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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure, but just let it play out. If it's still a gak sandwich after CA then we've got work to do to either bust GW's balls, comp, or play something else.

PA1 was their first chance to do something to address the situation and utterly failed to do so.

PA2 appears to be following in the same footsteps.

CA will bring points adjustments, you will still be putting inferior models on the table.

GW ignored their testers, they are off on their own and not taking feedback from anyone apparently, so this idea that we'll somehow convince GW to fix things is not currently backed up by the facts.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure, but just let it play out. If it's still a gak sandwich after CA then we've got work to do to either bust GW's balls, comp, or play something else.

PA1 was their first chance to do something to address the situation and utterly failed to do so.

PA2 appears to be following in the same footsteps.

CA will bring points adjustments, you will still be putting inferior models on the table.

GW ignored their testers, they are off on their own and not taking feedback from anyone apparently, so this idea that we'll somehow convince GW to fix things is not currently backed up by the facts.

There's a lot we don't know. The IH FAQ was delayed a fair bit. Was it because of an internal battle of ideas? Or were they scrambling last minute to address the backlash? Either way there was a reaction. If marines stay too good and we care about the game then we have to organize a message and be relentless.

We can't do that when we can't yet convince everyone of an issue, which is why a little more time is needed. And I'm sure lots of people would say, "why are we doing GW's job for them?". Part of the goal would be to push for internal change and if this were ever the time we could reach GW this is it. This isn't the days of yore when a new codex would set the meta for the rest of the edition.

Any weapon that has AP5 has uses, it's going to let a Chaos Lord or DP one-shot a Primarch.

You will need Prescience, DStrength, and Death Hex of course!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Any weapon that has AP5 has uses, it's going to let a Chaos Lord or DP one-shot a Primarch.

You will need Prescience, DStrength, and Death Hex of course!

That's a whole bunch of support needed. AP5 is good right now, because of centurions, primaris. repulsors, and invictors.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
For chaos marines I've always liked the idea of them having a semi horde style ability with normal marines. Mass produced marines who are still marines, but these are not the hyper trained, indoctrinated or experienced boys veterans are. These are lab grown and mass produced comparative trash. The best trash in the game, but still trash. Lower their points and there you go.

Then have the real killers. Long war veterans, cult marines and grizzled trash that fermented into a hardened badass killer. These are your boys you go to for that proper marine feeling so 2 wounds, better attacks, more options, elite slots and the like. These are the guys who stand up to Primaris and dominate lower tier mooks. Naturally more expensive and valuable.

Or just play red Corsairs, virtually the same effect and a legion soup detachment.
Same effect, worked somewhat effectively before new marines literally just roffled all over that combination.



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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Any weapon that has AP5 has uses, it's going to let a Chaos Lord or DP one-shot a Primarch.

You will need Prescience, DStrength, and Death Hex of course!

That's a whole bunch of support needed. AP5 is good right now, because of centurions, primaris. repulsors, and invictors.

"So you just need a lord and two sorcerers and some cp lads. "

Great dex design.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
For chaos marines I've always liked the idea of them having a semi horde style ability with normal marines. Mass produced marines who are still marines, but these are not the hyper trained, indoctrinated or experienced boys veterans are. These are lab grown and mass produced comparative trash. The best trash in the game, but still trash. Lower their points and there you go.

Then have the real killers. Long war veterans, cult marines and grizzled trash that fermented into a hardened badass killer. These are your boys you go to for that proper marine feeling so 2 wounds, better attacks, more options, elite slots and the like. These are the guys who stand up to Primaris and dominate lower tier mooks. Naturally more expensive and valuable.

Or just play red Corsairs, virtually the same effect and a legion soup detachment.
Same effect, worked somewhat effectively before new marines literally just roffled all over that combination.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Any weapon that has AP5 has uses, it's going to let a Chaos Lord or DP one-shot a Primarch.

You will need Prescience, DStrength, and Death Hex of course!

That's a whole bunch of support needed. AP5 is good right now, because of centurions, primaris. repulsors, and invictors.

"So you just need a lord and two sorcerers and some cp lads. "

Great dex design.

While I aren't disagreeing you will be taking some troops for cps and 2-3 hqs anyway, you basically described a battalion.

Yeah except battalions worth of subpar units with a pricetag that is absurd frankly.
Btw did we mention there are other combinations also needing those cp and stratagems and buffs? Which do the same thing except better for cheaper or comparable price point?
See the issue?

How much CP do you think goes into a Loyalist Smash Captain to make it work?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How much CP do you think goes into a Loyalist Smash Captain to make it work?

I am not talking about a smashcaptain here so what.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How much CP do you think goes into a Loyalist Smash Captain to make it work?

I am not talking about a smashcaptain here so what.

Well, you did deride the state of CSM for that dynamic, but chose to ignore the same situation on the loyalist side. It's not necessarily a fair accounting even if it's not the greatest use of those resources.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How much CP do you think goes into a Loyalist Smash Captain to make it work?

I am not talking about a smashcaptain here so what.

Well, you did deride the state of CSM for that dynamic, but chose to ignore the same situation on the loyalist side. It's not necessarily a fair accounting even if it's not the greatest use of those resources.

Considering that the loyalist side now has marines that, you know actually work as they should, most certainly more on the edge on too good, i rest my case.

Further did i state that i deride the situation just for Chaos?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How much CP do you think goes into a Loyalist Smash Captain to make it work?

I am not talking about a smashcaptain here so what.

Well, you did deride the state of CSM for that dynamic, but chose to ignore the same situation on the loyalist side. It's not necessarily a fair accounting even if it's not the greatest use of those resources.

Considering that the loyalist side now has marines that, you know actually work as they should, most certainly more on the edge on too good, i rest my case.

Further did i state that i deride the situation just for Chaos?

No dog in the fight here. Just offering a perspective from the edge.

No worries, i just in general think the whole stratagem schtick was badly handled.
It also is quite absurd how certain armies are expected to use their CP to get units to perform whilest others get something actually deserveing the name stratagem.
Ironically the buff stacking, whilest prevalent in all marines is the biggest weakness of all kinds of marines right now except ih because reasons.
It is just so much ressource investment in such a small area that it can be sometimes easily shut down.
And frankly the aura fighting reminds me more off 18th century musket warfare then 40k
.

This is what I mean: you're complaining that you have to spend CP to make your HQs work. Guess what? So do Loyalists.

You're complaining for the sake of complaining. Not everything that is Chaos Space Marines is bad. Not everything that is Chaos Space Marines is worse than the Loyalist counterpart. There's enough stuff that needs adressing without you complaining about the stuff that doesn't. There's a bunch of bad CSM units; Daemon Princes or Smashlords aren't among them.

Well this is just an AP5 D2 sword that will usually wound Marines on 2s.

It's a good fit for a Jump Lord who can chew up isolated troops or backline units.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This is what I mean: you're complaining that you have to spend CP to make your HQs work. Guess what? So do Loyalists.

You're complaining for the sake of complaining. Not everything that is Chaos Space Marines is bad. Not everything that is Chaos Space Marines is worse than the Loyalist counterpart. There's enough stuff that needs adressing without you complaining about the stuff that doesn't. There's a bunch of bad CSM units; Daemon Princes or Smashlords aren't among them.

Was I again talking about just hq? Which are probably the best thing csm have (excluding master of executions and MoP, because why do they exist) and generally can do without babysitting to sanktnimmerleinstag.

I mentioned that other units do the same for cheaper ressource wise for Chaos allready which also need the corresponding stratagem to work that would "wasted" on a daemon weapon User overall.
Same with the supporting hq.

It is a Fancy beatstick for a dex that has too many of the same beatsticks whilest severly lacking a general improvement to the core. Meanwhile it would further require ressources like votlw activations cp etc for a dex that needs these ressources on completely different models to work.
It might aswell be renamed into dex slaaneshalphaobliterterminator.

Further take a gander at the recent heat 3 results. It's pretty clear which faction now does work (too good now) and which doesn't really anymore.




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 Daedalus81 wrote:
There's a lot we don't know.

What we do know is damning enough that I'm not giving GW money until this crap is fixed. The game is broken, period.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The IH FAQ was delayed a fair bit. Was it because of an internal battle of ideas?

Yes, it's because everything their play testers warned them about happened. Then the IH FAQ brought them down from being absurdly overpowered to just top tier gatekeepers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Or were they scrambling last minute to address the backlash? Either way there was a reaction. If marines stay too good and we care about the game then we have to organize a message and be relentless.

Seriously man, you're not this dense. There was a spat of tournaments where IH absolutely crushed it with a winning percentage higher than pre-nerf Ynnari. But sure, maybe proper is messaging is all we need, maybe some flyers, a bake sales, some light protesting in Nottingham?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
We can't do that when we can't yet convince everyone of an issue, which is why a little more time is needed.

The people who are not convinced of the issue at this point will never be convinced. That includes just about 35%+ of the player base at this point, if the number on marine players are anything vaguely resembling accurate.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
This isn't the days of yore when a new codex would set the meta for the rest of the edition.

Are you high? It has defined the meta since it's release. The rest of the edition will be spent catching up to it, and given that PA seems to be their attempt to do so, it doesn't look to good.

I haven't seen anything that is going to get me to put a CSM model on the table again.

a_typical_hero wrote:
And being excited about an upcoming release is something we cant let happen here, so better quickly copy&paste / post that:

- my faction gets less than your faction
- what my faction get is trash anyway
- more marine rules *slow clap*

PA1 did do something for Craftworlds, the Inquisition WD article seems to shape up nicely, the last supplements have been great.

How about we wait with the criticism until we have the full rules and let people enjoy the anticipation of new releases?

40K has ranged from overall absolutely terrible gameplay design and balance to overall "okay" gameplay design and balance, for the better part of 20 years. And yet, for almost 20 years people like you have been saying "we should wait for more information before drawing conclusions". Don't you think that's weird? What goodwill do you think GW has that would necessitate crossing our fingers and praying that this time, THIS TIME, unlike the last 50 times, there'll be some heretofore unreleased information that will result in these rules being a fantastic addition to the army?

I don't see the problem in acknowledging that the info we've seen points to the rules being garbage as usual. When you take into consideration their track-record it makes more sense to assume that GW will feth up as they usually do and be pleasantly surprised if they don't then to cling to the hope that in the end everything will be great.

It's been 2 months. Castellans were the longest lasting and that 6ish months with mid-term tweaks.

Thats far different than the years of chaos in 7th with no hope for change.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This is what I mean: you're complaining that you have to spend CP to make your HQs work. Guess what? So do Loyalists.

You're complaining for the sake of complaining. Not everything that is Chaos Space Marines is bad. Not everything that is Chaos Space Marines is worse than the Loyalist counterpart. There's enough stuff that needs adressing without you complaining about the stuff that doesn't. There's a bunch of bad CSM units; Daemon Princes or Smashlords aren't among them.

Was I again talking about just hq?

The discussion you were replying to was about HQs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's been 2 months. Castellans were the longest lasting and that 6ish months with mid-term tweaks.

Yes, and they dominated tournaments during that time. GW skipped over multiple opportunities to fix that problem. Quite frankly if they take 6 months to fix this problem, I think I'll just take that as my cue to leave the hobby.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Thats far different than the years of chaos in 7th with no hope for change.

So the whataboutism argument is as long as this doesn't persist for more than a couple years, at least it wasn't as bad as Chaos? Good answer, roll with that.

SM is allowed to be OP for the next couple years because Chaos deathstars are bad, mmkay?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
40K has ranged from overall absolutely terrible gameplay design and balance to overall "okay" gameplay design and balance, for the better part of 20 years. And yet, for almost 20 years people like you have been saying "we should wait for more information before drawing conclusions". Don't you think that's weird? What goodwill do you think GW has that would necessitate crossing our fingers and praying that this time, THIS TIME, unlike the last 50 times, there'll be some heretofore unreleased information that will result in these rules being a fantastic addition to the army?

I don't see the problem in acknowledging that the info we've seen points to the rules being garbage as usual. When you take into consideration their track-record it makes more sense to assume that GW will feth up as they usually do and be pleasantly surprised if they don't then to cling to the hope that in the end everything will be great.

You dont see anything being different? Nothing at all?

It's not clinging to hope. Its giving enough space to make a case. If people would quit being so adversarial you'd drive fewer people to the corners.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You dont see anything being different? Nothing at all?

It's not clinging to hope. Its giving enough space to make a case. If people would quit being so adversarial you'd drive fewer people to the corners.

No actually, the only difference is the frequency of rules updates, and given that they regularly fail to use those to make obviously needed changes, it's clearly more masturbatory crap to throw bones to the player base, which will continue to buy their toy soldiers regardless.

PA is our rules update.

PA is the thing that's supposed to bring all the other factions up to snuff.

You are not getting a new codex, no new model line, this is the update that's supposed to keep you competitive with marines.

Good luck.

Neat. Glad Deamon weapons are making an appearance. I really like the concept. I hope we will see some awesome conversions out of this. Also, essentially rolling for effects is making a slight return. I like that and hope there will be more of that implemented. Not expecting anyone to agree with me of course. Its just personal preference.

I don't have a dog in the fight as my book didn't even get a relic.. soo...

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You dont see anything being different? Nothing at all?

It's not clinging to hope. Its giving enough space to make a case. If people would quit being so adversarial you'd drive fewer people to the corners.

No actually, the only difference is the frequency of rules updates, and given that they regularly fail to use those to make obviously needed changes, it's clearly more masturbatory crap to throw bones to the player base, which will continue to buy their toy soldiers regardless.

PA is our rules update.

PA is the thing that's supposed to bring all the other factions up to snuff.

You are not getting a new codex, no new model line, this is the update that's supposed to keep you competitive with marines.

Good luck.

Going from once every 2 to 3 years to 2 week codex FAQs, yearly points, and semi-annual FAQs is quite a bit of change when you consider FAQs of old didn't address much and points rarely changed and only begrudgingly. Tournaments had their own list of FAQs and comp. Hell the FAQs this year are better than those last year.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good [or better].

GW says they're committed. They have a path. Now we hold them to it. Financially or otherwise.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Financially or otherwise.

Yeah, I haven't bought anything from them in a couple months. There's nothing I want from them currently, and I won't be paying for F&F or CA since all the information in them will be in BattleScribe, which is close enough.

There are no Chaos units I want to buy, because the ones I don't have in abundance have been relegated to trash.

But hey, they've gotten a good chunk of money out of me this edition, so kudos to GW sales for that.

I can't wait to compare and contrast with the daemon weapon rules I've written. I think my rules for Necrons I wrote before the codex came out were superior to what we got, but the Drukhari codex was better than what I wrote, I hope can manage better rules than my first draft daemon weapons like they did with Drukhari.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Article says this:

including all the shiny, new Legion-specific rules for all you traitors out there

When teasing 8th edition article from community site used ork burna as an example to show how new blast/template weapons were going to work and it referenced being D6. In reality it turned out to be D3.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Going from once every 2 to 3 years to 2 week codex FAQs, yearly points, and semi-annual FAQs is quite a bit of change when you consider FAQs of old didn't address much and points rarely changed and only begrudgingly. Tournaments had their own list of FAQs and comp. Hell the FAQs this year are better than those last year.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good [or better].

GW says they're committed. They have a path. Now we hold them to it. Financially or otherwise.

Does it mattter if the fix happen every 12 months or every 36 months, when a lot of people quit the game after a year or so? which kind of a coralates with waiting till a CA or big FAQ is suppose to fix stuff, the fix not happening and people quiting.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
And being excited about an upcoming release is something we cant let happen here, so better quickly copy&paste / post that:

- my faction gets less than your faction
- what my faction get is trash anyway
- more marine rules *slow clap*

PA1 did do something for Craftworlds, the Inquisition WD article seems to shape up nicely, the last supplements have been great.

How about we wait with the criticism until we have the full rules and let people enjoy the anticipation of new releases?

40K has ranged from overall absolutely terrible gameplay design and balance to overall "okay" gameplay design and balance, for the better part of 20 years. And yet, for almost 20 years people like you have been saying "we should wait for more information before drawing conclusions". Don't you think that's weird? What goodwill do you think GW has that would necessitate crossing our fingers and praying that this time, THIS TIME, unlike the last 50 times, there'll be some heretofore unreleased information that will result in these rules being a fantastic addition to the army?

I don't see the problem in acknowledging that the info we've seen points to the rules being garbage as usual. When you take into consideration their track-record it makes more sense to assume that GW will feth up as they usually do and be pleasantly surprised if they don't then to cling to the hope that in the end everything will be great.

This.

GW don't need to make good, balanced rules. Their fandom is so rabid that they'll buy anything with a GW logo stamped on it (remember the overpriced GW PVA glue, and Tape measure?). They (GW) have little incentive to change, especially now as the one potential competitor they had (PP) shot themselves in the foot.

Once in a while GW do produce a good, balanced set of rules, however it isn't long before the rot sets in, or the game isn't given the support it needs, so it dies off.

The models and setting are fantastic, and there is literally nothing else like it, this is what is the main draw to their products. Honestly, I can't blame people for being immersed in the setting and collecting such wonderful miniatures... what I can't understand is people supporting the rules GW produce. The sheer fact that there is a constant glut of FAQ/Erratas shows that GW aren't bothered about getting it right. Why do they need to, when they can sell you their attempt at a fix... and do it on a yearly basis? More money for them, for very little effort.

8th is a mess, just like every previous edition since 4th, all that is changed is that GW got savvy to things like FB and got a great PR team to make them seem like your friend, and people bought into it, as it was a refreshing change from the old GW's PR... which had the warmth of an ice cube.