scheme with a blue shoulder pad or something as a mark of honour for service in support of the chapter.

It depends entirely how your army is going to be built. Mono Scions are largely a one trick pony army. They hit hard on the drop, but have very limited staying power, and very limited mechanized support options that can reliably pull their weight. Running alongside marines is possible, but you have to be willing to sacrifice doctrines and super-doctrines to do so. In the case of Fists, I wouldnt recommend it. Their power comes largely from their super-doctrine, and Scions arent going to provide enough support in small numbers to balance out giving that away.

For non-codex marines however, or Imperium allied armies though, theyre fantastic. I have a cadre of ~400 points of Scions (plus guard Psyker support) that I run alongside my Deathwatch (fluffwise its a similar situation, auxiliary forces permanently assigned to the Marine formation) and they do fantastic.

Regular Tauroxes are a bit meh, given that they're BS4+ and equipped with heavy weapons.

Taurox primes IMO are fairly solid with the gatling cannon+volley guns, the big struggle the army has is its reliant on melta guns and the few guns on Valkyries to do anti-vehicle work, and they've got nooooooooooooo melee so if they don't kill what they hit, they're in trouble.

They're more or less like Helldivers if you've ever played the game. They hit hard when they land but die like sacks of squishy meat when remotely focused on. So you more or less have a glass cannon army, you have mobility but no staying power. So you're very dependent on your alpha/beta strike in taking out the key damage dealers in your opponent's army, because if you don't, you'll probably lose.

 Grimskul wrote:
They're more or less like Helldivers if you've ever played the game. They hit hard when they land but die like sacks of squishy meat when remotely focused on. So you more or less have a glass cannon army, you have mobility but no staying power. So you're very dependent on your alpha/beta strike in taking out the key damage dealers in your opponent's army, because if you don't, you'll probably lose.

God forbid the opponent does area denial so you cannot deep strike.

The endless nerfs to deep strike have really taken the teeth out of scions.

Well, one of the guys in my gaming group has a list similar to your idea. He won Best of Astra Militarum at LVO last year.

Not sure how well it would do now with all of the new Vanguard Space Marines and the meta shifts since then.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
They're more or less like Helldivers if you've ever played the game. They hit hard when they land but die like sacks of squishy meat when remotely focused on. So you more or less have a glass cannon army, you have mobility but no staying power. So you're very dependent on your alpha/beta strike in taking out the key damage dealers in your opponent's army, because if you don't, you'll probably lose.

God forbid the opponent does area denial so you cannot deep strike.

The endless nerfs to deep strike have really taken the teeth out of scions.

Yeah, it's a bit much but at the outset Scions were so good it was crazy. In typical GW fashion though they didn't stop when the nerfs were enough to deep strike they jumped the shark. Play the game long enough and you'll see GW over react in a fix to make something that was amazing to, meh it's ok I guess or all the way to, it sucks. A tale as old as time.

Rogerio134134 wrote:

ccs wrote:
Or is the OP asking about simply using Scion minis as generic Guard?

No dude I was asking if scions are viable.

Oh, my mistake. In that case YES, but.... It'll depend upon how you build them, how you play them, & the exact meta/enviroment you intend to use them in.

The window in which scions are viable is still very tight. My opinion on them isn't very good, here's why.

1) Glasshammer. They drop, do damage and probably die next turn, as every gun will point at them, and they will likely be in rapid-fire range too.
2) RF 18" sucks. You need to play very aggressively and do your best to stay within rapid-fire range so the lasguns kill something. Another way is to spam special weapons, which gets rather expensive (both in points and money) very quickly.
3) Nerf to Deepstrike. IT was possible to jump from a Valkyrie and get to the rapid-fire range. Now it's not. You again rely on plasma guns or volley guns (they are Heavy) to do any significant damage, as you get 12-18 lasgun shots at best, even with FRFSRF.
4) Tempestor sucks. You either give him a pistol, or an ability to give 2 orders, instead of one. That's s steal for his point cost, really. You can use a stratagem or make him a warlord too, to give more orders, but sending a warlord on a suicide mission is... well... not a good idea, generally.

It could be fun to play a friendly narrative game like this, but don't expect to win tourneys.
Guard is a horde shooting army, going too elite usually doesn't work, as for points you pay for 10 scions you get about 25 guardsmen, that shoots a bit worse, but over two times as much, and further too, and losing them is not much of a deal for you. Getting 1-2 Scion squads, ok, but having nothing but scions for line infantry won't do much good for you.

And if you dislike Cadians, you can look ar 3rd party miniature companies. There is plenty of them.

The others have covered most of the issues with Scions. While they're not good enough to be the core of your army over guard infantry, they can still serve a pretty good purpose. Dropping in some plasma where you need it can be useful to clear stubborn objective holders in cover, but it's always a suicide mission. Many other Imperial armies do the job better too, if you want to soup.

As for models, many of the Necromunda minis make great alternatives to the admittedly dated Cadian models. You can pick up lasguns on bits sites or ebay for next to nothing to make sure they're armed correctly, if your gaming group is touchy about that kind of thing. The Van Saar or new Enforcer models have that more high-tech tactical look you might want to go for in your army. If you can find models you like to represent them, I would recommend building a core of infantry squads and then sprinkling your Scion units around for flavour, acting as your special ops.

I have never seen the value of 18" S3 AP-2 D1 shooting. The AP is almost entirely invalidated nowadays, and the range automatically defeat's their deepstrike purpose. No, seeing as how they are free, the only use for them is filling out a squad that is based around the 4 plasma rifles they can carry.

Better yet, just go with a SCD and go 3 Tempestors, and 3 Command squads kitted out with Plasma. Murder squads from the sky HO!

If you ask competitive players whether Scions are viable, they will likely assume you mean triple Command Squads with 4 plasma guns each dropping right next to things you want dead, not squads of 10 with the basic HSLGs riding in Tauroxes. Just keep that in mind when you do your research.

Also, when you ask about 'viability', there's a big variance there too. Viability with your friends in a casual meta? Viability in local tournaments where people are expected to bring their best list? Viability at LVO? Does 'viable' mean a 50/50 win ratio, or that you expect to win more often than you don't, or that you just want to have a good time even if you ultimately lose?

Just saying, this is something of an ambiguous question that can garner ambiguous answers. Personally I'm putting together a wholly airborne Scions list, and expect it to be a fun matchup against my buddy's Elysians, but I'd never take it to a cutthroat tournament. That's my idea of viable. YMMV.

 catbarf wrote:
If you ask competitive players whether Scions are viable, they will likely assume you mean triple Command Squads with 4 plasma guns each dropping right next to things you want dead, not squads of 10 with the basic HSLGs riding in Tauroxes. Just keep that in mind when you do your research.

Also, when you ask about 'viability', there's a big variance there too. Viability with your friends in a casual meta? Viability in local tournaments where people are expected to bring their best list? Viability at LVO? Does 'viable' mean a 50/50 win ratio, or that you expect to win more often than you don't, or that you just want to have a good time even if you ultimately lose?

Just saying, this is something of an ambiguous question that can garner ambiguous answers. Personally I'm putting together a wholly airborne Scions list, and expect it to be a fun matchup against my buddy's Elysians, but I'd never take it to a cutthroat tournament. That's my idea of viable. YMMV.

I had minor success doing max squads with 4 Plasma Guns riding up in Tauroxs. The Taurox being expensive for the durability puts a dent in the plan overall though each time.

I have a Scion army and it does exceedingly well.

6 ten-man Scion Squads. All of them have 2 Volleyguns and 2 plasma, except two units that have melta instead.

The three Command Squads have all plasma, then all melta and finally a mixed plasma+melta command squad.

I use a Taurox Prime to get my Tempestors into position when they aren't deep striking.

I back up the whole thing with some Cadian artillery, Rough Riders and Cadian mortar groups.

I really have not lost to many forces with it. Its agile and able to snake points where needed. Units are big enough to keep a lot of the heavy firepower active. Accurate enough to matter and the Artillery forces the action so that I can afford to be patient if I want to. Sometimes i don't drop until turn three, depending on how the enemy reacts; because i can. =)

Please don't listen to the above advice of mixing Volley Guns and using Melta.

I have found that the only way to make a "pure" scions force work is with bullgryns. I know they arent scions but are clearly designed to match. They look great together and give Scions everything they lack. And on top of that they are actually very decent on the tabletop.

I find the Scion plasma death valkrie battalion formation a good glasshammer trick. 2 Valks, the drop formation and warlord (-2 CP sadly), 2 commanders, 3 min size troops with 1 plasma pistol 2 plasma guns each, 1 plasma command squad. Reinforce with a Vulture for giggles. 7-800 ish points depending on choices. Spits out an amazing amount of firepower, often hitting on 2's.

But I support it with a different guard regiment. You could support with transports, 10 man squads with volleyguns and auxiliaries, but I've no experience of that.

Really they are all about their special weapons which are sadly rather expensive, with expensive bullet shields in the form of the hot shots.

 Galas wrote:
I have found that the only way to make a "pure" scions force work is with bullgryns. I know they arent scions but are clearly designed to match. They look great together and give Scions everything they lack. And on top of that they are actually very decent on the tabletop.

Could you please go into more detail about it? Sounds very interesting to me.

The problem of Bullgryns is that they are slow. That can be fixed with Valkyries, but they also offer what Scions lack, durability and counter charge potential. And if they reach enemy positions because your enemy is tryng to destroy tauroxes primes and flyers is very easy to underestimate Bullgryns.

Also, Bullgryns with a priest are one of the beat Imperium mele units. They work better with a Catachan horde but they work with scions too.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I find the Scion plasma death valkrie battalion formation a good glasshammer trick. 2 Valks, the drop formation and warlord (-2 CP sadly), 2 commanders, 3 min size troops with 1 plasma pistol 2 plasma guns each, 1 plasma command squad. Reinforce with a Vulture for giggles. 7-800 ish points depending on choices. Spits out an amazing amount of firepower, often hitting on 2's.

But I support it with a different guard regiment. You could support with transports, 10 man squads with volleyguns and auxiliaries, but I've no experience of that.

Really they are all about their special weapons which are sadly rather expensive, with expensive bullet shields in the form of the hot shots.

At 1000pts, I've been playing with a list that goes roughly like this:

Drop Force formation from Vigilus
-Valkyries A and B, both with rocket pods and heavy bolters
-Vulture with twin Punishers
-2 Tempestors with command rods, one takes the special warlord trait and goes in Valk A, other DSes
-2 bare squads of 10 Scions, DSing
-1 squad of 10 with 4 plasma guns, in Valk A
-1 squad of 10 with 4 meltaguns, in Valk B

The strategy is pretty simple- the Valkyries rush up and drop right in front of the enemy on turn 1, with the two squads of Scions hitting on +1 and getting extra shots on 5s at point blank range, along with whatever order is most useful in context. The Tempestus-specific one (reroll wounds on monsters and vehicles) is good if there's a lot of big things that need to die ASAP, but FRFSRF throws out a lot of extra shots up close too, and Take Aim is generically useful.

On turn 2, the two squads of regular Scions come in with their Tempestor to give them FRFSRF, either to seize objectives or throw in more firepower. DS isn't optimal with 18" rapid fire, but FRFSRF makes up for it somewhat. If they can drop into cover, they become extremely durable.

Meanwhile the Vulture just does its thing and mulches infantry.

It's a very swingy list- either the initial drop does a crippling blow on turn 1, or the Scions die and then their reinforcements die too. I wouldn't take it to a tournament, but it's fun and plays very differently from any other Guard list I've tried.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Please don't listen to the above advice of mixing Volley Guns and using Melta.

Please absolutely ignore his advice to ignore my advice. Thanks.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Please don't listen to the above advice of mixing Volley Guns and using Melta.

Please absolutely ignore his advice to ignore my advice. Thanks.

It wasn't clear from your post, but were you suggesting having two squads carry 2 HSVG and 2 melta, or two squads being all-melta? Because the latter seems very reasonable, but I'd have to agree that mixing HSVGs and melta in the same unit is a questionable move.

 catbarf wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Please don't listen to the above advice of mixing Volley Guns and using Melta.

Please absolutely ignore his advice to ignore my advice. Thanks.

It wasn't clear from your post, but were you suggesting having two squads carry 2 HSVG and 2 melta, or two squads being all-melta? Because the latter seems very reasonable, but I'd have to agree that mixing HSVGs and melta in the same unit is a questionable move.

Melta Guns are awful for the price and he suggested taking Volleys in a unit that wants more Plasma.

YES it is bad advice and NO you should not listen to it.

 catbarf wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Please don't listen to the above advice of mixing Volley Guns and using Melta.

Please absolutely ignore his advice to ignore my advice. Thanks.

It wasn't clear from your post, but were you suggesting having two squads carry 2 HSVG and 2 melta, or two squads being all-melta? Because the latter seems very reasonable, but I'd have to agree that mixing HSVGs and melta in the same unit is a questionable move.

Every squad has 2 Volleyguns. They have been absolute money.
Each squad has two plasma. Two of the Squads switched their plasma for meltaguns. All of them took the Plasma Pistol (didnt mention that).

The results have been fairly stellar. You are blasting 13 very potent shots from each squad on the drop, plus their pew pew STR 3 guns. It's very effective. The penalty for the drop on their shooting is not a concern. to me and because they are ten strong I can often leave them stationary in the next round while moving the rest of the squad. I am pretty happy with the continued success. There are a lot of ablative wounds in the squads and a lot of the time, th combined fire is so impressive that you are somewhat unconcerned with the potential return fire anyways. You can take out substantial chunks of your target at a time.

The range of the Volleyguns is very attractive in those units, given that they can drop where they like. The STR 4 instead of 3 makes a world of difference in wounding. I am pretty pleased with them. We are in an age where Volume of Fire is kind of king in 40K, and so GIVEN that you are already committed to taking them anyways and GIVEN they are a drop army anyways, the Volleyguns make sense.

The mix of meltas in a couple of the squads was done after a lot of testing. As a matter of course, it has been QUITE typical for newer lists to lead with armor and cut off deep Strikes that way. Triple Executioners, the more artful Sentinals, the Hard charging Hellhounds, or just enormous and faster monsters like Mortarion, Dark Eldar Raiders and so on can all be the source of this problem. So having some melta made sense even in those units. I wouldn't be vey critical of someone for taking Plasma in their stead. 3 hits at -3, wounding on 5's isn't a terrible way to get two wounds on a tank/monster/whatever. I just want the higher average damage, better chance ot wound and less chance for them to save that Melta provide. I think you can go either way. and maybe that's meta dependent. Maybe your meta doesnt really see Triple Executioners and all that stuff. Mine does.

That's interesting. Why take two mixed squads over one with all melta, and one with all HSVG, though? Seems that with more specialized squads you wouldn't have to juggle optimal ranges and orders.

It's probably also harder for the enemy to identify and remove the squad that's best optimized against their army.