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So, I was considering using Balthasar to "count as" Azrael. IMHO, he's a much better model for the head of the DA than the current Azrael model. But, what do the rules say about using something like Balthasar (from Dark Vengeance) as Azrael. Also, what about using Turmiel as Ezekiel? Other than the standard attached to his backpack, the Turmiel model is, once again, much nicer than the current Ezekiel model. But, again, I have to ask about the rules. Is something like this legal? I have a feeling that in a casual game, no one would care. But, if I was to take the army to a tournament to play for fun, would both most likely be shot down as "counts as" their older model counterparts?

Thanks

GS

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, I was considering using Balthasar to "count as" Azrael. IMHO, he's a much better model for the head of the DA than the current Azrael model. But, what do the rules say about using something like Balthasar (from Dark Vengeance) as Azrael. Also, what about using Turmiel as Ezekiel? Other than the standard attached to his backpack, the Turmiel model is, once again, much nicer than the current Ezekiel model. But, again, I have to ask about the rules. Is something like this legal? I have a feeling that in a casual game, no one would care. But, if I was to take the army to a tournament to play for fun, would both most likely be shot down as "counts as" their older model counterparts?

Thanks

GS

If you want the actual RaW answer:
You cannot use an incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You must use the correct Citadel™ Miniature to represent the correct Datasheet.

As for tournaments:
Ask the TO, their word is law. They can choose to ban Pink Models or only allow models with Goblin Green Unflocked bases, such is their remit. We cannot offer any guidance here.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, I was considering using Balthasar to "count as" Azrael. IMHO, he's a much better model for the head of the DA than the current Azrael model. But, what do the rules say about using something like Balthasar (from Dark Vengeance) as Azrael. Also, what about using Turmiel as Ezekiel? Other than the standard attached to his backpack, the Turmiel model is, once again, much nicer than the current Ezekiel model. But, again, I have to ask about the rules. Is something like this legal? I have a feeling that in a casual game, no one would care. But, if I was to take the army to a tournament to play for fun, would both most likely be shot down as "counts as" their older model counterparts?

Thanks

GS

If you want the actual RaW answer:
You cannot use an incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You must use the correct Citadel™ Miniature to represent the correct Datasheet.

B... b... but WYSIWYG is not a real rule though.

 skchsan wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, I was considering using Balthasar to "count as" Azrael. IMHO, he's a much better model for the head of the DA than the current Azrael model. But, what do the rules say about using something like Balthasar (from Dark Vengeance) as Azrael. Also, what about using Turmiel as Ezekiel? Other than the standard attached to his backpack, the Turmiel model is, once again, much nicer than the current Ezekiel model. But, again, I have to ask about the rules. Is something like this legal? I have a feeling that in a casual game, no one would care. But, if I was to take the army to a tournament to play for fun, would both most likely be shot down as "counts as" their older model counterparts?

Thanks

GS

If you want the actual RaW answer:
You cannot use an incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You must use the correct Citadel™ Miniature to represent the correct Datasheet.

B... b... but WYSIWYG is not a real rule though.

You are correct, WYSIWYG is not a rule. However, as was kindly pointed out to me by JohnnyHell and others, you are required to use the correct Citadel™ Miniature to represent a datasheet. The miniature doesn't have to be WYSIWYG, but it must be the correct miniature.

You can have a Big Mek with SAG without the SAG modeled, you cannot use a Primaris™ Intercessor™ Sergeant™ to represent a Big Mek with SAG.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You can have a Big Mek with SAG without the SAG modeled, you cannot use a Primaris™ Intercessor™ Sergeant™ to represent a Big Mek with SAG.

I agree with you completely on this point. Here's the issue, though. Granted, Balthasar doesn't have a Watcher In The Dark that carries his helmet around. But, otherwise, Balthasar is a really good GW/Citadel model that does an excellent job looking like a grand master of a chapter. Other than the standard, Turmiel is nearly identical in what he carries as Ezekiel.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You can have a Big Mek with SAG without the SAG modeled, you cannot use a Primaris™ Intercessor™ Sergeant™ to represent a Big Mek with SAG.

I agree with you completely on this point. Here's the issue, though. Granted, Balthasar doesn't have a Watcher In The Dark that carries his helmet around. But, otherwise, Balthasar is a really good GW/Citadel model that does an excellent job looking like a grand master of a chapter. Other than the standard, Turmiel is nearly identical in what he carries as Ezekiel.

SG

Sadly that is irrelevant when it comes to the rules. As far as the rules are concerned, if you want to use the Azrael datasheet, you need to use the Azrael Citadel™ Miniature. That being said, 99.99% of people don't follow the RaW anyway so probably won't have any issue with Rule of Cool model replacements.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sadly that is irrelevant when it comes to the rules. As far as the rules are concerned, if you want to use the Azrael datasheet, you need to use the Azrael Citadel™ Miniature. That being said, 99.99% of people don't follow the RaW anyway so probably won't have any issue with Rule of Cool model replacements.

Again, good point. Thank you!

SG

Balthazar has a sword, combi plasma and a Lion Helm.... Go to town, he is fine.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, I was considering using Balthasar to "count as" Azrael. IMHO, he's a much better model for the head of the DA than the current Azrael model. But, what do the rules say about using something like Balthasar (from Dark Vengeance) as Azrael. Also, what about using Turmiel as Ezekiel? Other than the standard attached to his backpack, the Turmiel model is, once again, much nicer than the current Ezekiel model. But, again, I have to ask about the rules. Is something like this legal? I have a feeling that in a casual game, no one would care. But, if I was to take the army to a tournament to play for fun, would both most likely be shot down as "counts as" their older model counterparts?

Thanks

GS

If you want the actual RaW answer:
You cannot use an incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You must use the correct Citadel™ Miniature to represent the correct Datasheet.

B... b... but WYSIWYG is not a real rule though.

You are correct, WYSIWYG is not a rule. However, as was kindly pointed out to me by JohnnyHell and others, you are required to use the correct Citadel™ Miniature to represent a datasheet. The miniature doesn't have to be WYSIWYG, but it must be the correct miniature.

You can have a Big Mek with SAG without the SAG modeled, you cannot use a Primaris™ Intercessor™ Sergeant™ to represent a Big Mek with SAG.

Sigh. Stop misrepresenting both the rules and prior conversations... from months and months ago I might add. Stop derailing threads where people ask for genuine advice with bizarre soapboxing. It’s simply tedious. That you’ve pivoted from being told one position you held was untenable to adopting similarly not-rules-supported posturing is... well, it’s a choice you’ve made. I’ll leave it at that. Your baiting attempt is noted and rejected.

OP: Datasheets represent models, not the other way around. If you make a conversion of Azrael, use the Datasheet for Azrael. It’s not rocket science, unless you’re hellbent in polluting the utility of this forum. Between friends yes, use those models. No fun police will stop you. Whatever BaconCatBig believes is irrelevant. Tournaments have their own house rules anyway so the 40K rules don’t cover those instances.

I’ve converted that model to Azrael myself, adding an unhelmeted head, sculpting hair and the distinctive rebreather-type mouthpiece/cabling. It’s a perfect counts-as model, and is often acknowledged as such online. Similarly the Librarian as a perfect counts-as Ezekiel. It’s entirely fine to use these models as you suggest. Heck, I even use the Terminator Sergeant as Belial, as it’s more ornate than most of my Deathwing. Never had a single person I’ve played protest. They usually just say “cool conversion” and we play Warhammer. Certainly beats wasting time arguing with the intractable online.