Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 catbarf wrote:
That's interesting. Why take two mixed squads over one with all melta, and one with all HSVG, though? Seems that with more specialized squads you wouldn't have to juggle optimal ranges and orders.

You can split fire anyways. But this way the enemy cannot take out the weapons that most threaten them with any ease whatsoever. The weapons the enemy most wants to kill are buried 8bodies deep.

The other reason is because I then have much more overwatch in every squad.

The third reason is because the exploding 6's are fantastic when you're firing as many shots as possible and the extra hits in one unit may obviate the need to keep attacking the same target. This is the least of the reasons frankly but the decision whether to split up your volleyguns becomes considerably easier when theres only 2 to begin with. You rarely fall prey to overkill like you might if you were firing all 4 "just to be sure". You also get to see what the first volley did BEFORE deciding to commit two more.

As for orders, it can safely be said that Take Aim is literally always my choice on the drop. After that, Situation becomes King.

I think Melta vs Plasma is a win for Plasma. If they were the same cost there is more of a decision.

Melta - to get the 4.5 average damage and chance of a second shot you need to be within 6", not going to happen jumping out of a Valk turn 1.
Plasma gets the extra shots jumping out the valk.

Looking at it - Above 12" plasma obviously wins. 6-12", assuming drop chute deployment, 3 plasma (60 points) are on average doing (with re-roll 1's) 8 Str 8, 2 Damage, -3 hits.
Assuming its a tank (T8, Sv3+), the melta's favoured prey, that is 6.8 damage.

At the same range on the drop 3 melta cost 9 points (69 points) more and are doing 5.1 damage.
At 0-6" assuming the valk is stationary when you hop out, you finally exceed the max power plasma guns doing 9 damage on average.

For completeness regular 3 plasma (though on the drop you can't overheat so why use it?) at the under 12" range does on average 2.3 damage to a toughness 8, 3+ save target.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's probably also harder for the enemy to identify and remove the squad that's best optimized against their army.

They're not optimized so that's not an issue.

You people are taking advice from the guy that said Imperial Guard had one of the best melee deathstars in 6th/7th and defended it to the death. Y'all know that, right?

The Melta sucks because you can't get the bonus shots out of the park unless your opponent is braindead against Valks, and the Volley Guns are bad when they drop because they get a -1 to hit and therefore don't get the bonus shots either.

Just don't listen to Jancoran. Seriously.

The_Real_Chris wrote:I think Melta vs Plasma is a win for Plasma. If they were the same cost there is more of a decision.

Melta - to get the 4.5 average damage and chance of a second shot you need to be within 6", not going to happen jumping out of a Valk turn 1.
Plasma gets the extra shots jumping out the valk.

Looking at it - Above 12" plasma obviously wins. 6-12", assuming drop chute deployment, 3 plasma (60 points) are on average doing (with re-roll 1's) 8 Str 8, 2 Damage, -3 hits.
Assuming its a tank (T8, Sv3+), the melta's favoured prey, that is 6.8 damage.

At the same range on the drop 3 melta cost 9 points (69 points) more and are doing 5.1 damage.
At 0-6" assuming the valk is stationary when you hop out, you finally exceed the max power plasma guns doing 9 damage on average.

For completeness regular 3 plasma (though on the drop you can't overheat so why use it?) at the under 12" range does on average 2.3 damage to a toughness 8, 3+ save target.

I'm assuming you're using Grav-Chute Commando for the +1 to hit when disembarking, hence the 8 hits (7.78 rounded) on the plasma, right?

I bolded the bit I disagree with- why not? You can't use grav-chutes to disembark within 9", but you can move after disembarking to get you within half range. With a 19.9" Valk move, 3" disembark radius, 6" normal move, and 6" 'maximum melta' range, you have a threat radius of 34.9", which goes up to cover the entire board if you're willing to risk mishaps. Even against an opponent who's reasonably competent with bubble-wrapping I've usually been able to find something vulnerable to target.

Anyways, if you're shooting a vehicle on the drop, you shouldn't be using Take Aim, you should be using Elimination Protocol Sanctioned. Your plasma is safe anyways thanks to the +1 to hit.

So three plasma guns, overcharging, hitting on 2s, with extra shots on 5s, rerolling failed wounds, average 8.33 damage against a T8/3+ target.

Three meltaguns, hitting on 2s, with extra shots on 5s, rerolling failed wounds, average 11.25 damage.

However, after that initial drop, you have to switch the plasmas over to Take Aim or they do risk blowing themselves up. Then the triple plasma with Take Aim averages 4.54 damage, while the triple melta with Elimination Protocols averages 7.87 damage.

I do think that plasma is still currently the all-around better choice, but we're a month away from Chapter Approved, and it wouldn't take much to make melta the more reliable/cost-effective choice for vehicle-hunting with plasma being the more generalist option.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're not optimized so that's not an issue.

There are lists that take sub-optimal loadouts for deliberate reasons, for example Matthew Allee's list was arming Aspiring Sorcerers with Hand Warpflamers so Rubrics could win in CC. I'm always curious to see why people make different decisions, especially if they have success with that.

This is an open internet forum, everyone can read what everyone writes and decide what they think for themselves. You can debate facts, state your point, respectfully disagree, and anything beyond that just marks you down as obnoxious and rude. An ad hominem about 7th edition deathstars? Give me a break man.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think Melta vs Plasma is a win for Plasma. If they were the same cost there is more of a decision.

Melta - to get the 4.5 average damage and chance of a second shot you need to be within 6", not going to happen jumping out of a Valk turn 1.
Plasma gets the extra shots jumping out the valk.

Looking at it - Above 12" plasma obviously wins. 6-12", assuming drop chute deployment, 3 plasma (60 points) are on average doing (with re-roll 1's) 8 Str 8, 2 Damage, -3 hits.
Assuming its a tank (T8, Sv3+), the melta's favoured prey, that is 6.8 damage.

At the same range on the drop 3 melta cost 9 points (69 points) more and are doing 5.1 damage.
At 0-6" assuming the valk is stationary when you hop out, you finally exceed the max power plasma guns doing 9 damage on average.

For completeness regular 3 plasma (though on the drop you can't overheat so why use it?) at the under 12" range does on average 2.3 damage to a toughness 8, 3+ save target.

I don't use any planes. seems like an enormous waste of points. You're also assuming overcharging I am guessing by this math.

I understand why poeple would use Plasma, as I mentioned. I also think that given that I will be alive to use it again, I'd prefer the Meltas be there. it isn't just the drop that you need to concern yourself with. The economy of shots you can have when you roll well is super nice.

Again, I would not question anyone's wisdom for taking the plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


You people are taking advice from the guy that said Imperial Guard had one of the best melee deathstars in 6th/7th and defended it to the death. Y'all know that, right?

...and I was right. I don't know why you are such a bitter person that you cling to arguments literal YEARS AGO.

I cannot very well go back and refund all my wins to appease your delusion that I was wrong. =) Wins are what they are friend. Real and tangible, as compared to a bunch of theory hammering.

So there's that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


The Melta sucks because you can't get the bonus shots out of the park unless your opponent is braindead against Valks, and the Volley Guns are bad when they drop because they get a -1 to hit and therefore don't get the bonus shots either.

I've not met an opponent who could be everywhere they need to be all the time. So you suppooooosing that there will never be the opening is sort of... pointless. Respecting ones opponent is a good idea, you're not wrong there. But suggesting that they will have the freedom when the time comes to decide whether I get a landing zone or not is sort of ignoring the fact that I have a whole army to cause that to happen. So... Here again, theoryhammering it is fine but its not better than real life.

 Jancoran wrote:


I don't use any planes. seems like an enormous waste of points. You're also assuming overcharging I am guessing by this math.

Indeed - because while grav chuting with your warlord you get a +1 to hit, making both the extra shots occur on a 5 or 6, and plasma completely safe to shoot.

The verdict on planes in my club is next tourney they will ban flyers just to stop me using Valks.

I find them far superior to other Guard transports.

Turn 0 you are -1 to hit, which you can keep unless you want to go into hover mode (and have your movement cut to 9").

At toughness 7, wounds 14! 3+ save you are tougher than all the other Guard transports (that aren't super heavy).

For 137 points you have a silly amount of firepower. 1 Multilaser, 2 heavy bolter and 2 MRL (assault D6 Str 5 -1sv - on average slightly better heavy bolter). Compare that to the Chimera's 73 for a heavy bolter and multilaser.

If you hover you get +1 to hit.

For 20 points you can have a spotter who lets you re-roll ones against one unit.

And the icing on the cake, the slightly nerfed, get out *after* moving.

If you have stuff worth transporting, they are an excellent transport.

I have about 70 stormtroopers and 5 Tauroxes (Tauroxi?), I wanted to greenstuff kilts and paint them with my family tartan for a Highland regiment. Our clan motto even has a mountain lion that looks similar enough to the panel on the Taurox. I 3d printed wheeled axles to replace the ugly tracks.

Regardless of how the army plays or performs on the tabletop there's one thing you need to be aware of. Do you care about mold lines? Are you a moldlinephobic like me? Do you feel the need to run your Xacto knife along every model to get rid of mold lines till your hand cramps? I'm not sure what happened to the stormtrooper mold but EVERY SINGLE SPRUE has a massive mold line running down it. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. It will take you hours to clean them if you focus as much as I do on it.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


I don't use any planes. seems like an enormous waste of points. You're also assuming overcharging I am guessing by this math.

Indeed - because while grav chuting with your warlord you get a +1 to hit, making both the extra shots occur on a 5 or 6, and plasma completely safe to shoot.

The verdict on planes in my club is next tourney they will ban flyers just to stop me using Valks.

I find them far superior to other Guard transports.

Turn 0 you are -1 to hit, which you can keep unless you want to go into hover mode (and have your movement cut to 9").

At toughness 7, wounds 14! 3+ save you are tougher than all the other Guard transports (that aren't super heavy).

For 137 points you have a silly amount of firepower. 1 Multilaser, 2 heavy bolter and 2 MRL (assault D6 Str 5 -1sv - on average slightly better heavy bolter). Compare that to the Chimera's 73 for a heavy bolter and multilaser.

If you hover you get +1 to hit.

For 20 points you can have a spotter who lets you re-roll ones against one unit.

And the icing on the cake, the slightly nerfed, get out *after* moving.

If you have stuff worth transporting, they are an excellent transport.

Yeah but I can afford three more squads for the price of all that and not get stranded. they come with quite similar firepower. That is the trade off. For example, I have 14 lootaz and 6 Traktor Kannons in my ork list. It's an issue. With that you can kill two of those birds and then what? Crimson Hunters are played by EXCELLENT Eldar players like Colin Sherman. The list of problems isn't small.

Those are some reasons why I dont take them. No one can stop my firepower from arriving, and the only thing I lose is dropping closer. Dropping after you move is cool, no doubt aboot it. Just not cooler than say...three more squads of Militarum Tempestus. Methinks.

 Jancoran wrote:


Yeah but I can afford three more squads for the price of all that and not get stranded. they come with quite similar firepower. That is the trade off. For example, I have 14 lootaz and 6 Traktor Kannons in my ork list. It's an issue. With that you can kill two of those birds and then what? Crimson Hunters are played by EXCELLENT Eldar players like Colin Sherman. The list of problems isn't small.

Those are some reasons why I dont take them. No one can stop my firepower from arriving, and the only thing I lose is dropping closer. Dropping after you move is cool, no doubt aboot it. Just not cooler than say...three more squads of Militarum Tempestus. Methinks.

I think at that point though its more your army build and trade offs than any inherent weaknesses in the platform - for example why get a Valk when you could get a demolisher? Because you want a fast transport or because you want str 10 firepower. Likewise with your choice - 3 5 man quads with 6 volley guns between them are 177 points and give you better board control, objective secured and the ability to hide in deepstrike, compared to 137 points for a single transport with greater firepower that has to start on the board. The Valk is at risk to specialised anti air that some lists have, the Scions to anti horde firepower (toughness 3 brings a tear to the eyes of Scion commanders everywhere...).

 Jancoran wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think Melta vs Plasma is a win for Plasma. If they were the same cost there is more of a decision.

Melta - to get the 4.5 average damage and chance of a second shot you need to be within 6", not going to happen jumping out of a Valk turn 1.
Plasma gets the extra shots jumping out the valk.

Looking at it - Above 12" plasma obviously wins. 6-12", assuming drop chute deployment, 3 plasma (60 points) are on average doing (with re-roll 1's) 8 Str 8, 2 Damage, -3 hits.
Assuming its a tank (T8, Sv3+), the melta's favoured prey, that is 6.8 damage.

At the same range on the drop 3 melta cost 9 points (69 points) more and are doing 5.1 damage.
At 0-6" assuming the valk is stationary when you hop out, you finally exceed the max power plasma guns doing 9 damage on average.

For completeness regular 3 plasma (though on the drop you can't overheat so why use it?) at the under 12" range does on average 2.3 damage to a toughness 8, 3+ save target.

I don't use any planes. seems like an enormous waste of points. You're also assuming overcharging I am guessing by this math.

I understand why poeple would use Plasma, as I mentioned. I also think that given that I will be alive to use it again, I'd prefer the Meltas be there. it isn't just the drop that you need to concern yourself with. The economy of shots you can have when you roll well is super nice.

Again, I would not question anyone's wisdom for taking the plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


You people are taking advice from the guy that said Imperial Guard had one of the best melee deathstars in 6th/7th and defended it to the death. Y'all know that, right?

...and I was right. I don't know why you are such a bitter person that you cling to arguments literal YEARS AGO.

I cannot very well go back and refund all my wins to appease your delusion that I was wrong. =) Wins are what they are friend. Real and tangible, as compared to a bunch of theory hammering.

So there's that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


The Melta sucks because you can't get the bonus shots out of the park unless your opponent is braindead against Valks, and the Volley Guns are bad when they drop because they get a -1 to hit and therefore don't get the bonus shots either.

I've not met an opponent who could be everywhere they need to be all the time. So you suppooooosing that there will never be the opening is sort of... pointless. Respecting ones opponent is a good idea, you're not wrong there. But suggesting that they will have the freedom when the time comes to decide whether I get a landing zone or not is sort of ignoring the fact that I have a whole army to cause that to happen. So... Here again, theoryhammering it is fine but its not better than real life.

1. The point of bringing up bad advice in a previous edition is a way to show that you are still giving bad advice, and apparently I was completely right the moment you suggested those terribad mixed loadouts.
2. If that were REALLY the case, Melta would be more popular on platforms that could deliver it that close. Yet that doesn't actually show up, and there are plenty of reasons for that. Plasma takes significantly less effort to get to the potential damage you're looking for, is much easier to activate the Scion special rule with, and more importantly doesn't rely on randumb. All on top of that it's cheaper to actually use.
You also have yet to counter the point that Volleys are going to be useless on the drop.

Some good stuff in here guys thanks for the advice. Seriously considering a tempestus force! I would love to do normal guard but the cadians just don't do it for me anymore.

As has been outlined earlier I'd probably take multiple squads of scions who jump in nice and close and unleash their heavy firepower then follow up with some more as the game goes on from grav chute. Would definitely use some guard tanks though to back them up and to hold objectives.

Will probably stick the scions start collecting set on my Xmas list haha

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think Melta vs Plasma is a win for Plasma. If they were the same cost there is more of a decision.

Melta - to get the 4.5 average damage and chance of a second shot you need to be within 6", not going to happen jumping out of a Valk turn 1.
Plasma gets the extra shots jumping out the valk.

Looking at it - Above 12" plasma obviously wins. 6-12", assuming drop chute deployment, 3 plasma (60 points) are on average doing (with re-roll 1's) 8 Str 8, 2 Damage, -3 hits.
Assuming its a tank (T8, Sv3+), the melta's favoured prey, that is 6.8 damage.

At the same range on the drop 3 melta cost 9 points (69 points) more and are doing 5.1 damage.
At 0-6" assuming the valk is stationary when you hop out, you finally exceed the max power plasma guns doing 9 damage on average.

For completeness regular 3 plasma (though on the drop you can't overheat so why use it?) at the under 12" range does on average 2.3 damage to a toughness 8, 3+ save target.

I don't use any planes. seems like an enormous waste of points. You're also assuming overcharging I am guessing by this math.

I understand why poeple would use Plasma, as I mentioned. I also think that given that I will be alive to use it again, I'd prefer the Meltas be there. it isn't just the drop that you need to concern yourself with. The economy of shots you can have when you roll well is super nice.

Again, I would not question anyone's wisdom for taking the plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


You people are taking advice from the guy that said Imperial Guard had one of the best melee deathstars in 6th/7th and defended it to the death. Y'all know that, right?

...and I was right. I don't know why you are such a bitter person that you cling to arguments literal YEARS AGO.

I cannot very well go back and refund all my wins to appease your delusion that I was wrong. =) Wins are what they are friend. Real and tangible, as compared to a bunch of theory hammering.

So there's that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


The Melta sucks because you can't get the bonus shots out of the park unless your opponent is braindead against Valks, and the Volley Guns are bad when they drop because they get a -1 to hit and therefore don't get the bonus shots either.

I've not met an opponent who could be everywhere they need to be all the time. So you suppooooosing that there will never be the opening is sort of... pointless. Respecting ones opponent is a good idea, you're not wrong there. But suggesting that they will have the freedom when the time comes to decide whether I get a landing zone or not is sort of ignoring the fact that I have a whole army to cause that to happen. So... Here again, theoryhammering it is fine but its not better than real life.

1. The point of bringing up bad advice in a previous edition is a way to show that you are still giving bad advice, and apparently I was completely right the moment you suggested those terribad mixed loadouts.
2. If that were REALLY the case, Melta would be more popular on platforms that could deliver it that close. Yet that doesn't actually show up, and there are plenty of reasons for that. Plasma takes significantly less effort to get to the potential damage you're looking for, is much easier to activate the Scion special rule with, and more importantly doesn't rely on randumb. All on top of that it's cheaper to actually use.
You also have yet to counter the point that Volleys are going to be useless on the drop.

Do it your way dude. Like I said: theory hammer is cool and all. Ignoring results seems to be your thing and It's America where I live. You're entitled to do that. I won't. Volume of fire, in general, for the win. Twice as true in this force. Meta says you better take them big dogs down or you lose. Triple tides with drones, Executionals and Leviathans, and the list goes on.

Good luck.

You literally just posted "I'm not going to counter your point" in a convoluted way. Not to mention you use Leviathans to somehow try and prove something about Melta, when they ignore the base parts of Melta moreso than Plasma and take more of a hit from the half-damage strat or Iron Stone.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally just posted "I'm not going to counter your point" in a convoluted way. Not to mention you use Leviathans to somehow try and prove something about Melta, when they ignore the base parts of Melta moreso than Plasma and take more of a hit from the half-damage strat or Iron Stone.

Not everyone plays Iron Hands Leviathans. But yes, Iron Hands may have one in there. And no they can reduce damage but then something else isn't. Pick your poison. Part of the charm here is that you can sucker the enemy into using it on one, and then pound the other. Simple solution there. Same thing goes for Eldar when they pop lightning Reflexes. You fire at it to get them to trigger it and then you switch targets.

We really DONT have a board to reference here nor an army sitting on it so that I can have this discussion meaningfully. So as i said IN THE BEGINNING, I would not question the wisdom of someone who uses Plasma. Most of my units have it. I just see MORE wisdom in having SOME in a couple of the units. Play it your way if you cannot figure out how to make that work for you. I can. I do. What else is there to say?

I love Scions, they're really effective. BUT you get hard diminishing returns on them. The more you have the less you get back.

Two command squads and three infantry squads is the maximum really, and you should definitely put them in Chimeras (if supporting IG) or a Valkyrie, not a Taurox. You need the 2 extra seats for adding characters.

If the points drops for the upcoming CA is true, Scions may be dropping down to 7 ppm, which makes a full Scion list more viable than before. Still die like a wet paper bag to most things, but you'll have significantly more boots on the ground compared to before.

I don't know if you would win tournament after tournament with them - but I felt Tempestus were viable for casual games at 9 points and so they are going to be very good at 7 points.

To join the meta debate -

I think melta is slightly overcosted for all armies - but its nice when it works. Plasma is probably better in most circumstances but I can understand why you might take some of each.

I'm not sold on the flyers. Again, when they work its fine. But if you bring 3 in say a 1750 point army that's a lot of points. And if you bring just one it feels a bit... vulnerable/disjointed. If regular Tempestus go down to 7 points you can bring a lot more bodies to just jog along and shoot (other guard stuff is available). I guess the other way of looking at it though is you save a bunch of points, so flyers are more affordable.

Tyel wrote:
I don't know if you would win tournament after tournament with them - but I felt Tempestus were viable for casual games at 9 points and so they are going to be very good at 7 points.

To join the meta debate -

I think melta is slightly overcosted for all armies - but its nice when it works. Plasma is probably better in most circumstances but I can understand why you might take some of each.

I'm not sold on the flyers. Again, when they work its fine. But if you bring 3 in say a 1750 point army that's a lot of points. And if you bring just one it feels a bit... vulnerable/disjointed. If regular Tempestus go down to 7 points you can bring a lot more bodies to just jog along and shoot (other guard stuff is available). I guess the other way of looking at it though is you save a bunch of points, so flyers are more affordable.

Yeah, because 5 man squads just to squat on objectives on the backfield will actually be decent, especially in cover. 35 points for 5 guys with a 3+ in cover? Not bad in my books.

We had the "Loyal 32" and the "Rusty 17". I hereby proclaim a battalion of basically armed Scions the "Drop-in 17":
2x Lord Commissar
3xMilitarum Tempestus Scions

All for 175 points (assuming all other points costs stay the same).

Arcanis161 wrote:
We had the "Loyal 32" and the "Rusty 17". I hereby proclaim a battalion of basically armed Scions the "Drop-in 17":
2x Lord Commissar
3xMilitarum Tempestus Scions

All for 175 points (assuming all other points costs stay the same).

Eh Commisars break the trait. I'd rather just pay for their Commander variant. At least get off one order and stuff.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
We had the "Loyal 32" and the "Rusty 17". I hereby proclaim a battalion of basically armed Scions the "Drop-in 17":
2x Lord Commissar
3xMilitarum Tempestus Scions

All for 175 points (assuming all other points costs stay the same).

Eh Commisars break the trait. I'd rather just pay for their Commander variant. At least get off one order and stuff.

You're right. It should be:

2x Tempestor Primes
3x Militarum Tempestus Scions

For 185 points. Again, assuming that the Tempestor Prime point cost remains the same.

With the new reduced cost of Scions, I may take another look at taking the Airborne 32 in conjunction with my Custodes Detachment. They make surprisingly good objective holders, and can be depended on to reliably keep back horde charges.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
We had the "Loyal 32" and the "Rusty 17". I hereby proclaim a battalion of basically armed Scions the "Drop-in 17":
2x Lord Commissar
3xMilitarum Tempestus Scions

All for 175 points (assuming all other points costs stay the same).

Eh Commisars break the trait. I'd rather just pay for their Commander variant. At least get off one order and stuff.

They don’t break the trait. Nothing on the Advisors and Auxillia list prevents Scions from using their Stormtroopers doctrine.

Well dayam. My army just got even more lethal. And I like it a lot.

My militarum Tempestus are built from a tooooooooon of storm trooopers I collected over time because they sucked in almost everyone's opinions. So I just kept collecting and hoping. Oh glorious day when that codex originally dropped. They played a lot like Dark Eldar then, so I had a frame of reference. Time passed and they changed but the more it changed the more dudes in boots I got into the game.

MUh gad, with all those extra points... I uh...i like it alot.