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I think the supplements will turn out to be a financial mistake for GW.

People online are furious. Even on their Facebook page. This forum is known for it's negativity, so here it's somewhat expected, but when it's prevalent all over the place, there is a problem.

Only SM players are "happy" with these supplements and the more generous rules in Faith and Fury. And even they are becoming sick of having to carry so many books to play their faction (cry me a river). GW have really, really fethed up this PA release and the supplements play a part in the reason we see this related negativity.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think the supplements will turn out to be a financial mistake for GW.

People online are furious. Even on their Facebook page. This forum is known for it's negativity, so here it's somewhat expected, but when it's prevalent all over the place, there is a problem.

Only SM players are "happy" with these supplements and the more generous rules in Faith and Fury. And even they are becoming sick of having to carry so many books to play their faction (cry me a river). GW have really, really fethed up this PA release and the supplements play a part in the reason we see this related negativity.

The guy in our play group who plays Orks has already bought an SM army so that he can actually put something competitive on the table. Sadly, I'm 30 years into my toxic relationship with Chaos, so I'm vacillating between lighting them on fire, selling them on eBay or just storing them in the basement.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
The guy in our play group who plays Orks has already bought an SM army so that he can actually put something competitive on the table. Sadly, I'm 30 years into my toxic relationship with Chaos, so I'm vacillating between lighting them on fire, selling them on eBay or just storing them in the basement.

Out of curiosity, how are the factions represented in your group? Does he only have Space Marines to play against?

The Newman wrote:
If you're deploying 6" back to avoid the Aggressors and your opponent isn't using the other UM strat to redeploy them he's playing them wrong, and you're also giving up objectives.

Also, the Raven Guard version of that trick has a 37" threat range, so there's that too.

The ravengaurd version can't move and shoot twice. So it's basically the same thing except with an advance roll on your scout move and they can't go into the tactical doctrine for ap-1. Plus - they have been able to do this since for the beging if time. They used to be able to infiltrate with them and it was mildy okay but ap-0 is pretty effing worthless. Agressors really aren't good man. An Ironhands punisher siciarian is much better choice and you don't see those dominating the meta ether.


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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think the supplements will turn out to be a financial mistake for GW.

People online are furious. Even on their Facebook page. This forum is known for it's negativity, so here it's somewhat expected, but when it's prevalent all over the place, there is a problem.

Only SM players are "happy" with these supplements and the more generous rules in Faith and Fury. And even they are becoming sick of having to carry so many books to play their faction (cry me a river). GW have really, really fethed up this PA release and the supplements play a part in the reason we see this related negativity.

The guy in our play group who plays Orks has already bought an SM army so that he can actually put something competitive on the table. Sadly, I'm 30 years into my toxic relationship with Chaos, so I'm vacillating between lighting them on fire, selling them on eBay or just storing them in the basement.

Orks are one of the few armies that can compete with marines.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Out of curiosity, how are the factions represented in your group? Does he only have Space Marines to play against?

No, not at all. But he wants to play in some tournaments and currently Orks get shredded by <insert chapter here>.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Orks are one of the few armies that can compete with marines.

No, they're not. They have one of, if not THE worst win rate against them. Please stop commenting about things that you have no knowledge of.

From my point of view, the bigger issue is that the core rules for 8th edition are paper-thin.

Hence, there's really very little you can do outside of just dumping rules upon rules upon rules.

Not that I'm defending the godawful SM supplements. Rather, GW basically wrote themselves into a corner right from the start by making a shallow, one-dimensional game that is wholly reliant on gimmicks and endless special rules to keep up any pretence of complexity.

Spoletta wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
There are surely a lot of things that could have been done better with the supplements, like being able to claim the advantages of a particular doctrine only once per game.

One thing that i'm quite happy with though, is that they made all marine chapters into full factions.

Now about 50% of the game's factions are marines of some flavour (14 in total, without counting FW or minor ones like CFs and Blood Ravens). Considering that they are the image of the game, having most of the games centered around them feels right.

Now at the table you either play against marines or against one of the many others threats of the galaxy. Somehow i like this.

I honestly thought this was a joke post. Are you serious?

Quite.
I know that it comes out as a bit strange, but I play the factions I play because I want to play the NPCs. Until now the so called "main characters" were nowhere to be seen, and it felt wrong. Yes, it was a huge shift in balance, but in terms of "feel" I like it better this way.

I can't . . . I don't . . .

I mean, a lot of people really like their chosen factions and don't think of them as simply targets for Space Marines. Tyranids and Necrons I can understand that a bit, but Eldar, Tau, Chaos and Orks? Those are factions with lots of personality and flavor to love as a primary interest/touchstone into the hobby. There are good stories to be told in the universe that don't involve Space Marines.

I love me my Space Marines and all, but seriously suggesting all other factions are appropriately relegated to NPCs is awful, imo. I'd much prefer more variation and texture in my 40K setting.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think the supplements will turn out to be a financial mistake for GW.

People online are furious. Even on their Facebook page. This forum is known for it's negativity, so here it's somewhat expected, but when it's prevalent all over the place, there is a problem.

Only SM players are "happy" with these supplements and the more generous rules in Faith and Fury. And even they are becoming sick of having to carry so many books to play their faction (cry me a river). GW have really, really fethed up this PA release and the supplements play a part in the reason we see this related negativity.

I'm furious with the Supplements as a Marine player, as Super Doctrines should never have been a thing.

Also you can blame the people that support the Angels having separate codices. They keep defending GW in releasing unnecessary printed material, so what else are they gonna do with other Chapters? You guessed it: release unnecessary printed material!

 vipoid wrote:
From my point of view, the bigger issue is that the core rules for 8th edition are paper-thin.

Hence, there's really very little you can do outside of just dumping rules upon rules upon rules.

Not that I'm defending the godawful SM supplements. Rather, GW basically wrote themselves into a corner right from the start by making a shallow, one-dimensional game that is wholly reliant on gimmicks and endless special rules to keep up any pretence of complexity.

I sorta disagree. Imo the game would function pretty well after dropping super-special rules and Stratagem mechanics. Then all you need is appropriate terrain/better terrain rules and you have something pretty solid.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Orks are one of the few armies that can compete with marines.

No, they're not. They have one of, if not THE worst win rate against them. Please stop commenting about things that you have no knowledge of.

Popped into my local FLGS the other day and the owner was telling me about the game he had recently against the Ork player there. He wiped him out to a man and the amount of models he lost you can count on one hand. He was using DE. The guy is one the least competitive people I've ever met and he just felt sorry for the Ork player. Nuff said.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think the supplements will turn out to be a financial mistake for GW.

People online are furious. Even on their Facebook page. This forum is known for it's negativity, so here it's somewhat expected, but when it's prevalent all over the place, there is a problem.

Only SM players are "happy" with these supplements and the more generous rules in Faith and Fury. And even they are becoming sick of having to carry so many books to play their faction (cry me a river). GW have really, really fethed up this PA release and the supplements play a part in the reason we see this related negativity.

I'll say this. I am happy with my supplement with chapter specific lore and such, I'm sure everyone would say something similar. However given the recent "space marine why you need faith and Fury" article which showcases essentially a bunch of things that simply could have been crammed into the V2 codex. I'd give it a pass if it came out half a year later but it didn't....

So I'm not really mad but I'm not impressed with this decision

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Orks are one of the few armies that can compete with marines.

No, they're not. They have one of, if not THE worst win rate against them. Please stop commenting about things that you have no knowledge of.

Right...because an army that has blanket 5++ saves really cares about -1 AP being handed out for free. They don't.

Please stop assuming you are smarter than me. You know...Orks are still one of the top placing armies...how is that possible in a marine dominated meta?

Ork Artillery armies can obliterate marines. Why? Marines dont have invune saves for the most part and orks have stupid amounts of ap-4 and 5 shooting attacks that deal d6 damage. Even with nu marines coming out the smasha gun is still a top tier choice. Don't even get me started about SAG.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think the supplements will turn out to be a financial mistake for GW.

People online are furious. Even on their Facebook page. This forum is known for it's negativity, so here it's somewhat expected, but when it's prevalent all over the place, there is a problem.

Only SM players are "happy" with these supplements and the more generous rules in Faith and Fury. And even they are becoming sick of having to carry so many books to play their faction (cry me a river). GW have really, really fethed up this PA release and the supplements play a part in the reason we see this related negativity.

I'm furious with the Supplements as a Marine player, as Super Doctrines should never have been a thing.

Also you can blame the people that support the Angels having separate codices. They keep defending GW in releasing unnecessary printed material, so what else are they gonna do with other Chapters? You guessed it: release unnecessary printed material!

I agree it is unnecessary but it's also a huge cash cow for GW. It's not going anywhere.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Right...because an army that has blanket 5++ saves really cares about -1 AP being handed out for free. They don't.

Please stop assuming you are smarter than me. You know...Orks are still one of the top placing armies...how is that possible in a marine dominated meta?

They're still sitting at a sub-50% win rate over the past couple months though.

Once you dig into the numbers, that win rate against Adeptus Astartes is down to ~33%, this is also the matchup with the largest data set, go figure.

Once you factor in non-SM opponents their percentages definitely go up, but the data set is a fraction of the SM data set:
80% win rate vs BA
80% win rate vs Daemons
70% win rate vs CSM
70% win rate vs GSC
68% win rate vs DE
77% win rate vs RK
69% win rate vs IK

So is it hopeless? Of course not, you might cruise through a tourney and get a lot of favorable matchups, but eventually SM is going to come to collect.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Right...because an army that has blanket 5++ saves really cares about -1 AP being handed out for free. They don't.

Please stop assuming you are smarter than me. You know...Orks are still one of the top placing armies...how is that possible in a marine dominated meta?

They're still sitting at a sub-50% win rate over the past couple months though.

Once you dig into the numbers, that win rate against Adeptus Astartes is down to ~33%, this is also the matchup with the largest data set, go figure.

Once you factor in non-SM opponents their percentages definitely go up, but the data set is a fraction of the SM data set:
80% win rate vs BA
80% win rate vs Daemons
70% win rate vs CSM
70% win rate vs GSC
68% win rate vs DE
77% win rate vs RK
69% win rate vs IK

So is it hopeless? Of course not, you might cruise through a tourney and get a lot of favorable matchups, but eventually SM is going to come to collect.

This really makes me want to play an anti MEQ CWE list. Spam WG and auto win.

Blanket 5++ saves lmao xeno you're a riot

IMO, the rules in the PA books and Vigilus books are for Narrative play only and have no place in Matched play.

I have to believe that if the majority of people agreed with me on this point there would be zero complaints.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
From my point of view, the bigger issue is that the core rules for 8th edition are paper-thin.

Hence, there's really very little you can do outside of just dumping rules upon rules upon rules.

Not that I'm defending the godawful SM supplements. Rather, GW basically wrote themselves into a corner right from the start by making a shallow, one-dimensional game that is wholly reliant on gimmicks and endless special rules to keep up any pretence of complexity.

I sorta disagree. Imo the game would function pretty well after dropping super-special rules and Stratagem mechanics. Then all you need is appropriate terrain/better terrain rules and you have something pretty solid.

I have to disagree.

It would would be technically functional but lacking in depth, lacking in unique mechanics, and lacking in just about anything that could be expanded on by individual armies.

I think the best way of describing it would be that it feels like free/basic rules that new players can use to get an idea of the game before they buy the full rules. Except that these are the full rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This really makes me want to play an anti MEQ CWE list. Spam WG and auto win.

I feel like if that was going to happen, it would have by now. But hey, if you have the models to walk the walk, go for it.

text removed.
Reds8n

Come to think of it, I haven't seen that many Craftworld lists placing in recent tournaments. No speculation, just an observation.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Blanket 5++ saves lmao xeno you're a riot

ADJECTIVE
covering all cases or instances; total and inclusive.

That is all I mean by blanket. A 9" aura is like a blanket. Doctrines do very little against an ork army utilizing KFF. ESP with the 18" stratagem.

the_scotsman wrote:


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Quasistellar wrote:
They absolutely weren’t a mistake in concept, but they’re clearly a smidge too strong.

Space marines were pretty terrible before and they just went a bit too far with some of the doctrines to compensate.

I hope you make a note for yourself to never again complain about any new rules released into the game as broken if you're calling this supplement release that completely demolished the competitive meta as a smidge too strong.

Oh please spare me. The doctrines/super doctrines are just too much free power is all. The supplements as a concept are fine and are great for giving the chapters more flavor.

So much hyperbole by the same usual suspects over and over and over.

What’s more concerning than the buffs Marines keep getting lately is the distinct lack of love for the other factions. The Phoenix Rising book was, frankly, insulting when compared to what’s coming in faith and fury. And I’ll go on record that having Space Marines get these new faith and fury character upgrades so soon after the codex and before other factions get love IS a mistake. The timing I mean. Again, the concept is cool and fluffy, but the execution is really messed up!

You know, I wonder if the timing of these Psychic Awakening books relative to the SM Codex and Supplements got messed up somehow due to some issues we don’t know about. Releasing these things in this order and so close together just seems really strange. And something like the Ironstone with Feirros and double heals combined with that IH doctrine was clearly overpowered. Was there some weird delay in play testing? Did books get printed too quickly before proper testing was complete? Was the new codex/supplements meant to release after Psychic Awakening and Chapter Approved? Was Psychic Awakening delayed so they had to release marines sooner? The whole situation seems really weird.

We know there was printing delay issues regarding the Sylvaneth release, and we’ve seen the packaging mistakes for the white scars/salamanders dice. I wonder if there was more supply chain and production issues than we know?

Or maybe GW really are just dumb? Incompetent? Occam’s Razor?

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is all I mean by blanket. A 9" aura is like a blanket. Doctrines do very little against an ork army utilizing KFF. ESP with the 18" stratagem.

RG smoke the Big Mek on turn 2 like clockwork, he's toast. So, again, it's very matchup dependent. Honestly, Eliminators in general put a woop on the Big Mek. You can put it on a Morkanaut, but then you're counting on it surviving first turn devastator doctrine alpha strike, also probably dead.

RG in general just utterly dismantle Orks. KFF is also very particular, models have to be entirely within the bubble, not touching it, so if you start putting any vehicles, artillery or anything bigger than Boyz in there you run out of space very quickly.

Also, it's a 5++, it still fails more than it succeeds.

Quasistellar wrote:
What’s more concerning than the buffs Marines keep getting lately is the distinct lack of love for the other factions.

It’s probably due to the fact there aren’t things like Primaris Death Company. GW is going full tilt on replacing everything previous and rules are the incentive.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is all I mean by blanket. A 9" aura is like a blanket. Doctrines do very little against an ork army utilizing KFF. ESP with the 18" stratagem.

RG smoke the Big Mek on turn 2 like clockwork, he's toast. So, again, it's very matchup dependent. Honestly, Eliminators in general put a woop on the Big Mek. You can put it on a Morkanaut, but then you're counting on it surviving first turn devastator doctrine alpha strike, also probably dead.

RG in general just utterly dismantle Orks. KFF is also very particular, models have to be entirely within the bubble, not touching it, so if you start putting any vehicles, artillery or anything bigger than Boyz in there you run out of space very quickly.

Also, it's a 5++, it still fails more than it succeeds.

Ork armies are typically brining like 80+ Gretchen. Snipers get shut down by Gretchen. Plus they can just hide it and they can heal up against the ILOS shots. Don't get me wrong - eliminators are very good - they also get olbiterated by smasha guns. The point here is that marines get a lot of free AP from their new rules and also close combat power. It doesn't help you one bit in a gunline fight against invune saves.

T8 is really good too. Stalker Bolt Rifles are terrible when they wound on a 6+.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ork armies are typically brining like 80+ Gretchen. Snipers get shut down by Gretchen. Plus they can just hide it and they can heal up against the ILOS shots. Don't get me wrong - eliminators are very good - they also get olbiterated by smasha guns. The point here is that marines get a lot of free AP from their new rules and also close combat power. It doesn't help you one bit in a gunline fight against invune saves.

Ok, so the Grot Shields strat has a 6" range. What are you stacking under your KFF Xeno? Because right now it sounds like you've got a Big Mek and a bunch of Grots. The Grots have to be between the target and the shooter also, so orientation is very important. So you're stacking 3 full 30 man squads of Gretchin in front of your Big Mek? Let's assume you do some janky daisy chain crap so you can squeeze a few other thing under the bubble though. It's pretty easy to make the Ork player burn Grot Shields on something else, and if they don't, you're methodically dismantling their entire HQ, at which point, keep your Big Mek, enjoy.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is all I mean by blanket. A 9" aura is like a blanket. Doctrines do very little against an ork army utilizing KFF. ESP with the 18" stratagem.

RG smoke the Big Mek on turn 2 like clockwork, he's toast. So, again, it's very matchup dependent. Honestly, Eliminators in general put a woop on the Big Mek. You can put it on a Morkanaut, but then you're counting on it surviving first turn devastator doctrine alpha strike, also probably dead.

RG in general just utterly dismantle Orks. KFF is also very particular, models have to be entirely within the bubble, not touching it, so if you start putting any vehicles, artillery or anything bigger than Boyz in there you run out of space very quickly.

Also, it's a 5++, it still fails more than it succeeds.

Ork armies are typically brining like 80+ Gretchen. Snipers get shut down by Gretchen. Plus they can just hide it and they can heal up against the ILOS shots. Don't get me wrong - eliminators are very good - they also get olbiterated by smasha guns. The point here is that marines get a lot of free AP from their new rules and also close combat power. It doesn't help you one bit in a gunline fight against invune saves.

Xenomancer oh divine ork strategist please bless me with your infinite wisdom. How does one tiny little green booger stop eliminators or snipers?

> Eliminators target characters ignoring terrain OMEGAPOG


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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ork armies are typically brining like 80+ Gretchen. Snipers get shut down by Gretchen. Plus they can just hide it and they can heal up against the ILOS shots. Don't get me wrong - eliminators are very good - they also get olbiterated by smasha guns. The point here is that marines get a lot of free AP from their new rules and also close combat power. It doesn't help you one bit in a gunline fight against invune saves.

Ok, so the Grot Shields strat has a 6" range. What are you stacking under your KFF Xeno? Because right now it sounds like you've got a Big Mek and a bunch of Grots. The Grots have to be between the target and the shooter also, so orientation is very important. So you're stacking 3 full 30 man squads of Gretchin in front of your Big Mek? Let's assume you do some janky daisy chain crap so you can squeeze a few other thing under the bubble though. It's pretty easy to make the Ork player burn Grot Shields on something else, and if they don't, you're methodically dismantling their entire HQ, at which point, keep your Big Mek, enjoy.

iirc KFF requires the WHOLE unit to be within range. So congrats, you bait out grot shields against the big mech. Now you can go kill the SSAG gits with your S8 d3 weapons or whatever degree of unfairness they are.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
iirc KFF requires the WHOLE unit to be within range. So congrats, you bait out grot shields against the big mech. Now you can go kill the SSAG gits with your S8 d3 weapons or whatever degree of unfairness they are.

Oh you're right, I forgot that, the unit has to be under, not the model. Yeah, no daisy chain, so currently, Xeno has a Big Mek and a truckload of Grots under the KFF, I think I'd safely ignore that castle.