Should Black Templars retain access to the IF Supplement?

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**Vankraken**

Could someone explain it to me why it matters if a "chapter" in the game is a successor chapter or the first founding?

**a_typical_hero**

If you are a successor chapter, you get the "super doctrine" of your your first founding parent chapter.

Black Templars are a successor chapter in the fluff, but at the same time have their own super doctrine already.

People argue wether or not Black Templars get the benefit of having two super doctrines (and being the only Marine faction in the game that would have it)

**MrMoustaffa**

Don't get me wrong, black Templar are not the strongest, but if you give them the Imperial Fist rules on top of their own, well... What's the point of imperial fists then? Because even if black Templar stuff isn't amazing its on top of IF stuff aside from a few hero units.

**TwinPoleTheory**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Don't get me wrong, black Templar are not the strongest, but if you give them the Imperial Fist rules on top of their own, well... What's the point of imperial fists then? Because even if black Templar stuff isn't amazing its on top of IF stuff aside from a few hero units.

Librarians?

**Nightlord1987**

Wasnt aware that the crusading Black Templars were the .masters of fortification and defense...

**AlmightyWalrus**

BrianDavion wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Fair to say you are implying a logic that is directly countered by the fact they get their own super doctrine.

Stop looking for ways to apply more free rules to your units. It is quite obvious that black Templar have their own chapter rules and are not in fact anything like the imperial fist.

Explain why the Special Issue Wargear is missing for Black Templars when everyone else, including the Crimson Fists (who are a successor Chapter last I looked) get them? Why does every other Successor Chapter in existence (including Crimson Fists) get the ability to buy a relic from their parent Chapter?

I don't think GW intends to let Black Templars use the Fists super doctrine, but I also don't think they intended Black Templars to not follow literally every other Chapter in C:SM in having access to some of the stuff.

BECAUSE BLACK TEMPLARS DO HAVE SPECIAL ISSUE WARGEAR. read their BT tactica article. and do some thinking. special issue wargear is a thing because most sucessor chapters lack their own relics etc.

Burn (Shoot or Stab) the Witch!
If there’s one thing that Black Templars can’t stand, it’s witches.** By ‘witches’, we of course mean rogue psykers, though if we’re being honest, they’re not exactly keen on sanctioned ones either! They may still rely on Navigators to guide their crusading fleets through the warp, but they won’t allow any psykers within their own ranks under any circumstances. However, the Black Templars more than make up for this fact by being REALLY good at killing psykers. Like, super-good! Take this neat combo, for example…

For a single Command Point, you can bestow a Chapter Relic – or, more specifically, one of three Crusade Relics – upon a Sword Brother or Sergeant. In this case, we’re talking an Intercessor Sergeant equipped with a stalker bolt rifle. Make sure he’s armed with Witchseeker Bolts and your improvised ‘witch sniper’ will not only be free to target their Psyker of choice, but can potentially inflict 5 wounds with a single shot!

this sure as feth LOOKS like special issue war gear. it's called something differant yeah but the idea is the same.
anyway Templars I could see being FAQed to get access to IF special issue wargear, but even that I doubt. until GW says seperate the sane and safe approuch is to choose 1 or the other

Crimson Fists get their own relics and still get the special issue wargear. What's your point?

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Don't get me wrong, black Templar are not the strongest, but if you give them the Imperial Fist rules on top of their own, well... What's the point of imperial fists then? Because even if black Templar stuff isn't amazing its on top of IF stuff aside from a few hero units.

Siegebreaker Cohort and a Chapter Tactic that synergizes better with a bunch of the stratagems. I don't think Templars should have the super doctrine though.

**Vankraken**

a_typical_hero wrote:
If you are a successor chapter, you get the "super doctrine" of your your first founding parent chapter.

Black Templars are a successor chapter in the fluff, but at the same time have their own super doctrine already.

People argue wether or not Black Templars get the benefit of having two super doctrines (and being the only Marine faction in the game that would have it)

I guess the thing is why is it put that way in game mechanics terms? In 7th if you ran your "Space Potatoes" with Ultramarines chapter tactics they just got the benefit of those tactics. Why does it matter if your Marines are Ultramarines™ vs being Nova Marines, Inverted Colts Fans, Space Crayon Eaters, or any other user created chapter and want to use a chapter tactics rule set? Just seems convoluted to have some sort of differentiation between a first founding and a chapter using their chapter tactics.

**The Newman**

Vankraken wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
If you are a successor chapter, you get the "super doctrine" of your your first founding parent chapter.

Black Templars are a successor chapter in the fluff, but at the same time have their own super doctrine already.

People argue wether or not Black Templars get the benefit of having two super doctrines (and being the only Marine faction in the game that would have it)

I guess the thing is why is it put that way in game mechanics terms? In 7th if you ran your "Space Potatoes" with Ultramarines chapter tactics they just got the benefit of those tactics. Why does it matter if your Marines are Ultramarines™ vs being Nova Marines, Inverted Colts Fans, Space Crayon Eaters, or any other user created chapter and want to use a chapter tactics rule set? Just seems convoluted to have some sort of differentiation between a first founding and a chapter using their chapter tactics.

It's to allow for picking either the Ultramarine tactic or any two of the successor sub-tactics to go with the rest of the UM rules and also to reward hobbyists who went out of their way to paint one of the "official" chapters with cheaper relics and access to the special named characters, without having to worry about whether the Iron Hands chapter tactic would be broken with the Ultramarine super doctrine or if Magnus Calgar breaks Extended Range Marksmen or whatever.

**Zustiur**

Xenomancer, don't get me wrong. I'm not in favour of Black Templars getting two super doctrines. I just don't see any rule evidence to prevent it currently. I expect the FAQ will sort that out in a few weeks. Until then, we seem to be arguing about the impact of a book that hasn't been released yet. Again.

**Crazyterran**

Black Templar don't have successors of their own, so why would they need a Special Issue Wargear page? That page is intended for Successors, even if the first founding can use it as well.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Crimson Fists don't have sucessors and they have access to the Special Issue Wargear despite having unique relics of their own.