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Yes, Kryptman did exterminatus a bunch of planets. Planets that were in the path of the Tyranids. he did it to deny the hive mind biomass. Much like firefighters will burn a strip of forest to deny a forest fire fuel, or how chemotherapy kills a whole bunch of cells so that the cancer will die.

And it worked. The Hive fleets were forced to turn away as there was no biomass to consume. Killing billions to save trillions. That is the tragedy of the Imperium.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
As for Exterminatuses a planet that turned away from the Imperium ill do you one better. Inquisitor Kryptman Exterminatus dozens if not hundreds if LOYAL imperium planets. Not choas infected, not genestealer infected, not even turned away. Planets that were still wholly and entirely LOYAL.

I'd like a citation for this, because Inquisitors don't get to waste the Emperor's Currency- other Inquisitors will EAGERLY bring them to heel for this.

That was a thing. But he was basically creating a firebreak to redirect a tendril of hive fleet leviathan away from the core of the imperium, and into the ork empire of Octavius.

He was also excommunicated for it. Showing that even the other inquisitors thought it was a bit much, and indeed did bring him to heel for it.

i just looked at a list of human rebellions and the meritech wars show the imperium destroying everyone involved despite not being chaos or Xenos related. Then there’s the logicians who apparently are under attack for being reasonable. Something about logic and free thinking being heresy (despite having no chaos influence).
Also krieg happened

As for the vespid, it’s speculation that the helmets mind control them. Sure it’s possible, but it’s also possible that they work exactly as advertised. GW has left this ambiguous so that players can decide for themselves.
Regardless, my point was more aimed at ethereal controlling other tau, which has not been stated to be the case. There’s been insinuation that the ethereals are unusually charismatic and calming but that’s pretty much it.

Dandelion wrote:
Also krieg happened

And the end result was a damned fine regiment, you're welcome for their service.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, Kryptman did exterminatus a bunch of planets. Planets that were in the path of the Tyranids. he did it to deny the hive mind biomass. Much like firefighters will burn a strip of forest to deny a forest fire fuel, or how chemotherapy kills a whole bunch of cells so that the cancer will die.

And it worked. The Hive fleets were forced to turn away as there was no biomass to consume. Killing billions to save trillions. That is the tragedy of the Imperium.

Yeah except he coulda just know EVACUATED THE fething PLANETS!!! You know that is a thing you can do right?

If krieg is your example of the imperium being good then I don’t know what to say. You’d make an excellent inquisitor I guess.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
Ok first of all the Tau human worlds arnt Slave colonys. By all accounts they are treated BETTER under the Tau then they were under the Imperium. And have more freedom to boot. The tau allow you to worship whoever the feth you want as long as it doesnt contradict the greator good. There are humans in thr Tau empire who still worships the God Emperor.

By all accounts, Comrade Stalin treats us all very well and Soviet Union is happy place, yes!

Who's going and conducting in-depth interviews with the Gue'vesa?

chimera0205 wrote:
As for the Black Templars being Able to wipe out the Tau thats also inaccurate. Thr tau while small in number have a average quality surpassing that of every faction bar the Eldar and Necrons. A Crisis battlesuit is often depicted as on par with a space marine and the tau have far more Crisis battlesuits then the Black Templars have Space Marines.

Ah, I see the Tau have a propaganda book with BS on par with the Imperial Guardsman's Uplifting Primer.

Tell me, do you know how many Black Templars there are?

Because I don't even think the Black Templars know how many Black Templars there are. That's what makes them a bit scary.

chimera0205 wrote:
As for a better solution. Inproved living conditions, education. Suffering and ignorance attract choas. Interex avoided choas entirely by just yknow Informing its population about the dangers of choas and making sure there populations needs were taken care of. Healthy continent happy people dont feel the NEED to sacrifice there children to the blood god.

By all means, tell me how you're going to do this.

Also, nobility in luxurious and comfortable lifestyles never fall to Chaos, right? It's only the poor and pissed off.

chimera0205 wrote:
As for Exterminatuses a planet that turned away from the Imperium ill do you one better. Inquisitor Kryptman Exterminatus dozens if not hundreds if LOYAL imperium planets. Not choas infected, not genestealer infected, not even turned away. Planets that were still wholly and entirely LOYAL.

I'd like a citation for this, because Inquisitors don't get to waste the Emperor's Currency- other Inquisitors will EAGERLY bring them to heel for this.

All the lore backs up Guevasa having a higher standard of living then your average imperium citizen. Tjats not Tau propaganda. Thats just the lore. Same with the Crisis battlesuits being at least innthe same general league as your average spacemarine. Every single depiction of Tau Imperium battles has crisis suits going toe to toe with Space Marines. Yeah there are some exceptions here and there. Every once in awhile youll have a single named space marine rip apart a dozen Battle Suits like its nothing and every once and a while youll have a Tau battle suit commander by some named tau commander chew a whole squad of space marines up but the general impression of the lore is that Crisis battlesuit more or less equal to a Space marine.

40k is a universe of different brands of awful. Just pick the flavour you like best. I suggest Ork, as it may be brutal, short, and violent, but at least you'll have fun with it.

As for the Tau, I don't know if I'd say they're the "good guys". Even aside from Farsight figuring out "this gak is screwed up" and dipping (or not wanting to "taint" the Tau with his nonconformity, depending on your interpretation), there's also canonical reference to "reeducation camps", which is a real nice way to say they're brainwashing people.

Again: in 40k, all the Factions kinda blow. That's the point.

And yeah, Kryptman DID exterminatus a bunch of planets.

It was the RIGHT thing to do.

Excommunicating him was a knee-jerk reaction, the man should have been made a hero. (I have a theory that what he did made him lose it a little and traumatized him, and so they excommunicated him for that)

What was the other option... evacuate the hive worlds? Put up a "detour" sign in front of the Hive Fleet like Wile E. Coyote? Dedicate billions more to fighting an enemy that wasn't even fully understood, and waste not only lives by materiel and make the Tyranids even STRONGER?

Guys, I'll level with you here.

40k is absurd in a lot of ways. But there's a lot of 'meme lore' for 40k that tends to be inaccurate representations of the actual lore, and people tend to lean on that. You should really dig into more of the books.

Tau are a small little naive race. Yes, in some ways- they might make better allies to mankind than enemies. The Emperor Himself might have said "just ignore them unless they mess with us" if he were around. But considering that the Great Crusade involved finding what was once MASSIVE human civilizations reduced to nothing but ashes with some Xenos pricks standing over the remains... it's hard to blame the Imperium for Xenophobia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
All the lore backs up Guevasa having a higher standard of living then your average imperium citizen. Tjats not Tau propaganda. Thats just the lore. Same with the Crisis battlesuits being at least innthe same general league as your average spacemarine. Every single depiction of Tau Imperium battles has crisis suits going toe to toe with Space Marines. Yeah there are some exceptions here and there. Every once in awhile youll have a single named space marine rip apart a dozen Battle Suits like its nothing and every once and a while youll have a Tau battle suit commander by some named tau commander chew a whole squad of space marines up but the general impression of the lore is that Crisis battlesuit more or less equal to a Space marine.

"all of the lore" except that part about them going into re-education camps, diminishing their individual rights, and using them until their usefulness has diminished and then disposing of them. Maybe that weird meme lore on the internet says different, I don't know.

So, how many crisis battlesuits are in each Tau... what do they call their Companies... infestations? Herds? Coagulations? Whatever their units are broken down as.

Unless your answer is "All of them", then they're pretty much screwed when going up against thousands of Marines, especially the really pissed off ones that like get close and ram chainswords into that stupid little tau head-slot.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
And yeah, Kryptman DID exterminatus a bunch of planets.

It was the RIGHT thing to do.

Excommunicating him was a knee-jerk reaction, the man should have been made a hero. (I have a theory that what he did made him lose it a little and traumatized him, and so they excommunicated him for that)

What was the other option... evacuate the hive worlds? Put up a "detour" sign in front of the Hive Fleet like Wile E. Coyote? Dedicate billions more to fighting an enemy that wasn't even fully understood, and waste not only lives by materiel and make the Tyranids even STRONGER?

Guys, I'll level with you here.

40k is absurd in a lot of ways. But there's a lot of 'meme lore' for 40k that tends to be inaccurate representations of the actual lore, and people tend to lean on that. You should really dig into more of the books.

Tau are a small little naive race. Yes, in some ways- they might make better allies to mankind than enemies. The Emperor Himself might have said "just ignore them unless they mess with us" if he were around. But considering that the Great Crusade involved finding what was once MASSIVE human civilizations reduced to nothing but ashes with some Xenos pricks standing over the remains... it's hard to blame the Imperium for Xenophobia.

YES EVACUATE THE PLANETS! Thats a thing you can do. Yeah sure youd never ever be able to even get close to evacuating everyone but there is litterally no reason whatsoever you cant have on going planetary evacuations until litterally the moment the Tyranids jump in system THEN nuke the planet. The fact that not even an ATTEMPT at evacuation was made is whats fuckef up. Evacuating planets is like standard operatiing procedure for other scifi civilizations in much much more dire straights then the Imperium. Like the UNSC from halo. Hell the UNSC doesnt even have the luxury of a couple days warning as unlike in 40k ships dont have to appear in the outskirts of system then trabel sub light to the planet like in 40k. Tjey van just jump right inyo the planets orbit yet the UNSC still manages somewhat succusful evacuations on the regular. There is NO excuse for Kyrptman not even ATTEMPTING to evacuate any of the LOYAL planets he blew up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
And yeah, Kryptman DID exterminatus a bunch of planets.

It was the RIGHT thing to do.

Excommunicating him was a knee-jerk reaction, the man should have been made a hero. (I have a theory that what he did made him lose it a little and traumatized him, and so they excommunicated him for that)

What was the other option... evacuate the hive worlds? Put up a "detour" sign in front of the Hive Fleet like Wile E. Coyote? Dedicate billions more to fighting an enemy that wasn't even fully understood, and waste not only lives by materiel and make the Tyranids even STRONGER?

Guys, I'll level with you here.

40k is absurd in a lot of ways. But there's a lot of 'meme lore' for 40k that tends to be inaccurate representations of the actual lore, and people tend to lean on that. You should really dig into more of the books.

Tau are a small little naive race. Yes, in some ways- they might make better allies to mankind than enemies. The Emperor Himself might have said "just ignore them unless they mess with us" if he were around. But considering that the Great Crusade involved finding what was once MASSIVE human civilizations reduced to nothing but ashes with some Xenos pricks standing over the remains... it's hard to blame the Imperium for Xenophobia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
All the lore backs up Guevasa having a higher standard of living then your average imperium citizen. Tjats not Tau propaganda. Thats just the lore. Same with the Crisis battlesuits being at least innthe same general league as your average spacemarine. Every single depiction of Tau Imperium battles has crisis suits going toe to toe with Space Marines. Yeah there are some exceptions here and there. Every once in awhile youll have a single named space marine rip apart a dozen Battle Suits like its nothing and every once and a while youll have a Tau battle suit commander by some named tau commander chew a whole squad of space marines up but the general impression of the lore is that Crisis battlesuit more or less equal to a Space marine.

"all of the lore" except that part about them going into re-education camps, diminishing their individual rights, and using them until their usefulness has diminished and then disposing of them. Maybe that weird meme lore on the internet says different, I don't know.

So, how many crisis battlesuits are in each Tau... what do they call their Companies... infestations? Herds? Coagulations? Whatever their units are broken down as.

Unless your answer is "All of them", then they're pretty much screwed when going up against thousands of Marines, especially the really pissed off ones that like get close and ram chainswords into that stupid little tau head-slot.

Are reeducation camps really worse then what the inquisti9nonon gets up to sometimes? Have you never heard of a Servitor? Id rather go to the absolute worst of Tau Reeducation camps then get turned into a fething Servitor. Also what the feth do yoy mean the Tau use then dispose of Guevesa? Where the hell are you pulling that from? The Tau frequently evac human worlds in there empire that are under threat and have recently begun to purposefully move Humans away from the imperium cause they know the Imperium has a bad habit of attacking worlds that turn against it. That's far far more effort then the imperium puts into protecting its civilians.

chimera0205 wrote:
YES EVACUATE THE PLANETS! Thats a thing you can do. Yeah sure youd never ever be able to even get close to evacuating everyone but there is litterally no reason whatsoever you cant have on going planetary evacuations until litterally the moment the Tyranids jump in system THEN nuke the planet. The fact that not even an ATTEMPT at evacuation was made is whats fuckef up. Evacuating planets is like standard operatiing procedure for other scifi civilizations in much much more dire straights then the Imperium. Like the UNSC from halo. Hell the UNSC doesnt even have the luxury of a couple days warning as unlike in 40k ships dont have to appear in the outskirts of system then trabel sub light to the planet like in 40k. Tjey van just jump right inyo the planets orbit yet the UNSC still manages somewhat succusful evacuations on the regular. There is NO excuse for Kyrptman not even ATTEMPTING to evacuate any of the LOYAL planets he blew up.

With what massive vessels will you do that?

Oh, too late. While you were waiting on them to get into the system, there were massive riots when people learned they'd be left behind and now that entire planet is erupting into....

Well, Chaos.

And that's figuratively at first, then literally.

But, at least your heart was in the right place, Governor. But because of that bad decision, you killed billions more and wasted priceless, irreplacable ships. So your heart is in the right place, and your brains are going to be all over the wall.

chimera0205 wrote:
Are reeducation camps really worse then what the inquisti9nonon gets up to sometimes? Have you never heard of a Servitor? Id rather go to the absolute worst of Tau Reeducation camps then get turned into a fething Servitor.

You know, you don't just make someone a servitor because you woke up and saw them and thought their face looked dumb. You -do- realize that they do that to criminals, right?

The things that would get you turned into a servitor, the Tau would just shoot you for. So, that's slightly nicer.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
YES EVACUATE THE PLANETS! Thats a thing you can do. Yeah sure youd never ever be able to even get close to evacuating everyone but there is litterally no reason whatsoever you cant have on going planetary evacuations until litterally the moment the Tyranids jump in system THEN nuke the planet. The fact that not even an ATTEMPT at evacuation was made is whats fuckef up. Evacuating planets is like standard operatiing procedure for other scifi civilizations in much much more dire straights then the Imperium. Like the UNSC from halo. Hell the UNSC doesnt even have the luxury of a couple days warning as unlike in 40k ships dont have to appear in the outskirts of system then trabel sub light to the planet like in 40k. Tjey van just jump right inyo the planets orbit yet the UNSC still manages somewhat succusful evacuations on the regular. There is NO excuse for Kyrptman not even ATTEMPTING to evacuate any of the LOYAL planets he blew up.

With what massive vessels will you do that?

Oh, too late. While you were waiting on them to get into the system, there were massive riots when people learned they'd be left behind and now that entire planet is erupting into....

Well, Chaos.

And that's figuratively at first, then literally.

But, at least your heart was in the right place, Governor. But because of that bad decision, you killed billions more and wasted priceless, irreplacable ships. So your heart is in the right place, and your brains are going to be all over the wall.

chimera0205 wrote:
Are reeducation camps really worse then what the inquisti9nonon gets up to sometimes? Have you never heard of a Servitor? Id rather go to the absolute worst of Tau Reeducation camps then get turned into a fething Servitor.

You know, you don't just make someone a servitor because you woke up and saw them and thought their face looked dumb. You -do- realize that they do that to criminals, right?

The things that would get you turned into a servitor, the Tau would just shoot you for. So, that's slightly nicer.

But thats pure and toltal bs. The tau evacuted SEVERAL planets when they were fighting Hive Fleet Gorgon without any riots or chaos. Everything you say is pure conjecture not basef off the facts at all. Also plenty of people get turned into servitors for litterally no reason. Happens all the fething time.

Tau companies are called cadres with 200 or so troops and supporting vehicles/suits. Each one contains a dozen or more suits of varying sizes. 6 crisis suits seems to be a general minimum but there are also stealth suits, commanders broadsides and riptides. Some cadres are nothing but crisis suits. The number of cadres the tau can deploy is unspecified, so the comparison is unspecified marines vs unspecified tau. But since the tau repelled a crusade without losing a single sept, I’d say the black templars would be hard pressed to take them out.

Also, your unfamiliarity with tau cadres makes me question your authority on the topic of tau.

Edit: to add to this the tau are currently fighting the death guard on the fringe of their territory and haven’t lost yet, so why would the black Templars be more of a threat?

chimera0205 wrote:
But thats pure and toltal bs. The tau evacuted SEVERAL planets when they were fighting Hive Fleet Gorgon without any riots or chaos. Everything you say is pure conjecture not basef off the facts at all. Also plenty of people get turned into servitors for litterally no reason. Happens all the fething time.

The Tau evacuated Hive Cities, or recently-colonized worlds?

There's a huge difference there.

And show me where people get turned into servitors for "literally no reason" (it's actually probably something that requires AT LEAST some falsified charges on paper somewhere).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Also, your unfamiliarity with tau cadres makes me question your authority on the topic of tau.

Well, in the RPG- my Deathwatch Character never bothered to ask the ones that were dead at his feet.

On the actual tabletop, I never bothered to ask the guy what they were called when he realized that I could still kill his stuff without getting into melee and deep-striking. For a long time, I just thought tau units were called "On Ebay as of 8th Edition, want to play Guard instead"

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
But thats pure and toltal bs. The tau evacuted SEVERAL planets when they were fighting Hive Fleet Gorgon without any riots or chaos. Everything you say is pure conjecture not basef off the facts at all. Also plenty of people get turned into servitors for litterally no reason. Happens all the fething time.

The Tau evacuated Hive Cities, or recently-colonized worlds?

There's a huge difference there.

And show me where people get turned into servitors for "literally no reason" (it's actually probably something that requires AT LEAST some falsified charges on paper somewhere).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Also, your unfamiliarity with tau cadres makes me question your authority on the topic of tau.

Well, in the RPG- my Deathwatch Character never bothered to ask the ones that were dead at his feet.

On the actual tabletop, I never bothered to ask the guy what they were called when he realized that I could still kill his stuff without getting into melee and deep-striking. For a long time, I just thought tau units were called "On Ebay as of 8th Edition, want to play Guard instead"

Im starting to think you might not no what the feth your talking about. Your grasp on the lore seems tenious at best given you had no idea what a Tau Fire Warrior Cadre is and you didnt know who Inqusitor Kryptman was.

I do recall someone on att mentioning that the tau did in fact evacuate a hive planet, though he brought it up more to just mock the idea than anything else. Another good one I heard was when the tau apparently took an entire hive planet with just 20 cadres (ie 4000 troops), which is also silly, unless the planet really didn’t care I guess. I want to say it was a Phil Kelly book but I can’t be sure. It’s also just hearsay so take that as you will.

chimera0205 wrote:
Im starting to think you might not no what the feth your talking about. Your grasp on the lore seems tenious at best given you had no idea what a Tau Fire Warrior Cadre is and you didnt know who Inqusitor Kryptman was.

Yeah, I missed the name when you dropped it. For some reason, I thought Karimazov (who would probably exterminatus worlds for no reason, if he could- he seems a bit off).

And I know quite a bit of what I'm talking about, and I'm sorry you don't seem to think I do. Never really spent much time looking at Tau codexes, just understanding them from the FFG RPG's and what other I know about them. I've never lost to them at the tabletop, and they were all the rage a few years ago.

I'd say that your own grasp on the lore might be tenuous, but it's probably more accurate to say that I don't think you're really thinking things through. You do a lot of comparing apples to oranges here.

Evacuating a colony world and evacuating a hive world- or Emperor forbid, a Forge World- is a MUCH different scenario.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
As for a better solution. Inproved living conditions, education. Suffering and ignorance attract choas. Interex avoided choas entirely by just yknow Informing its population about the dangers of choas and making sure there populations needs were taken care of. Healthy continent happy people dont feel the NEED to sacrifice there children to the blood god.

By all means, tell me how you're going to do this.

Also, nobility in luxurious and comfortable lifestyles never fall to Chaos, right? It's only the poor and pissed off.

I think one of central themes of chaos in 40k is that it puts heavy emphasis on the choices we make, the idea that we are ultimately responsible for our actions and if we're not careful, even those considered the greatest can and will be humbled by their flaws. The stories of the primarchs show exactly this, that no matter how great someone may seem we are all flawed and all susceptible to our inner daemons. With this in mind, I feel as though the argument of Tau vs Imperium, who's better is ultimately a misguided question. Humanity are ultimately the only race that is properly fleshed out with emotion, complexity and contradictions in the game, as they're made to represent us how we are in reality.

The chaos gods are all literally manifestations of humanity's worst qualities, the emperor tried to defeat them by suppressing humanity's base and nasty traits, but ultimately failed because these things are an intrinsic part of human nature. The Tau on the other hand are a caricature of Japanese robot pseudo-communists, they're completely divorced from our own reality and are just there to be cool. For human beings this kind of thing is an inapplicable fantasy, as it holds no grounding in the world we actually exist within. To argue if their system is better is a moot point, as the moral given by the imperium of man is that we can be nasty, hypocritical and selfish, yet are also capable of the complete opposite. The Tau empire is full of 2D characters, who're there to be a cool army, their ideology flat out would not work for human beings in the 40k universe

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
Im starting to think you might not no what the feth your talking about. Your grasp on the lore seems tenious at best given you had no idea what a Tau Fire Warrior Cadre is and you didnt know who Inqusitor Kryptman was.

Yeah, I missed the name when you dropped it. For some reason, I thought Karimazov (who would probably exterminatus worlds for no reason, if he could- he seems a bit off).

And I know quite a bit of what I'm talking about, and I'm sorry you don't seem to think I do. Never really spent much time looking at Tau codexes, just understanding them from the FFG RPG's and what other I know about them. I've never lost to them at the tabletop, and they were all the rage a few years ago.

I'd say that your own grasp on the lore might be tenuous, but it's probably more accurate to say that I don't think you're really thinking things through. You do a lot of comparing apples to oranges here.

Evacuating a colony world and evacuating a hive world- or Emperor forbid, a Forge World- is a MUCH different scenario.

Kryptman didnt evacuate ANY of the worlds he blew up. I highly doubt every single one of the dozens or hundreds of worlds he blew up were Hive Worlds. So your point is still moot. The diffrence in difficulty doesnt matter when Kryptman didnt evacuate EITHER.

Also you genuinely believe a SINGLE chapter of space marines can fight off the tau who faught off both an entire Imperial Crusade AND an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet without losing a single one of there major worlds. Are you serisouly gonna suggest that the Black Templars are stronger then an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet?

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I think one of central themes of chaos in 40k is that it puts heavy emphasis on the choices we make, the idea that we are ultimately responsible for our actions and if we're not careful, even those considered the greatest can and will be humbled by their flaws. The stories of the primarchs show exactly this, that no matter how great someone may seem we are all flawed and all susceptible to our inner daemons. With this in mind, I feel as though the argument of Tau vs Imperium, who's better is ultimately a misguided question. Humanity are ultimately the only race that is properly fleshed out with emotion, complexity and contradictions in the game, as they're made to represent us how we are in reality.

I have heard that Chaos is a bit like the Dark Side of the Force- it tends to amplify the worst of our emotions/ideas, it doesn't really place them in our heads. Someone who's obsessed with curing the sick, to the point where he'll harm someone to test it; a freedom fighter who wants to stop oppression, to the point where civilian casualties might be acceptable; a man who loves his wife so much, he'll even steal to ensure she gets what she wants... these people might not be truly evil at first, but they have that little bit of them that'll flex, that one little gap in their 'moral armor' that Chaos can slip into. It's very Lovecraftian in that it needs something to latch onto, in order to take root... and literally no one, no sentient being, can possible be immune to that.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
The Tau on the other hand are a caricature of Japanese robot pseudo-communists, they're completely divorced from our own reality and are just there to be cool. For human beings this kind of thing is an inapplicable fantasy, as it holds no grounding in the world we actually exist within. To argue if their system is better is a moot point, as the moral given by the imperium of man is that we can be nasty, hypocritical and selfish, yet are also capable of the complete opposite. The Tau empire is full of 2D characters, who're there to be a cool army, their ideology flat out would not work for human beings in the 40k universe

I always saw the Tau as kind of a jab at people who snub their nose at the Imperium and say, "Why don't they x, y, z"- because when the Tau encounter actual Chaos, the Tyranids, and meet the Haemonculi- they tend to be slack-jawed and utterly terrified and they're doing everything except saying, "Well, that's why the Imperium are like that, makes perfect sense". Personally, I'd like to see them grow to be a bit more pragmatic and get a bit more of a ruthless streak, based upon their experiences because that naive streak is gonna fade.

chimera0205 wrote:
Kryptman didnt evacuate ANY of the worlds he blew up. I highly doubt every single one of the dozens or hundreds of worlds he blew up were Hive Worlds. So your point is still moot. The diffrence in difficulty doesnt matter when Kryptman didnt evacuate EITHER.

I don't think it was an option, dude. Apples to oranges.

chimera0205 wrote:
Also you genuinely believe a SINGLE chapter of space marines can fight off the tau who faught off both an entire Imperial Crusade AND an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet without losing a single one of there major worlds. Are you serisouly gonna suggest that the Black Templars are stronger then an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet?

Yes.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I think one of central themes of chaos in 40k is that it puts heavy emphasis on the choices we make, the idea that we are ultimately responsible for our actions and if we're not careful, even those considered the greatest can and will be humbled by their flaws. The stories of the primarchs show exactly this, that no matter how great someone may seem we are all flawed and all susceptible to our inner daemons. With this in mind, I feel as though the argument of Tau vs Imperium, who's better is ultimately a misguided question. Humanity are ultimately the only race that is properly fleshed out with emotion, complexity and contradictions in the game, as they're made to represent us how we are in reality.

I have heard that Chaos is a bit like the Dark Side of the Force- it tends to amplify the worst of our emotions/ideas, it doesn't really place them in our heads. Someone who's obsessed with curing the sick, to the point where he'll harm someone to test it; a freedom fighter who wants to stop oppression, to the point where civilian casualties might be acceptable; a man who loves his wife so much, he'll even steal to ensure she gets what she wants... these people might not be truly evil at first, but they have that little bit of them that'll flex, that one little gap in their 'moral armor' that Chaos can slip into. It's very Lovecraftian in that it needs something to latch onto, in order to take root... and literally no one, no sentient being, can possible be immune to that.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
The Tau on the other hand are a caricature of Japanese robot pseudo-communists, they're completely divorced from our own reality and are just there to be cool. For human beings this kind of thing is an inapplicable fantasy, as it holds no grounding in the world we actually exist within. To argue if their system is better is a moot point, as the moral given by the imperium of man is that we can be nasty, hypocritical and selfish, yet are also capable of the complete opposite. The Tau empire is full of 2D characters, who're there to be a cool army, their ideology flat out would not work for human beings in the 40k universe

I always saw the Tau as kind of a jab at people who snub their nose at the Imperium and say, "Why don't they x, y, z"- because when the Tau encounter actual Chaos, the Tyranids, and meet the Haemonculi- they tend to be slack-jawed and utterly terrified and they're doing everything except saying, "Well, that's why the Imperium are like that, makes perfect sense". Personally, I'd like to see them grow to be a bit more pragmatic and get a bit more of a ruthless streak, based upon their experiences because that naive streak is gonna fade.

chimera0205 wrote:
Kryptman didnt evacuate ANY of the worlds he blew up. I highly doubt every single one of the dozens or hundreds of worlds he blew up were Hive Worlds. So your point is still moot. The diffrence in difficulty doesnt matter when Kryptman didnt evacuate EITHER.

I don't think it was an option, dude. Apples to oranges.

chimera0205 wrote:
Also you genuinely believe a SINGLE chapter of space marines can fight off the tau who faught off both an entire Imperial Crusade AND an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet without losing a single one of there major worlds. Are you serisouly gonna suggest that the Black Templars are stronger then an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet?

Yes.

Why wouldn't it be an option?

Also if a single SpaceMarine Chaprer is equal to a Hive Fleet like you claim then WHY THE feth DID TJEY EVEN NEED TO EXTERMINATUS DOZENS OF PLANETS WHEN THEY COULFADA JUST THROWN THE BLACK TEMPLARS AT THE HIVE FLEET? HUH? Your statements are self contradicting!

chimera0205 wrote:
Why wouldn't it be an option?

Find ships that can do this.

Convince them to come to a system about to be eaten by angry bugs.

Magically filter out any potential Genestealer-tainted evacuees.

Load these people in an orderly manner without absolute chaos (literal and figurative) breaking out

Dedicate military manpower to ensuring this happens safely

Do this in time

chimera0205 wrote:
Also if a single SpaceMarine Chaprer is equal to a Hive Fleet like you claim then WHY THE feth DID TJEY EVEN NEED TO EXTERMINATUS DOZENS OF PLANETS WHEN THEY COULFADA JUST THROWN THE BLACK TEMPLARS AT THE HIVE FLEET? HUH? Your statements are self contradicting!

Calling the Black Templars "a single space marine chapter" is like calling Gazprom's Fund for Supporting Social Initiatives (an 8,000+ member Russian Orchestra, the largest in recorded history) just "a band".

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
Why wouldn't it be an option?

Find ships that can do this.

Convince them to come to a system about to be eaten by angry bugs.

Magically filter out any potential Genestealer-tainted evacuees.

Load these people in an orderly manner without absolute chaos (literal and figurative) breaking out

Dedicate military manpower to ensuring this happens safely

Do this in time

chimera0205 wrote:
Also if a single SpaceMarine Chaprer is equal to a Hive Fleet like you claim then WHY THE feth DID TJEY EVEN NEED TO EXTERMINATUS DOZENS OF PLANETS WHEN THEY COULFADA JUST THROWN THE BLACK TEMPLARS AT THE HIVE FLEET? HUH? Your statements are self contradicting!

Calling the Black Templars "a single space marine chapter" is like calling Gazprom's Fund for Supporting Social Initiatives (an 8,000+ member Russian Orchestra, the largest in recorded history) just "a band".

Oh you mean all those things that a a much smaller empire with much less resources managed just fine? Cause once again the tau have evacuated numerous worlds succusfully against a variety if threats in the lore.

No matter how big a chapter they still arnt as a strong as an entre Tyranid Hive Fleet. Your showing utterly rediclous levels of imperium waank. Id bet even an entire Space Marine LEGION of the days of old would struggle agaist a hive fleet.

How many BT do you think there are? I’ve heard they’re somewhere in the range of 6000 total, but it’s not specified. The Damocles gulf crusade had 5 marine companies 19 regiments and a titan legion and was stopped at the first major tau sept. The tau had only mobilized the local Dal’yth forces too.

chimera0205 wrote:
Oh you mean all those things that a a much smaller empire with much less resources managed just fine? Cause once again the tau have evacuated numerous worlds succusfully against a variety if threats in the lore.

Okay, let me patiently help you. I can tell that you REALLY like your faction a lot, and nearly all of us do. But part of being a 40k lore/game/hobby fan is knowing where your own faction can be absurd. You're being extremely rude, to the point where I feel like I need to remind you that these are plastic space war toys and not real people, events, or organizations. I know that sounds harsh, but you need to tone it down. And to put it more bluntly, many Tau players already have a negative stereotype about them- so don't make it worse for the other guys, okay?

To engage this:

Size of the empire is irrelevant. Remember that the Tau are more consolidated into a smaller area, and support is much closer. And the population density of those worlds is MUCH smaller than an Imperial hive world.

Also, reminder that Genestealer Cults on a hive world are connected to a hive fleet. The Patriarch can communicate with that big swarm. Evacuations would take possibly decades, so the Patriarch would be aware. Why would you risk them tipping off the hive fleet so it redirects, when you can bring it in and force them to be 'stranded' without biomass? You're baiting them in closer, and then taking away the very resource they need to continue- to force them down a more desired path.

chimera0205 wrote:
No matter how big a chapter they still arnt as a strong as an entre Tyranid Hive Fleet. Your showing utterly rediclous levels of imperium spank next. Id bet even an entire Space Marine LEGION of the days of old would struggle agaist a hive fleet.

LOL okay sure. Two Regiments of the Imperial Guard, the Ultramarines and Mortifactors Chapters of Astartes, and a Deathwatch Kill-team managed to beat a good half of that hive fleet. Now, when we're talking ~5000 Astartes that now know much more about the Tyranids? Yeah, the odds are looking pretty solid.

You don't have to wipe out the hive fleet. You just have to attrit them to the point where they expend more biomass than they can accumulate during the invasion. This worked on the Necrons/C'Tan, in a way.

Also, Grimaldus once at a Hive Tyrant. Later on, he walked right up to an Etherial and pooped out an Ambull at his feet.

To be fair, the Legions of Olde had a significant amount of plot armor. According to fluff, the Imperium was basically unstoppable in its heyday. I'm not really an expert at 40k lore, but I'm pretty sure a Golden Age Legion would be able to "wipe the floor" with a Hive Fleet.

Dandelion wrote:
How many BT do you think there are? I’ve heard they’re somewhere in the range of 6000 total, but it’s not specified. The Damocles gulf crusade had 5 marine companies 19 regiments and a titan legion and was stopped at the first major tau sept. The tau had only mobilized the local Dal’yth forces too.

I have no idea how many Black Templars there are, and I don't think anyone does. The truth is, they spread themselves out doing multiple crusades, so the number could be absurd but it'd be irrelevant because their Fighting Companies are roughly the size of a Chapter.

And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the Damocles Gulf crusade where things abruptly halted because an actual threat (Tyranids) showed up and the Imperium decided to stop playing with the blueberries to go squash bugs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, the Legions of Olde had a significant amount of plot armor. According to fluff, the Imperium was basically unstoppable in its heyday. I'm not really an expert at 40k lore, but I'm pretty sure a Golden Age Legion would be able to "wipe the floor" with a Hive Fleet.

I wouldn't even say that the Imperium's Legiones Astartes would be the only factor. Remember, the Mechanicum was digging up some pretty nasty archeotech and throwing it around, the Knights and other titans were in greater numbers and had crazier weapons, and even the Solar Auxilla troops were better armed and equipped.

Also, there was an Angron around.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
How many BT do you think there are? I’ve heard they’re somewhere in the range of 6000 total, but it’s not specified. The Damocles gulf crusade had 5 marine companies 19 regiments and a titan legion and was stopped at the first major tau sept. The tau had only mobilized the local Dal’yth forces too.

I have no idea how many Black Templars there are, and I don't think anyone does. The truth is, they spread themselves out doing multiple crusades, so the number could be absurd but it'd be irrelevant because their Fighting Companies are roughly the size of a Chapter.

And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the Damocles Gulf crusade where things abruptly halted because an actual threat (Tyranids) showed up and the Imperium decided to stop playing with the blueberries to go squash bugs?

Yes and no. The Tau were basically Stalling the Imperium completely on the ground and if they had decided to fight to the end that battle lilely would have gone on in definitely but the imperium decided thag fighting the Tau in an enending forever battle wasnt fething worth it and just fethed off to go fight bugs.

TBH I think the sides in this debate come down to this: some people would rather their masters be the same species as them no matter how badly they are treated as long as their species remained dominant over all others while others would be willing to be a slaves to another species so long as their individual lives were relatively safe and comfortable.

 Manchu wrote:
TBH I think the sides in this debate come down to this: some people would rather their masters be the same species as them no matter how badly they are treated as long as their species remained dominant over all others while others would be willing to be a slaves to another species so long as their individual lives were relatively safe and comfortable.

You say this but I'm okay being a sex slave to a big-tiddied alien lady. She can even call me names and hit me sometimes, I'll even pretend it bothers me in front of the other aliens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
Yes and no. The Tau were basically Stalling the Imperium completely on the ground and if they had decided to fight to the end that battle lilely would have gone on in definitely but the imperium decided thag fighting the Tau in an enending forever battle wasnt fething worth it and just fethed off to go fight bugs.

Basically, this is the 40k lore equivalent of "if coach would have put me in, we could have gone all the way to the State Championships and i could be in the NFL right now". Speculation, and we may never know.