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BrianDavion wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
As long as knights don't get doctrine-esque buffs I'm ok with that.

even if they did you'd never see them in use. Doctrines only come into play if you're running a pure army. how many people do you figure run pure knights?

You get doctrines for running a single chapter detachments. You just dont get extension if youre not single chapter army.

I think it’s too early to call if whether or not marines are a mistake from GW’s perspective. Obviously the supplements are OP, but I’m reasonably certain that was GW’s intent from the very beginning. From their side they invested a ton in the new primarous line, only to not sell a lot because the original codex was weak. So make a newer version that is clearly strong (even if that means brushing off play tester concerns) to clear excessive space marine inventory and sell the new models. Space marines are top of the meta for a while, but then we get to the spring where space marines can get nerfed after GW’s sold the majority of product.

Juries out on whether this is a good idea though. First off is this will likely detour people from buying other armies new product (new chaos sorcerer, eldar box set. Ect) second is people are buying less non-marine armies stuff in general, not a huge deal but a factor non the less. Finally there’s a loss of public perception. As many posters have pointed out many communities are not happy with what happened with marines. This could mean some people will quite, but the bigger impact is of people slowing down their spending. “Oh I was going to start a GSC army, but now that Maries are so good I’ll just stick to tau.” And “I was going to try to play 40k more competitively, but I’d rather not just play marines so I’ll just keep what I have and continue to play casually.” This factor is the hardest to quantify, as GW won’t know the full impact of this until a couple of years pass.

So overall the supplements could have been a mistake, but just because it’s negatively impacting us non-marine players doesn’t mean it’s a mistake from GW’s perspective.

Gigantic mistake. But they did the same thing and killed 7th. So here's hoping they just reboot into 9th and scrap all this.

Any news on what GW's next big move is?

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Any news on what GW's next big move is?

It seems they're pretty much trying to squat all the other armies in the game so it's just 30K 2.0.

So I'm going with...More Marine stuff, then after that, more marines, followed by more marines, then maybe one Xenos model to let the White Knights have something to go "SeE tHEy dOnT OnLy Do MArinES!"

Followed by a new Marine thing.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Any news on what GW's next big move is?

It seems they're pretty much trying to squat all the other armies in the game so it's just 30K 2.0.

So I'm going with...More Marine stuff, then after that, more marines, followed by more marines, then maybe one Xenos model to let the White Knights have something to go "SeE tHEy dOnT OnLy Do MArinES!"

Followed by a new Marine thing.

That's a bald-faced lie and you know it!

GW is obviously going to keep releasing new xenos otherwise us marine players will run out of exotic enemies to job in the novels!

You can only slap Chaos around for so long before the taste becomes too one note.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Any news on what GW's next big move is?

It seems they're pretty much trying to squat all the other armies in the game so it's just 30K 2.0.

So I'm going with...More Marine stuff, then after that, more marines, followed by more marines, then maybe one Xenos model to let the White Knights have something to go "SeE tHEy dOnT OnLy Do MArinES!"

Followed by a new Marine thing.

This is so true it hurts. We’ve already seen the “B b b but Necrons had that one character in that boxed set that one time which is the same as what my [Chapter] has had really!!!!one” argument made by some of the more....creative Marine white knights.

I love the way the community is kicking off on Facebook, it’s about time GW had some feedback about their idiotic release schedule and preference for all things power armour. Hopefully they shelve the next 15 Marine models they were no doubt going to release next year and give Xenos factions a little love. Doubtful, but they can’t claim to be listening to the community otherwise.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Any news on what GW's next big move is?

Not sure about "big" move, but the next PA book is meant to be BA vs. Tyranids - your guess is as good as mine as to how well that turns out, for either faction.

It does sounds like we might be getting Pri-Mephiston, though.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Any news on what GW's next big move is?

Well Sisters of Battle 2 week preorder prior to new army sold out in about a minute and crashed their website so that was a next big thing badly handled.

 Dysartes wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Any news on what GW's next big move is?

Not sure about "big" move, but the next PA book is meant to be BA vs. Tyranids - your guess is as good as mine as to how well that turns out, for either faction.

It does sounds like we might be getting Pri-Mephiston, though.

I look forward to Tyranids getting to pick their 'pick 2' trait list while BA's get a new powered up Mephiston, doctrines, super doctrine and a bunch of new relics and stratagems and probably something else because that is clearly not enough.

 Ordana wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Any news on what GW's next big move is?

Not sure about "big" move, but the next PA book is meant to be BA vs. Tyranids - your guess is as good as mine as to how well that turns out, for either faction.

It does sounds like we might be getting Pri-Mephiston, though.

I look forward to Tyranids getting to pick their 'pick 2' trait list while BA's get a new powered up Mephiston, doctrines, super doctrine and a bunch of new relics and stratagems and probably something else because that is clearly not enough.

Don't forget that the Codex Space Marines will "need" new stuff as well - they might as well just call them Marine Campaign books

Special rules for your Iron Hands death company!

I love the tag line everyone gets something. When it should read.

Everyone gets something, but marines get more.

Wait for the new Eldar codex, then you will see what overpowered means.

Too much moaning about Marines, they were in the same opposite situation months ago, when Drukhari, Astra or Craftworld were all much more better than Marines

Codex Supplements was a good idea with a bad implementation, this could be said for the entirety of 8th edition though. marines are mathematically badly designed. GW chose to stack rules on top of rules to mitigate this design flaw, it was super effective, however inconsistent between sm factions.

The design of having some factions, White Scars, etc Chapter rules trigger in the assault doctrine completely shows how for whatever reason taking this game seriously is just going to lead into bad times. Without anyway to start in the Assault Doctrine (Assault>Tactical>Devastator.)

No mistake. A decent move of GW.
But its true that the first Phoenix Rising book is crap as discussed elsewhere here.

 wuestenfux wrote:
No mistake. A decent move of GW.
But its true that the first Phoenix Rising book is crap as discussed elsewhere here.

I'd love to hear you elaborate on your reasoning. I'd like to be shown wrong.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Any news on what GW's next big move is?

It seems they're pretty much trying to squat all the other armies in the game so it's just 30K 2.0.

So I'm going with...More Marine stuff, then after that, more marines, followed by more marines, then maybe one Xenos model to let the White Knights have something to go "SeE tHEy dOnT OnLy Do MArinES!"

Followed by a new Marine thing.

This is so true it hurts. We’ve already seen the “B b b but Necrons had that one character in that boxed set that one time which is the same as what my [Chapter] has had really!!!!one” argument made by some of the more....creative Marine white knights.

I love the way the community is kicking off on Facebook, it’s about time GW had some feedback about their idiotic release schedule and preference for all things power armour. Hopefully they shelve the next 15 Marine models they were no doubt going to release next year and give Xenos factions a little love. Doubtful, but they can’t claim to be listening to the community otherwise.

They don’t listen. They claimed 8th was the edition “we asked for”. Shoot twice, fight twice, move twice, character targeting rules, 75+ autohits, who the hell were they listening to?

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Wait for the new Eldar codex, then you will see what overpowered means.

Too much moaning about Marines, they were in the same opposite situation months ago, when Drukhari, Astra or Craftworld were all much more better than Marines

And it will still be a bad thing.
The problem with "everyone else will get this buff in time" is that not only can you not say this for certain as GW has a bad track record. Its also a problem that 8th edition, through power creep was (and is) already entering into the area of 'to lethal'.

Stuff was already dying to fast before the new Marine codex dramatically upped the power level.
Its seen by GW having to try and fix it several times already with deepstrike limitations, the turn 1 cover stratagem for the player going 2nd ect.
The last thing 8th edition needed was stuff dying even faster as everyone gets buffed to compete with new Marines.

The fundamental thing I feel GW has got wrong: "the player base always wants new rules". Well, no, not if those new rules completely imba the game the players love. Rules are constantly leveraged to move product, rather than as an end in themselves. Until they start to treat their rules as an end in themselves, the game will suffer.

Having had such a massive success on their hands since the 8th reboot, GW need to tread a little more lightly because, especially in share prices, what goes up fast can also come down with a *bang*.

If I had any say GW would invest some of its huge profits on 1) an expert, autonomous, internal review team that oversaw the design process, the managers' role in that process, and a rigorous testing scheme; 2) a fantastic root-and-branch living game portal for list building and rule maintenance with a subscription system and; 3) honest-to-goodness competitive support along the lines X-Wing gets - close integration with the scene, fantastic prize support, etc. If they carry on down their current path, I have to say I am a bit worried that they'll cook the golden goose...

We will streamline 8th to make it more accessible for new players...

Goes full circle and re-introduces the 'Age of Decurion'

With CA, FAQs, Errata, etc., at this point someone new would pick up the BRB and respective codex and it is immediately out of date.

Face it, GW are addicted to rules bloat because it sells new books...I give you the complete gak show that is Psychic Awakening as an example.

Honestly I like the CSM rules from PA2.

Lots of flavour, some extremely powerful synergies and no stacking passive Legion buffs that radically alter how powerful units perform without some kind of opportunity cost like CP. It's a shame SM don't exist along exactly those same lines.

The new supplements add a lot of variety and distinctiveness to Space Marines making them feel much more than "Oh, these are Red or Blue or Yellow or Green or Black or Grey Space Marines" all using the same rules. It's like Skittles- they all look different, but taste the same. Now, it's much more like Starburst candy. Every color tastes different.

Its unfortunate that the other factions in the game don't get a similar treatment. Chaos comes close, and falls a bit short. Wouldn't it be great to see an Ork Clan book? Eldar Faction books? GW has proven they can give a faction a real identity, flavor and rules to match. They can also go a little too far with the rules (cough cough Iron Hands cough).

I wonder when 9th edition will be announced?

 Tamwulf wrote:
The new supplements add a lot of variety and distinctiveness to Space Marines making them feel much more than "Oh, these are Red or Blue or Yellow or Green or Black or Grey Space Marines" all using the same rules. It's like Skittles- they all look different, but taste the same. Now, it's much more like Starburst candy. Every color tastes different.

Its unfortunate that the other factions in the game don't get a similar treatment. Chaos comes close, and falls a bit short. Wouldn't it be great to see an Ork Clan book? Eldar Faction books? GW has proven they can give a faction a real identity, flavor and rules to match. They can also go a little too far with the rules (cough cough Iron Hands cough).

I wonder when 9th edition will be announced?

Faith and fury looks like it will make the legions feel distinct. At least until you run out of cp.

Just couldn't update those legion traits huh gw?

 Tamwulf wrote:
The new supplements add a lot of variety and distinctiveness to Space Marines making them feel much more than "Oh, these are Red or Blue or Yellow or Green or Black or Grey Space Marines" all using the same rules.

Combat Doctrines is terrible. It's just a flat AP buff with no decision making or counterplay.

Well, the somewhat sad thing is, in a non-competitive environment where people don't min/max and just sort of field their gak, the new SM and their supplements are not only fine, but dare I say it, possibly fun. They introduce a lot of different builds for SM to field, making them a more interesting army in general.

But once you start cranking your army up to 11, they are meta warping to the point of being miserable to play against.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
We will streamline 8th to make it more accessible for new players...

Goes full circle and re-introduces the 'Age of Decurion'

With CA, FAQs, Errata, etc., at this point someone new would pick up the BRB and respective codex and it is immediately out of date.

Face it, GW are addicted to rules bloat because it sells new books...I give you the complete gak show that is Psychic Awakening as an example.

Its a problem with GW's limited business model. Once they have released a codex for each army they are out of options and they need to either release a new edition with enough differences to redo all the codexes or they need to think of something else to bolt ontop of the game

Seems a good spot to drop this again.

To be fair in among all the wailing and gnashing of teeth with people tearing clumps of there hair out and flogging themselves with there own torn up xenos/cms codex it seems to have been forgotten that for the majority of there existence space marines have been decidedly mediocre and that’s being generous.

Yes they have been some good periods for marines but they tend towards boring monobuilds caused by unintended rules interactions unrelated to the actual codex.

A big chunk of the time Marines have been gak has been parallel to a xenos/csm army being hideously broken normally for months and sometimes years. Pretty much every army has had its period in the sun Necrons,Elder,Tau,CSM, GSC even Orks some of these have had multiple periods of glory others just crushed entire editions.

Yet marines get there first good rules for quite sometime and within hours every xenos player collectively lost there gak, I’m not counting CSM because there always like that. Watching Elder players whine was delightfully hypocritical and entertaining at the same time considering the then current flying circus meta and the fact they have been breaking the game in various ways for years.

There seems to have been some kind of mass hysteria but other than sour grapes I cannot see why, I mean I guess some tournament players are upset that playing against marines is no longer free victory points. Also some people who invested heavily in cheese armies that are hard countered by some marines would be unhappy. Ahhh actually yeah ok nvm it makes sense now

I think Space Marines have been good this edition already. Plus they were good last edition too (12 free razorbacks wtf). That's more than most factions have had in the spotlight.

SeanDrake wrote:
Seems a good spot to drop this again.

To be fair in among all the wailing and gnashing of teeth with people tearing clumps of there hair out and flogging themselves with there own torn up xenos/cms codex it seems to have been forgotten that for the majority of there existence space marines have been decidedly mediocre and that’s being generous.

Yes they have been some good periods for marines but they tend towards boring monobuilds caused by unintended rules interactions unrelated to the actual codex.

A big chunk of the time Marines have been gak has been parallel to a xenos/csm army being hideously broken normally for months and sometimes years. Pretty much every army has had its period in the sun Necrons,Elder,Tau,CSM, GSC even Orks some of these have had multiple periods of glory others just crushed entire editions.

Yet marines get there first good rules for quite sometime and within hours every xenos player collectively lost there gak, I’m not counting CSM because there always like that. Watching Elder players whine was delightfully hypocritical and entertaining at the same time considering the then current flying circus meta and the fact they have been breaking the game in various ways for years.

There seems to have been some kind of mass hysteria but other than sour grapes I cannot see why, I mean I guess some tournament players are upset that playing against marines is no longer free victory points. Also some people who invested heavily in cheese armies that are hard countered by some marines would be unhappy. Ahhh actually yeah ok nvm it makes sense now

No one here has denied that Space Marines needed a buff. The problem is the size of the buff is to big.
Aside from how false 'first good rules in quite sometime' is. Having a 60+% winrate is not good. Regardless of which faction has it.